Terracing

[Chappers]

In my opinion, standing should never have been abandoned. The Taylor Report actually made a lot of recommendation, but the Press only picked up on the All-Seater bit for some reason. The Hillsborough disaster was not caused by terracing, but by the terrace being segregated into 3 pens, and no specification which pen to enter. I was at the City game at Hillsborough not long after, and on entering the Leppings Lane enttrance, the obvious route is to the centre pen, hence the crush in that area. This all got overlooked in the desire for a knee-jerk reaction, and Club Chairman hoping for extra revenue from the seats.

As for lack of comfort, try the back of the Williams - The seats were designed for Kate Moss lookalikes, and with a few 'portly' people in my row (Myself included), the comfort factor is not evident! The biggest obstacle to terraces returning is the current breed of clueless Politicians from all of the major parties, who are far removed from reality and will not listen to the electorate. The second biggest obstacles are Club Chairmen who don't seem to grasp the simple fact that supporters are customers.

[Somertonian]

I prefer to stand. However, it is pure selfishness to stand in a seated area ignoring the desires of those behind.

I'm sure safe standing areas could be included in the design of new stadiums. Older stadiums may be adapted too. The large standing terraces of yesteryear will never come back IMHO. Whilst not dangerous in themselves (just look at the huge numbers that used to safely stand and watch football), combined with the stupidity and poor behaviour of some of today's supporters, the risk of crushes is simply too great.

As for supporters turning up without tickets, if Michael Eavis can solve the issue for Glastonbury festival I'm sure it can be solved for football. The risk of a Hillsborough style disaster was probably eliminated by the removal of the cages that held supporters in.

My earlier reference to events in Italy and Spain was meant to highlight the mob mentality of the so-called supporters. It seems obvious to me that the old terraces would accommodate many more supporters and would allow the troublemakers to group together to feed off each other's encouragement when things turn nasty.

Good luck with the campaign.

S

[Chappers]

the stupidity and poor behaviour of some of today's supporters

would allow the troublemakers to group together to feed off each other's encouragement when things turn nasty

Not stereo-typing football supporters then! Visit any City Centre on a saturday night and you will see far more aggression and stupidity than you will ever see at football - But we don't have all-seater Pubs. Or all-seater night-clubs! Football has cleaned its act up considerably since the 80's, and trotting out the hooligan myth does not do anyone any favours. I see worse conduct on a Works night out than at football!

As regards tickets, this is a myth - In nearly 30 years of watching City, I have never seen large numbers of ticketless fans turning up, and I am not aware of it happening elsewhere either. A convenient excuse to trot out for any muck ip by Club or Police. I can remember a game v The Sags where fans WITH tickets could not get in.......

As regards

the risk of crushes is simply too great

- Why is this permitted every day on our pathetic privatised shambles of a railway, but too great a risk at football? I know where I feel safer!

[Flaxbourton Red]

I prefer to stand. However, it is pure selfishness to stand in a seated area ignoring the desires of those behind.

I'm sure safe standing areas could be included in the design of new stadiums. Older stadiums may be adapted too. The large standing terraces of yesteryear will never come back IMHO. Whilst not dangerous in themselves (just look at the huge numbers that used to safely stand and watch football), combined with the stupidity and poor behaviour of some of today's supporters, the risk of crushes is simply too great.

As for supporters turning up without tickets, if Michael Eavis can solve the issue for Glastonbury festival I'm sure it can be solved for football. The risk of a Hillsborough style disaster was probably eliminated by the removal of the cages that held supporters in.

My earlier reference to events in Italy and Spain was meant to highlight the mob mentality of the so-called supporters. It seems obvious to me that the old terraces would accommodate many more supporters and would allow the troublemakers to group together to feed off each other's encouragement when things turn nasty.

why don't you read up more on hillsborough?

Read David Conn's books "The beautiful game" or "The football business", don't try to make arguements up without knowing the full facts.

[Barry]

why don't you read up more on hillsborough?

Read David Conn's books "The beautiful game" or "The football business", don't try to make arguements up without knowing the full facts.

not knowing much about the incident myself i thought i would do some research:

"Between 2.00pm and 2.45pm there was a considerable build-up of fans (many of whom did not have tickets) in the small area outside the turnstile entrances to the Leppings Lane End, all eager to enter the stadium quickly before the match started. A bottleneck developed with more fans arriving than were able to enter the stadium. With an estimated 5,000 fans trying to get through the turnstiles and increasing security concerns over crushing outside the turnstiles, the police decided to open up a set of gates, intended as an exit, which did not have turnstiles (Gate C). This caused a rush of people through the gate into the stadium."

