Smoke

[Steve Watts]

 

10 hours ago, NickJ said:

Over the years daft and unjust laws have been changed because they were challenged.

Several times you've alluded to this, so I have one question.... Have you received a response from your MP to your letter asking him to challenge this law?  I only ask as you're so very clearly keen to see the law changed I'm assuming you're not just leaving it unchallenged...? 

7 hours ago, richwwtk said:

Can't speak for Super, but I am staggered by the fact that you continue to defend the people doing this when Julie has already clearly stated that people were hurt and needed treatment from the devices yesterday.

Also your assertion about babies not being likely to be in the ground is demonstrably wrong. I took my son at 8 weeks old, I'm sure others have done and continue to do so.

Sadly I'm not.  I know the rules are attack the post and not the poster, but I don't think I've ever read one post of NickJ's and thought: "Well that sounds like a reasonable bloke with unquestionable morals".  I, for one, am wholeheartedly NOT staggered by any response from him at all in this thread.  To continue dismissing it as "coloured smoke" when it's been clearly stated by some that actually know that the heat that can be generated from one can cause burning elements hot enough to melt a football shirt into someone's skin should tell you all you need to know.

[Guest]

13 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

My thoughts

Personally I love the smoke in terms of atmosphere

As far as I can see the situation is a doomed cycle though

Firstly it's illegal (Due to Bradford ? And IIRC correctly a Welsh Fan killed by a firework in Millenium Stadium) and can be quite heavily dealt with at the courts

So those who like the smoke and have access to it , with CCTV and stewards / police about arnt likely to hang on to it too long 

So , very fe are prepared to handle it properly ,  they then tend to throw it , causing potential safety issues and incidents like we saw yesterday

Unless they change the law it's forever going to be a self perpetuating series of incidents and doomed , unless many are prepared to take a ban and criminal conviction

IIRC the offence / charge sounds horrific 'Taking an explosive substance into a designated stadium' (Or similar)

For those prepared to take that risk, bear in mind if you want to travel in the future you are likely to find a real problem with a conviction like that (For example you would have no chance of ever getting in the States for a holiday)

I suppose the problem is, the use of smoke  is indiscriminate.
To allow the use of smoke in a stadium would require people to sign up to it, segregation of those who do and don't (and I'd like to see how smoke would be contained) like it, filling out health questionnaires, disclaimers (meaningless pieces of paper) etc. So as much as this might look good, it's just not going to happen, even if it is legalised.

The risk is: 'It's not what you do, it's what you get caught doing'
One of @Dollymarie's posts demonstrated the clearness of the CCTV now being used by BCFC and your chances of being caught now are 'likely'
This means that the people now letting off smoke are likely to be: idiots or vulnerable.
It's just not possible to legislate against being an idiot no matter what some people think - so the Darwin award kicks in.
I do however have a problem with people who use vulnerable people to do what they don't have the balls to do themselves.
Example: Using the young to bring in the smoke in with: "Your under xyz years of age, they won't prosecute you"
And as you point out, having a criminal conviction can have consequences that someone just hasn't thought about (you use the US as an example and I'd say that it's possible in future that other countries could take such a draconian approaches to adminssion) - it's the law of unintended consequences.

I was fortunate enough to grow up in a UK that if you did something minor wrong, you got a cuff to the head and sent on your merry way. Now you can't fart without someone taking a big sniff, complaining about it and recording it for posterity.

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

Can`t we just revive bog roll throwing?

[bpexile]

On 06/08/2017 at 01:54, WolfOfWestStreet said:

I bloody love the smoke... I've also got a breathing problem ... dont care love it

The people responsible have also got a breathing problem, I don't think I have to elaborate on my statement. 

Consider other people morons !

[Aaron-Bcfc]

On 5 August 2017 at 18:45, BRISTOL86 said:

Yeah really good fun for asthmatics mate. 

Still, as long as you're having fun, who cares about other people. 

2 of the people I go with are also asthmatics, have been amongst plenty of smoke bombs/flares including Saturday, and I've never seen them crying about it and/or struggling to breathe. If they're so massively dangerous could you please find me an example of where someone has died as a result of inhaling smoke from a smoke bomb/flare? Seeing as thousands of them are let off every week across Europe. And as others have said, masses of them are let off in concerts as well.

Lighten up.

[Bristol Rob]

I just assumed Tinnion had been made Pope.

[RedM]

My views, and I've seen plenty of flares and smoke at football matches and concerts over the years, is that they do visually add to the atmosphere but yes can cause problems for those with breathing difficulties who cannot chose immediately to move themselves away. 