"police or stewards would normally stand at the entrance to the tunnel if these central pens had reached capacity and would direct fans to the side pens, but on this occasion did not, for reasons which have never been adequately explained."

"A police spokesman said orders were given for the gate to the stand to be opened because they believed the pressure of fans outside the ground was "a danger to life".

to me this just seems, the combination of shocking policing and stewarding aswell as poor ticket allocation AND NOT TERRACING lead to this tragedy

[WessexPest]

I think the case for terracing making for better atmosphere is vastly overstated.

Get this: Ibrox Stadium as been basically all-seated sine the late 1970s yet it is still one of the most intimidating arenas in European football on its day; I think it was Nick Hornby who admitted in his book 'Fever Pitch' that an all-seated Ibrox generated a far better atmosphere than a terraced North Bank or Clock End ever did.

I must admit when I watch old English matches on ESPN Classic (they even show City sometimes!) that I feel a pang of nostalgia to see massive banks of standing fans surging forward at a goal but the game has evolved since then and I'd be astonished if things went backwards. By and large football fans demand better facilities now they no longer pay a nominal fee to watch games. I for one would not pay £30 to be crushed into a tiny space, surge over every inch of concrete then pop out the ground like a cork from a champagne bottle, and have some neanderthal urinate on the back of my legs (but enough of my personal kinks...)

I'm not saying it would definitely happen but can you imagine somewhere along the line of there was a fatality on a terrace? The criticism of the people who had let the game regress in this manner would be unimaginable.

Terraces are a thing of the past in this country and on balance, I can't say I miss them.

[WessexPest]

Football has cleaned its act up considerably since the 80's

Yes, so let's not undo all that good work.

[Flaxbourton Red]

I think the case for terracing making for better atmosphere is vastly overstated.

Get this: Ibrox Stadium as been basically all-seated sine the late 1970s yet it is still one of the most intimidating arenas in European football on its day; I think it was Nick Hornby who admitted in his book 'Fever Pitch' that an all-seated Ibrox generated a far better atmosphere than a terraced North Bank or Clock End ever did.

I must admit when I watch old English matches on ESPN Classic (they even show City sometimes!) that I feel a pang of nostalgia to see massive banks of standing fans surging forward at a goal but the game has evolved since then and I'd be astonished if things went backwards. By and large football fans demand better facilities now they no longer pay a nominal fee to watch games. I for one would not pay £30 to be crushed into a tiny space, surge over every inch of concrete then pop out the ground like a cork from a champagne bottle, and have some neanderthal urinate on the back of my legs (but enough of my personal kinks...)

I'm not saying it would definitely happen but can you imagine somewhere along the line of there was a fatality on a terrace? The criticism of the people who had let the game regress in this manner would be unimaginable.

Terraces are a thing of the past in this country and on balance, I can't say I miss them.

a highly cliched take on terracing, which is not bears little resemblence to the reality of the Westland terrace at yeovil, the Blackthorne end at the rugby ground, s****horpe are any other existing terrace. Current health and safety guidence on terracing alone would not permit a timewarp style return to the 1970s.

Life on Mars is fiction.

[WessexPest]

a highly cliched take on terracing, which is not bears little resemblence to the reality of the Westland terrace at yeovil, the Blackthorne end at the rugby ground, s****horpe are any other existing terrace. Current health and safety guidence on terracing alone would not permit a timewarp style return to the 1970s.

Life on Mars is fiction.

Maybe, but like all cliches it is completely true

I don't see why some people are so desperate for the return of this?

[Flaxbourton Red]

Maybe, but like all cliches it is completely true

I don't see why some people are so desperate for the return of this?

time for some more cliches

"The wrong thing to do about any given circumstance or situation is to do nothing.

Never regret yesterday. Life is in you today, and you make your tomorrow".

I think people simply want live football to be more enjoyable.

[WTFiGO!?!]

I think the case for terracing making for better atmosphere is vastly overstated.

Get this: Ibrox Stadium as been basically all-seated sine the late 1970s yet it is still one of the most intimidating arenas in European football on its day; I think it was Nick Hornby who admitted in his book 'Fever Pitch' that an all-seated Ibrox generated a far better atmosphere than a terraced North Bank or Clock End ever did.

I must admit when I watch old English matches on ESPN Classic (they even show City sometimes!) that I feel a pang of nostalgia to see massive banks of standing fans surging forward at a goal but the game has evolved since then and I'd be astonished if things went backwards. By and large football fans demand better facilities now they no longer pay a nominal fee to watch games. I for one would not pay £30 to be crushed into a tiny space, surge over every inch of concrete then pop out the ground like a cork from a champagne bottle, and have some neanderthal urinate on the back of my legs (but enough of my personal kinks...)

I'm not saying it would definitely happen but can you imagine somewhere along the line of there was a fatality on a terrace? The criticism of the people who had let the game regress in this manner would be unimaginable.

Terraces are a thing of the past in this country and on balance, I can't say I miss them.

Yep, indeed.

We're not though talking about Ibrox in the late 70's, we're not talking about the authoretie's incompetence allowing 96 people to crush to death in the Leppings Lane end, we're not talking about mindless folk urination against the back of a chap's legs.

What we're talking about is Football and the year 2007 where AG not only fails to produce an intimidating atmosphere but fails to produce any atmosphere worthwhile of any mention at all.

I stand, I get thoroughly involved (R*vers away being a recent example. The opening of the EE also), I sit and I get bored, me mind wonders off.

Just to say also that that now is the age that Football has become a consumer commersialised comodety and so obviously capitalism not community is the focus.

Traditionally minded Football fan's perspectives' are not therefore deemed a second look.

Are we just s'pose to sit back and let our way be unscrupilously whored?.... all fun gone - giant foam hands and silly wigs being the replacement? .... I for one sure as hell can't do it.

This won't go away.

[RedTop]

By far and away the best atmosphere this season has not been at Yeovil (where the atmosphere was distinctly and disappointingly flat), Chesterfield or any other ground with terracing, it was at Forest and Swansea.

Both all-seater. Not sure about Forest, but Swansea has no non-reserved area. Atmosphere is not created by people standing or sitting. It's created by having large numbers of people in a ground who care because the game means something - at Forest because both teams knew it was likely to be one of the tougest tests of the season and basically a 'six-pointer' and at Swansea because of all the usual nationalism and traditional antagonism between the clubs etc.

Although I think people are frankly bonkers to want to stand to watch a game they could get a better view of sitting down without any associated leg-ache, I have no inherent objection provided they are prepared to pay the same price that they would to sit. However, as I've argued before, trying to link standing to the lack of atmosphere at The Gate is a red herring which only detracts from attempts to try to improve it, since you can't solve a problem unless you diagnose exactly where the seat of the problem is (no pun intended).

In terms of atmosphere, I can see an argument for a non-reserved area where singers can congregate. I can see an argument for having City fans on all four sides of the ground. But standing up or sitting down surely makes no inherent difference. Surely it's not the posture that determines whether people sing, it's the people themselves?

[WTFiGO!?!]

By far and away the best atmosphere this season has not been at Yeovil (where the atmosphere was distinctly and disappointingly flat), Chesterfield or any other ground with terracing, it was at Forest and Swansea.

Both all-seater. Not sure about Forest, but Swansea has no non-reserved area. Atmosphere is not created by people standing or sitting. It's created by having large numbers of people in a ground who care because the game means something - at Forest because both teams knew it was likely to be one of the tougest tests of the season and basically a 'six-pointer' and at Swansea because of all the usual nationalism and traditional antagonism between the clubs etc.

Although I think people are frankly bonkers to want to stand to watch a game they could get a better view of sitting down without any associated leg-ache, I have no inherent objection provided they are prepared to pay the same price that they would to sit. However, as I've argued before, trying to link standing to the lack of atmosphere at The Gate is a red herring which only detracts from attempts to try to improve it, since you can't solve a problem unless you diagnose exactly where the seat of the problem is (no pun intended).

In terms of atmosphere, I can see an argument for a non-reserved area where singers can congregate. I can see an argument for having City fans on all four sides of the ground. But standing up or sitting down surely makes no inherent difference. Surely it's not the posture that determines whether people sing, it's the people themselves?