However they are on the list of banned items you cannot bring into the ground, so just attempting to bring one in is an offence. I also believe it is against the law to throw anything onto the pitch, whether it be a coin, bottle, flare or anything else.

From what has been said though in this case I can understand why a perfectly innocent person would want it away from his family and panicked and acted quickly,with good intent, and threw it onto the pitch and not wait 'for the attention of the nearest steward'. It will be certainly clear from any CCTV to back up what the witness statements are showing and I trust common sense would prevail in this instance. 

My concern, more than the actual incident, is how the items got in. 

[WolfOfWestStreet]

1 hour ago, bpexile said:

The people responsible have also got a breathing problem, I don't think I have to elaborate on my statement. 

Consider other people morons !

I'm not responsible. I'm just stating i like flares and smoke bombs. 

[BRISTOL86]

1 hour ago, Aaron-Bcfc said:

2 of the people I go with are also asthmatics, have been amongst plenty of smoke bombs/flares including Saturday, and I've never seen them crying about it and/or struggling to breathe. If they're so massively dangerous could you please find me an example of where someone has died as a result of inhaling smoke from a smoke bomb/flare? Seeing as thousands of them are let off every week across Europe. And as others have said, masses of them are let off in concerts as well.

Lighten up.

Perhaps their asthma is milder than mine? I've been around them many times and it's not pleasant for me. 

Why can't morons accept that just because they think something is OK doesn't mean it's right to do it? At the end of the day they're banned, how hard is that to understand?

[Cider-Head23]

Although I agree with certain posters, that Pyro helps to better the atmosphere there not worth the hassle. We've had fans banned in the past for this offence.

Although the punishment for possessing or using smoke bombs/flares at a football match seems extreme. Football Banning Orders & Fines for what is about 90 seconds and smoke and excitement.

I don't see why these individuals are running the risk of the above, especially as it''s been well documented by the club, FA, Police etc on the crackdown of fireworks at sporting events. 

[SARJ]

Going slightly off topic, reading through this thread, what is wrong with people's kids these days? When we were young, boys would be boys. Couldn't wait to get down the Gate and enjoy all the 'naughtiness', agro and atmosphere. Nowadays parents wrap their kids in cotton wool.

[Cowshed]

7 minutes ago, SARJ said:

Going slightly off topic, reading through this thread, what is wrong with people's kids these days? When we were young, boys would be boys. Couldn't wait to get down the Gate and enjoy all the 'naughtiness', agro and atmosphere. Nowadays parents wrap their kids in cotton wool.

There is no naughtiness and real atmosphere to enjoy.

There is also no end where kids can run around be themselves and kick cans against a wall to entertain themselves if that is more interesting.

I bought 150+ kids to Ashton Gate with a club. They enjoyed it, but it was a trial for the adults, BCFC like all clubs wanted them controlled rather than being kids. 

[RedM]

8 minutes ago, SARJ said:

Going slightly off topic, reading through this thread, what is wrong with people's kids these days? When we were young, boys would be boys. Couldn't wait to get down the Gate and enjoy all the 'naughtiness', agro and atmosphere. Nowadays parents wrap their kids in cotton wool.

And as an aside note it quite worrying how much asthma and breathing difficulties both children and adults have. I guess pollution is to blame but it seems worse now than when ( I'm not that old but...) houses had coal fires, no central heating or double glazing and people smoked around children and adults in football grounds, buses, homes, offices pubs etc. All this sanitation hasn't done much good has it? Before anyone jumps on me I'm not saying people should breath in others peoples smoke, not at all, just that even without that more people seem to have asthma etc, why? 

[Cowshed]

1 minute ago, RedM said:

And as an aside note it quite worrying how much asthma and breathing difficulties both children and adults have. I guess pollution is to blame but it seems worse now than when ( I'm not that old but...) houses had coal fires, no central heating or double glazing and people smoked around children and adults in football grounds, buses, homes, offices pubs etc. All this sanitation hasn't done much good has it? Before anyone jumps on me I'm not saying people should breath in others peoples smoke, not at all, just that even without that more people seem to have asthma etc, why? 

Because children are being wrapped up and sanitised. Dirt, infection, getting ill, experiencing life as it was all has effect, it builds up the immune system. Creating environments that are sterile and risk free creating humans that are less immune. Psychologically as well as physically humans have started to react adversely to anything and everything.

Let you kids run free, get dirty, take risks ...