Did you notice any difference in atmospheric terms for the Brentford game?

(it's a eutorical question - if that's the word journo?)

[RedTop]

Did you notice any difference in atmospheric terms for the Brentford game?

(it's a eutorical question - if that's the word journo?)

It was obvious that those in the EE were having fun and singing, and good luck to you all, though I've already stated that in my opinion the price of entry to the EE should cover any additional policing costs because it makes no sense to me for a loss-making club to have to fund extra policing, stewards etc when there are plenty of seats available in the rest of the ground (obviously the argument is different when it is used as an overflow at games where the stadium is packed). But if your argument is that the EE produced a better atmosphere then that's not an argument for terracing. It's an argument in favour of non-reserved seating in an all-seater stadium, surely?

[Rampant Robert]

It was obvious that those in the EE were having fun and singing, and good luck to you all, though I've already stated that in my opinion the price of entry to the EE should cover any additional policing costs because it makes no sense to me for a loss-making club to have to fund extra policing, stewards etc when there are plenty of seats available in the rest of the ground (obviously the argument is different when it is used as an overflow at games where the stadium is packed). But if your argument is that the EE produced a better atmosphere then that's not an argument for terracing. It's an argument in favour of non-reserved seating in an all-seater stadium, surely?

In the current climate unreserved seating is the best that us that prefer to stand can hope for, after all , the government arent going to say 'sod it, rip all the seats out' if priced to cover extra policing etc are you saying you would agree with the east end being opened for those that want it?

[Blagdon red]

In the current climate unreserved seating is the best that us that prefer to stand can hope for, after all , the government arent going to say 'sod it, rip all the seats out' if priced to cover extra policing etc are you saying you would agree with the east end being opened for those that want it?

Let me repeat: the ban on standing at football games is NOT an act of parliament. The Football Spectators Act of 1989 merely stipulates that grounds in the top two divisions have to be all-seater. It is the Football Licensing Authority, guided by the Secretary of State, that currently dictates that all spectators should sit. Were the Secretary of State to provide advice to the contrary, this could change overnight.

Standing in stands designed for seating is clearly unsafe. As many fans clearly prefer to stand, it follows that areas that are safe for standing should therefore be provided. E.g. 10% of a stadium as shown below:

[Rampant Robert]

Let me repeat: the ban on standing at football games is NOT an act of parliament. The Football Spectators Act of 1989 merely stipulates that grounds in the top two divisions have to be all-seater. It is the Football Licensing Authority, guided by the Secretary of State, that currently dictates that all spectators should sit. Were the Secretary of State to provide advice to the contrary, this could change overnight.

Standing in stands designed for seating is clearly unsafe. As many fans clearly prefer to stand, it follows that areas that are safe for standing should therefore be provided. E.g. 10% of a stadium as shown below:

Agreed, & as we all know its been proven to work in Germany. My point is, no matter how much sense it makes it aint going to happen any time soon here. Id love to be proved wrong but I cant see it.

[WTFiGO!?!]

It was obvious that those in the EE were having fun and singing, and good luck to you all, though I've already stated that in my opinion the price of entry to the EE should cover any additional policing costs because it makes no sense to me for a loss-making club to have to fund extra policing, stewards etc when there are plenty of seats available in the rest of the ground (obviously the argument is different when it is used as an overflow at games where the stadium is packed). But if your argument is that the EE produced a better atmosphere then that's not an argument for terracing. It's an argument in favour of non-reserved seating in an all-seater stadium, surely?

StevieL himself stated that cost isn't the issue (even if it were, the argument then would be that the A+S constabulary is simply holding our Club to ransom, imo.) Look around the Country, you may shamlessly claim the contrary but the police presence here is OTT.

I do agree though that this here terracing (Giving people choice - a matter with the secretary of state) debate should not be confused with the big BCFC matter. I only used it as an example to illustrate that folk shhh now: stood in the EE and that did transform the usual old folks' home atmosphere.

I, as along with everybody else (I pressume) has no gripe paying Atyeo prices to stand or at least be situated in our promised land stand btw.

[cider head]

Unfortunately, when...

* fans turn up without tickets or

* fans turn up with forged tickets

* turnstile operators let their mates in or

* turnstile operators take cash

* etc

... this leads to disasters such as Hillsborough.

Muppets at the back of the terrace surge forward and cause the people at the front of the terrace to be crushed (often kids and elderly supporters who cannot resist the pressure).

It's fans who closed the terraces - not the 'powers that be'.

Terracing can be safe but the control measures that would be required would probably have people crying out for their human rights.

S

hmmmmmmmmmmmm

FACT-SHEET TWO: HILLSBOROUGH AND THE TAYLOR REPORT

April 15th 1989, saw the worst disaster in the history of English football; 96 Liverpool fans

attending their team's FA Cup semi-final against Nottingham Forest at Sheffield Wednesday's

ground, Hillsborough, were crushed to death on the Leppings Lane terrace, and English

football would never be the same again.

The disaster was basically caused by the failure of South Yorkshire Police to control a large

crowd of Liverpool fans outside the Leppings Lane End, and the poor state of the ground,

but it was also clear that football's total failure to learn from the numerous disasters that had

afflicted it during the twentieth century, and a police force conditioned to view supporters as

potential hooligans and so always expecting violence, contributed significantly to the 96 deaths

and many hundreds of injuries.

WHAT HAPPENED ON THE DAY?

Liverpool had been allocated the Leppings Lane End of the ground, and it was outside this end from,

about 2.30pm that a large crowd of fans had built up. Fans were also delayed on their way to the

game by roadworks on the M62 motorway. Warnings issued as far back as 1927 about the need to

prevent a large build-up of supporters were ignored, and a sizeable crowd of thousands of Liverpool

fans was allowed to build up outside the Leppings Lane End, leading to increasing congestion and

then crushing at the front. Stewarding was also described as poor at this end of the ground.

The police later claimed that fans had been drinking excessively.

The Leppings Lane gates led into a concourse: from this, fans could enter a main tunnel that

fed into pens three and four of the terrace. Additionally, there were access points to the left and

right of the tunnel that led to the other pens on the Leppings Lane terrace. As the sections

immediately behind the goal, pens three and four were the most popular and were already full

over twenty minutes before kick-off, a fact noticed by BBC commentators in their build-up to the

game, and by match commander Chief Superintendent David Duckinfield watching events from

the police control box. Meanwhile, the crowd outside continued to build, with little effort made to

prevent the numbers outside the gates swelling any further: the crushing outside was becoming

progressively worse, police horses were becoming agitated, and 2.47pm, thirteen minutes before

kick-off, police officers outside the Leppings Lane End radioed to Duckinfield (in charge of his first

major match), informing him that the crushing was becoming severe, and that people were going

to die if the gates were not opened to relieve the pressure. After a brief delay, Duckinfield ordered

that Gate C be opened, and close on 2,000 Liverpool fans were directed through the gates into

the concourse.

By now however, pens three and four were already over-congested; fans streamed into the tunnel,

and then into pens three and four, creating a massive crush and trapping supporters at the front of

the pens against the steel perimeter fence. Some estimates claim that there were twice the number

of supporters in pens three and four than they were designed to cope with. The resultant crush

became unbearable, with the fans at the back unable to see that the pens were already full, and

the fans at the front already starting to show signs of distress and asphixiation.

Fans started to try and climb the fences to escape the pens, and some were lifted out of the pens

by supporters in the tier above the terrace, but the crushing was becoming fatal as the game kicked

off. Fans tried to attract the attention of police officers, but were unable to do so, and later complained

that some supporters trying to escape the pens had been pushed back into the crowd by officers

who seemed to think they were dealing with an attempted pitch invasion. Other fans reported shouting

to police officers to open the gates, but simply being ignored. By 3.05pm, fans managed to alert

Liverpool goalkeeper Bruce Grobbelaar, who in turn pointed out the problem to the referee, as fans

were already making their way over the fences before collapsing on the side of the pitch.

The players were taken off at 3.06, and the emergency operation began, with Liverpool fans ripping

up advertising hoardings to use as stretchers. It was becoming clear that this was going to be a major

disaster, and there was later criticism of police officers who stood in a line across the half-way line,

apparently to prevent any "charge" by Liverpool fans against the Forest supporters at the other end

of the ground. Other junior officers climbed from pen two into pen three in an effort to help the victims

by now piled up everywhere inside the pen, while others desperately tried to pull down the perimeter

fence.