[cider head]

16 hours ago, Nibor said:

Perhaps the best way to stop the belters bringing in fireworks is for the club to organise something safe.

A safer way would be a fog/smoke machine fitted in to the stand with signs up saying artificial smoke area so being unreserved those with a health or intolerance issue can be fore warned to move away from that area or not stand there in the first place. A fog machine would take away the throwing of smoke canister or burning themselves or hurting others and damage to the pitch but those who like smoke will get the same but safer effect.

 

[cider head]

Orlando

https://www.sbnation.com/soccer/2017/3/5/14822656/orlando-city-sc-stadium-smoke-device-area-wall-ruckus

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

@RedM @Cowshed

I read somewhere that in the last 30 odd years or so, the number of cars on the road or owned in the UK had doubled. That might have something to do with increased asthma etc...or gone up by 2/3 anyway the cars thing. Not saying it's the only reason but it perhaps doesn't help.

Either way, it's millions of extra cars on the road. Okay if you're driving, but if not...Flares and smoking are a bit piddling by comparison.

[SARJ]

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

Because children are being wrapped up and sanitised. Dirt, infection, getting ill, experiencing life as it was all has effect, it builds up the immune system. Creating environments that are sterile and risk free creating humans that are less immune. Psychologically as well as physically humans have started to react adversely to anything and everything.

Let you kids run free, get dirty, take risks ...

Exactly. Back 10/20 years ago kids were allowed to 'experience life' in all aspects whereas now parents seem to do everything they can to stop their kids experiencing this stuff. As such we're raising a nation of wimps who get offended and complain about everything. 

Playground antics, football trouble, getting into shenanigans after school, part of growing up. I'd even go as far as to say being picked on or having the mickey ripped out of you is part of 'character building' and makes you a better/stronger person when you're grown up.

[Nibor]

1 hour ago, cider head said:

A safer way would be a fog/smoke machine fitted in to the stand with signs up saying artificial smoke area so being unreserved those with a health or intolerance issue can be fore warned to move away from that area or not stand there in the first place. A fog machine would take away the throwing of smoke canister or burning themselves or hurting others and damage to the pitch but those who like smoke will get the same but safer effect.

 

That's the sort of thing I had in mind, seems the best solution.

[Kid in the Riot]

49 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

@RedM @Cowshed

I read somewhere that in the last 30 odd years or so, the number of cars on the road or owned in the UK had doubled. That might have something to do with increased asthma etc...or gone up by 2/3 anyway the cars thing. Not saying it's the only reason but it perhaps doesn't help.

Either way, it's millions of extra cars on the road. Okay if you're driving, but if not...Flares and smoking are a bit piddling by comparison.

Air pollution is now responsible for 40,000 deaths per year in the UK.

I randomly developed asthma in 2012. Never had any breathing issues up until then, never smoked. But it did coincide with me starting to commute across Bristol and spending hours a week stuck in traffic. Could be coincidence but hardly a leap of logic to suggest that more toxins/pollutants in the air = more asthma! Can also lead to an increase in allergies like hayfever too. Sooner we convert to hybrids / electric the better!

Oh, and I've been near plenty of smoke bombs/flares and never suffered any asthma related symptoms!

[T R]

5 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Air pollution is now responsible for 40,000 deaths per year in the UK.

I randomly developed asthma in 2012. Never had any breathing issues up until then, never smoked. But it did coincide with me starting to commute across Bristol and spending hours a week stuck in traffic. Could be coincidence but hardly a leap of logic to suggest that more toxins/pollutants in the air = more asthma! Can also lead to an increase in allergies like hayfever too. Sooner we convert to hybrids / electric the better!

Oh, and I've been near plenty of smoke bombs/flares and never suffered any asthma related symptoms!

It has been esimated around 6 million people world wide die from air pollution a year. It is why our government want us to drive electric cars so we can electricute ourselves when it rains. 

[cityloyal473]

10 hours ago, Juan Kerr said:

Can`t we just revive bog roll throwing?

I got arrested at Southend in 1993 for throwing a bog roll on the pitch. Missed a City away win. True story.

[South Somerset Red]

7 hours ago, cider head said:

A safer way would be a fog/smoke machine fitted in to the stand with signs up saying artificial smoke area so being unreserved those with a health or intolerance issue can be fore warned to move away from that area or not stand there in the first place. A fog machine would take away the throwing of smoke canister or burning themselves or hurting others and damage to the pitch but those who like smoke will get the same but safer effect.

 

You do realise if we had this kind of thing other fans would take the piss? Look its city and their smoke machines again haha.