The game was abandoned at half-time, with fans, junior police officers and the emergency services

still trying to get the injured to hospital, with some people still being admitted as late as 4pm. But in

total, 95 fans died in the next couple of days, young, old, male, female. One more supporter, Tony

Bland, died after spending four years on a ventilator machine.

At 3.15pm, Graham Kelly, chief executive of the Football Association, had gone to the police control

box, where he was told by Duckinfield that Liverpool fans had rushed the gate into the ground, creating

the fatal crush in pens three and four, despite the fact that he had ordered the gate opened.

At 4.15pm, Kelly was interviewed by the BBC, and he told them the police had implied to him that the

gates had been opened unauthorised. The story flashed around the world that drunken Liverpool fans

had forced the gates open, and it was splashed all over the newspapers the following morning.

The suggestion that Liverpool fans were responsible for the disaster was picked up most strongly later

that week by the 'Sun' newspaper, who ran maybe their most infamous headline on the personal

instruction of editor Kelvin McKenzie. Acting on information from unnamed police officers, and entitled

"The Truth", the 'Sun' claimed that drunken fans had forced the gates open because they did not have

match-tickets, that they stolen from the corpses lying on the pitch, assaulted police officers and the

emergency services, stolen cameras and other equipment from press photographers, and urinated on

police officers helping the victims. Months later, the "Sun" admitted that the allegations were totally false,

but it had already generated headlines all over the world, and the damage had been done.

THE TAYLOR REPORTS

The failure to close or block the tunnel leading into the already full pens three and four once the police

had ordered Gate C to be opened was the immediate cause of the disaster, but the public inquiries set

up by the Thatcher Government under Lord Justice Peter Taylor found, more generally, that football had

simply not learned anything from the numerous disasters in its past, that it and the police were so

obsessed with the threat of violence that they were unable to spot people in genuine danger of their lives,

that police fundamentally lost control of the situation, and did not demonstrate the leadership expected

of senior officers, that safety procedures were inadequate, that the ground was badly maintained and

dangerous, that fans were routinely treated with contempt by football, and that fans had been the victims

rather the guilty party. His reports, published in August 1989 and January 1990, dismissed the allegations

against Liverpool supporters for the disaster, and called instead for a total rethink in the industry's attitudes

towards fans, and on the issue of safety. It also highlighted the failures by local authorities to check

safety certificates for stadia (Sheffield Wednesday had redeveloped parts of the ground without obtaining

a new safety certificate, or telling the emergency services: the result was that the safety certificate was

outdated and useless, and that plans Sheffield Wednesday had developed with the local emergency

services could not be put into practice, as the layout of the ground had changed).

Specifically, Taylor recommended the closure of terraces at all grounds, new safety measures on exits

and entrances, and a new advisory committee on stadium design to ensure that best practice was followed.

Crucially, Taylor also recommended that the Government's Identity Card scheme (whereby all fans would

have to have a membership card to get into a ground) be dropped, on grounds of safety, a suggestion

that the Government reluctantly carried out. Taylor's report did not have the force of law, and not all his

recommendations were carried out, but his work in identifying the wider reasons for the disaster has been

acknowledged as one of the most significant turning points in the history of English football. The result

was the total transformation of British stadia, paid for in large part by tax-payers' money, with terraces at

grounds in the top two divisions closed by May 1994, and new safety regulations and regimes put in place

at every stadium.

WHAT HAS HAPPENED SINCE 1989?

The controversy over the disaster has not subsided: Thatcher's Press Secretary, Bernard Ingham, has

frequently repeated the allegations made by the 'Sun', as did Brian Clough (Nottingham Forest manager

on the day of the disaster) some five years later; a boycott of the 'Sun' on Merseyside (that still goes on

to this day) has cost its parent company News International tens of millions of pounds in lost revenue;

new Government enquiries were ordered to see if there was a case for criminal prosecutions (undertaken

by Lord Justice Stuart-Smith); television documentaries and academics have alleged a systematic police

cover-up (written evidence from junior officers to the Taylor enquiry was altered by superiors, for instance);

and until 1999, Sheffield Wednesday refused to erect a memorial at the ground to the victims (leading to

Liverpool fans boycotting Hillsborough in season 1998-99). Finally, in 2000, families of the victims brought

a private, civil prosecution against Duckinfield and his deputy Bernard Murray, for manslaughter.

Murray was acquitted, but the jury were unable to reach a verdict in the case of Duckinfield, and the

judge prevented a re-trial. Nonetheless, the two Hillsborough groups (the Hillsborough Family Support

Group, and the Justice for Hillsborough campaign) remain determined to pursue the truth of what happened

that day. Over a decade later, Hillsborough remains a highly controversial issue, with its effects most

obvious at every stadium in the country.

[cider head]

Does anybody think the terracing debate will suffer following the events involving Man ure and Spurs?

S

nope as the old bill (at fault again) were beating people across seats

[cider head]

You know where you can stick your terracing. Crowds are up since the awful days of terracing. More and more families are watchin football - why?

Because they can sit in comfort and get a good view of a footy match without being pushed, jostled, feet stamped on. I take my five and eight year old boys to football, what kind of shitty view would they get terracing? And if someone pushed from behind into them, crushing them when a goal is scored, what then? A right hook from me and then there would be trouble.

The only reasons I can take my boys to watch football is that they are safer and can watch footy in relevant comfort, not left at the front of a terrace where I can't give them my 100% attention.

Screw the terrace!

the terrace was for fun the stands are for comfort, stands (seating) have always been there

it's a choice you made back then to sit or stand, that choice has now been taken

away for some.

Screw the terrace? ouch that will hurt

[Guest DanC]

You know where you can stick your terracing. Crowds are up since the awful days of terracing. More and more families are watchin football - why?

Because they can sit in comfort and get a good view of a footy match without being pushed, jostled, feet stamped on. I take my five and eight year old boys to football, what kind of shitty view would they get terracing? And if someone pushed from behind into them, crushing them when a goal is scored, what then? A right hook from me and then there would be trouble.

The only reasons I can take my boys to watch football is that they are safer and can watch footy in relevant comfort, not left at the front of a terrace where I can't give them my 100% attention.

Screw the terrace!

Same can happen in a a seated stand. I have often gone down 10 rows when a goal has been scored.

[cider head]

When you were younger.

What about if your 65+ with a dodgy leg, still like to stand for 2 hours then?

1965/66 season? How much football violence was around then? I'm talking of the decline of the 70's 80's when violence was rife on the terraces.

Seating has been the main stay of getting the fans back to the grounds since then, along with Jerry Keys and Andy Gray!

Although I can't see a reason why you shouldn't have your own shed with a roof over it, go back to smoking as well?

hmmmm violence was rife on the terraces?? so the seats that went flying from the dolman A block vs millwall in 1985

was becuse the dolman was a terrace? and millwall at luton in 1995 where seats went flying at police across the pitch was down

to terraces???? ashton gate problems have mainly come from seated areas but the real point is that

seating or standing has nothing to do with the fighting In the 1970s & 1980s you never had robo cops with cs gas / pepper spray,

video cameras, cctv, the chance of being banned for 3 years for public disorder and having to surrender your passport to the police

when England are playing away, it was un heard of that you could get 3 years max for affray or 5 years max for violent disorder in prison

for a fight at a football ground when the copper would give you a kicking behined the stands on chucking you out for only then you

would get back in at the other turnstile, you would rarely if not at all get 10 year to life time bans fron your football club

so to be honest it's the laws of today that have changed fighting in grounds and not standing or sitting, and the taylor report

about hillsborough clearly states that police and stewards caused the crushing that day not fighting to which from that day

gave us all seater stadiums.

laws and police have got better so people think twice now about trouble and it's got nothing to do with standing or sitting

back in the 70's and 80's a nutter would fight on his head if he had to regardless of seating or standing, you just can't get away with

the violence or antics of the 70's and 80's in todays climate, some do try but they get banned.

[cider head]

By far and away the best atmosphere this season has not been at Yeovil (where the atmosphere was distinctly and disappointingly flat), Chesterfield or any other ground with terracing, it was at Forest and Swansea.

again i think that has to do with who travels on the day of those games and who sits / stands with who,

a fair few who like to sing and shout at games were sat in yeovils end due to not being able

to get away end tickets, the same group who were at swansea singing their hearts out were not possibly

stood together at yeovil, it's the same at ashton gate those people who made a good atmosphere vs brentford

in the EE were all there vs bradford but all split up and it showed becuse the bradford game was dead.

i think the standing and sitting is a choice thing really...