Suppose to be attending football not a disco, the whole point of football atmosphere is for it to be created by the supporters. The smoke area is not a bad shout though.

[BobBobSuperBob]

 

4 minutes ago, cityloyal473 said:

I got arrested at Southend in 1993 for throwing a bog roll on the pitch. Missed a City away win. True story.

I went for a better class of venue and got arrested likewise at Upton Park in 84 

Was only fielding a poor throw and redirecting it 

(Thankfully , he changed his mind on the way to the police post and kicked me out instead  )

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

5 minutes ago, cityloyal473 said:

I got arrested at Southend in 1993 for throwing a bog roll on the pitch. Missed a City away win. True story.

Bit harsh. I almost took a scuffer`s ear off with an aerial pasty, but luckily I never got spotted (it was in the olden days, at Oxford). And I didn`t mean to Van Gogh the copper, it just took a strange flight path, and was as hard as a discus!

[cityloyal473]

2 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

 

I went for a better class of venue and got arrested likewise at Upton Park in 84 

Was only fielding a poor throw and redirecting it 

(Thankfully , he changed his mind on the way to the police post and kicked me out instead  )

The old bill marched me right round the edge of the pitch in front of the dugouts. Said hello to Russell Osman.

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

2 minutes ago, cityloyal473 said:

The old bill marched me right round the edge of the pitch in front of the dugouts. Said hello to Russell Osman.

I hope you told him to piss off!

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 minute ago, cityloyal473 said:

The old bill marched me right round the edge of the pitch in front of the dugouts. Said hello to Russell Osman.

Did better than me then - the Met kindly took me past their main section where I attracted various missiles and a couple of litres of flem 

[cityloyal473]

1 minute ago, Juan Kerr said:

I hope you told him to piss off!

To be honest I was ten sheets to the wind and could barely string a sentence together. 

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Aaron-Bcfc said:

2 of the people I go with are also asthmatics, have been amongst plenty of smoke bombs/flares including Saturday, and I've never seen them crying about it and/or struggling to breathe. If they're so massively dangerous could you please find me an example of where someone has died as a result of inhaling smoke from a smoke bomb/flare? Seeing as thousands of them are let off every week across Europe. And as others have said, masses of them are let off in concerts as well.

Lighten up.

A challenge if I've ever heard one and to counter this: 'my mate's an ashmatic, smokes 50 a day and took a deep drag of Saturdays smoke with no ill effect' (I hope it's realised that I'm being sarcastic)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4220320/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2355911/Family-suing-WWE-smoke-fireworks-2008-wrestling-kills-mother-children.html

http://www.the42.ie/psv-eindhoven-ajax-eredivisie-black-smoke-bombs-3355646-Apr2017/

http://www.lichfieldmercury.co.uk/mum-s-horror-game-season-sees-son-unable-breathe/story-19261227-detail/story.html

https://www.asthma.org.uk/about/media/news/asthma-attack-warning-ahead-of-bonfire-nightasthma-attack-warning-ahead-of-bonfire-night/

https://statistics.blf.org.uk/asthma

Some of the links are not smoke specific, however they do indicate that death from asthma is real.

There will be someone on here who knows someone who smokes 20-40 fags a day and lived to around 80 (I personally know someone close to 90). These people are in the minority and maybe your mates are one of the lucky asthmatics not affected by pyro. I'll lay odds that that were asthmatics affected by Saturday, they just don't use OTIB or don't engage in the posts due to the name calling on here e.g. 'wet' or 'wimps'.

And as a by the by, the indicators given on this thread are: the fella ejected on Saturday, who threw the smoke device onto the pitch, did this because it was frightening a kid (other posters words, not mine). It appears that not everyone shares the 'fun' of smoke and unfortunately they have taken the blame for something, that ultimately, they were not responsible for.

5 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Air pollution is now responsible for 40,000 deaths per year in the UK.

I randomly developed asthma in 2012. Never had any breathing issues up until then, never smoked. But it did coincide with me starting to commute across Bristol and spending hours a week stuck in traffic. Could be coincidence but hardly a leap of logic to suggest that more toxins/pollutants in the air = more asthma! Can also lead to an increase in allergies like hayfever too. Sooner we convert to hybrids / electric the better!

Oh, and I've been near plenty of smoke bombs/flares and never suffered any asthma related symptoms!

Or so you think (some believe that certain heath conditions are a cumulative effect of being exposed to environmental/occupational/etc. conditions)? I'm fortunate at the moment, I'm don't suffer from asthma and if possible, I'd like to keep it that way.