[Barry]

that fans were routinely treated with contempt by football, and that fans had been the victims

rather the guilty party

fans still are treated that way. just look at the cases in Europe this week! how much trouble would there have been if the police didn't act in such an antagonistic manner.

fair effort for taking the time on that post

the taylor report

about hillsborough clearly states that police and stewards caused the crushing that day not fighting to which from that day

gave us all seater stadiums.

That's the problem that the Government had to shift the responsibility away from their police force. i was under the impression that the Taylor report say there was no reason for terraces not to be safe so long as they were controlled in a proper manner.

It was the governments decision to remove terracing, as keeping it would mean admitting police error.

as you say if it wasn't for disgusting negligence from the police and sheff wed/ whom ever ran the ground and they should have charged with manslaughter due to gross negligence.

think i should go to bed now...

bring on tomorrow....well today even!

[Red Head]

Thanks for your contribution.

Enjoy the Golf and I'm glad you will now allow people to discuss a burning issue to them without the input of cheap self-entertainers or fisherman.

Golf was poor. As some people would say, a shame to interupt a nice walk.

Please tell me, where will you take this issue now?

[RedTop]

StevieL himself stated that cost isn't the issue

So? I disagree with him! Every pound spent subsidizing people in the East End is a pound that could be spent improving the team.

(even if it were, the argument then would be that the A+S constabulary is simply holding our Club to ransom, imo.)

I agree with you on that. The way the police AND the council blackmail the club and hold them to ransom is a disgrace and a scandal.

Look around the Country, you may shamlessly claim the contrary but the police presence here is OTT.

I may shamelessly claim?! I don't recall doing anything of the same in the past. However, I will say from some very close-up personal observation of how the police track City yobs that actually in general they do a pretty decent job at the Gate in preventing mindless knuckledraggers who ARE intent on violence from dragging the name of our club through the mud. At the Mem, however, it was an absolute outrage thanks to appalling decision-making at the top and some officers apparently undertrained. Seeing as it's the same force, I do hope that there is more training for A&S rather than insisting it all went well.

again i think that has to do with who travels on the day of those games and who sits / stands with who,

a fair few who like to sing and shout at games were sat in yeovils end due to not being able

to get away end tickets, the same group who were at swansea singing their hearts out were not possibly

stood together at yeovil, it's the same at ashton gate those people who made a good atmosphere vs brentford

in the EE were all there vs bradford but all split up and it showed becuse the bradford game was dead.

i think the standing and sitting is a choice thing really...

Exactly. Those are all issues to do with unreserved seating, not to do with standing!

Sitting vs standing may be a choice thing, but it's got nowt to do with atmosphere.

[cider head]

Sitting vs standing may be a choice thing, but it's got nowt to do with atmosphere.

fair point about atmosphere, i'm just on the thinking through this thread where

terracing was the blame for football violence i don't belive this is true as it was the

sign of the times back in the 70's and 80's, a fair few seats went flying at football during that period,

but yeah it's a choice thing that some don't get,

i'm not to concerned about seating or standing at city i'm just glad we got the EE open for

the unreserved fans.

[chalky]

I'm sick of people getting the wrong end of the stick about the whole "return to terracing!".

I spend a lot of time speaking to members of the SUSD and helping out in any way I can.

The aim of the campaign is to ALLOW SMALL AREAS OF EACH GROUND WHERE PEOPLE CAN STAND BEHIND THEIR SEATS AS THEY CURRENTLY DO IN A LOT OF MATCHES UP AND DOWN THE COUNTRY.

It makes me so mad when people who didn't like the terraces and prefer to sit fight against the campaign. These people must have misunderstood what the aims and "calls" are for! Those of you who like modern day football and like to sit with your family can do so. It is about CHOICE for those fans who want to stand to be allowed to. It would not affect anyones view who doesn't want to SO WHATS THE BLOODY PROBLEM!

[22A]

What we all seem to forget about Hillsborough is that the grounds were lobster pots then. Remember we were all penned in to prevent the extreme minority few from going on the pitch. We had to watch through a grille and that is what prevented the Lverpool fans from excaping the crush by going onto the pitch surrounds.

It's like if your doors are locked and the house burns down resulting in your death, the enquiry will say the fault was you having the gas ring turned too high.