The three coaches

[marmite]

I think if a Neil  Warnock type was given a short contract with a promotion bonus at the end of it, most fans would support the football even if it wasn't pretty. It ain't pretty now anyway!!! If you support City you support whoever has the reins be it Warnock or whoever. Its results that gets the points not necessarily style. Some call Neil's football hoof ball, but it got Cardiff promoted. Isn't that what we want.

[Hampshire Red]

Love this post. THe second sentence sums it up totally. The coaching team are learning. so they need the support of you/us the supporters. Get real, stop comparing us with Klopp and Guardiola and Ferguson and stop mentioning has-beens who failed more often than they succeeded (Warnock)

We support City, Johnson, City Coaches and we bounce together, win together, lose together, learn together and support each other. THat's surely why we are on this forum - we support City

COYRs

[Major Isewater]

I’m sure I’ve drunk there .

 

[CotswoldRed]

6 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Luton is a huge game in so many ways. Lose and you lose ground on the playoffs and make the club look less attractive to a potential new signing too.

Must win. And I don’t usually overreact like this.

Draw, he’ll get the Brentford game.

Lose, he’ll be gone imho. 

He'll be gone? I really can't see that happening. SL is, like LJ, hugely cautious to the point of being caught up in indecision... so defaults to the status quo and plan A. 

[1bristolcity]

1 hour ago, Major Isewater said:

I’m sure I’ve drunk there .

 

Ffs

[BS4 on Tour...]

8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Who coached and mentored him?  Erich Rutemöller, a top level coach, who was Germany’s assistant manager for 10 years.

Mourinho (crap footballer) had Bobby Robson, Louis Van Gaal.  Not bad.

Wenger (crap footballer) had Jean-Marc Gillou - former French international who developed Platini at Nancy.  Not bad

..... and Julian Watts (crap footballer) - that’s it, nothing else to add, just wanted to say that ...

[The Coach]

No one is going anywhere any time soon, regardless of the current state of the results. Johnson will be here until the end of season. Fail to reach the play-offs, only then do I truly believe Lansdown will show him the door. Even then, I do not have much hope Johnson's successor will be a name to get bums on seats. Would not surprise me if it was McAllister next in line for the role of the Head Coach. 

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, CotswoldRed said:

He'll be gone? I really can't see that happening. SL is, like LJ, hugely cautious to the point of being caught up in indecision... so defaults to the status quo and plan A. 

You’re probably right.

[RedRock]

If we’re stuck with LJ - and we are - a Director of Football is now an absolute must.

[Ziderarmy]

6 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Luton is a huge game in so many ways. Lose and you lose ground on the playoffs and make the club look less attractive to a potential new signing too.

Must win. And I don’t usually overreact like this.

Draw, he’ll get the Brentford game.

Lose, he’ll be gone imho. 

@Davefevs I enjoy your posts greatly and you come across as very level headed.

I see no situation whatever the result of the next two games that Johnson will be sacked whatsoever. 

Have you heard something? 

[MarcusX]

2 hours ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

My view FWIW is that he`s likely been given a target for the next four league games (forget the cup) - something like 8points from Luton, Brentford, Wigan & Barnsley. if he doesn`t achieve that, he`s toast IMO.

 

6 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Luton is a huge game in so many ways. Lose and you lose ground on the playoffs and make the club look less attractive to a potential new signing too.

Must win. And I don’t usually overreact like this.

Draw, he’ll get the Brentford game.

Lose, he’ll be gone imho. 

Based on what? There’s nothing SL has said or done that would suggest he’d even consider sacking him right now - except perhaps the top 6 target but even still there’s half a season and a new transfer window to go, and we’re currently doing better than this time last year...

[Davefevs]

27 minutes ago, ziderheadarmy said:

@Davefevs I enjoy your posts greatly and you come across as very level headed.

I see no situation whatever the result of the next two games that Johnson will be sacked whatsoever. 

Have you heard something? 

 

14 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

 

Based on what? There’s nothing SL has said or done that would suggest he’d even consider sacking him right now - except perhaps the top 6 target but even still there’s half a season and a new transfer window to go, and we’re currently doing better than this time last year...

Easy tigers

Gut feel.  Nothing more.  Just think a defeat will leave us further adrift of the playoff pack as we head into the Window.  Johnson will be wanting the earth from a position of weakness, and we will look less attractive to new players too.  SL won’t jeopardise the financial position, and I could see SL wondering whether someone else could achieve the playoffs with what is already there!

Perhaps it’s frustration talking?

 

[CityCiderEd]

10 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Who coached and mentored him?  Erich Rutemöller, a top level coach, who was Germany’s assistant manager for 10 years.

Its one of the questions I want to ask LJ....who is his his coaching guru?  Not Brian Marwood, not the odd chat with King Kenny, etc.  Who helped him lay the foundations to his footballing principles?  His dad?  I don’t know, but I’ve never heard him come out and say the name of anyone who helped him form those principles.

Mourinho (crap footballer) had Bobby Robson, Louis Van Gaal.  Not bad.

Wenger (crap footballer) had Jean-Marc Gillou - former French international who developed Platini at Nancy.  Not bad

Had a long day so just read your post. So bang on the money with all you say. Oldham, Barnsley and on to Bristol City and without his City connection would never have been considered for the City job. 

[IAmNick]

A lot of talk about "Warnock" football - but from the odd Cardiff fan I know they actually really enjoyed his time there while they were in the Championship.

Football doesn't have to be slick passing football like us 2 years ago to be entertaining. From what I know his brand is fast, attacking, aggressive, and above all passionate - and that's what makes it entertaining. Maybe not one for the purists, but it's more likely to get you out of your seat on a regular basis than what we're currently being served up.

Not saying I'd want him here, but his "ugly" brand of football and entertainment are not mutually exclusive in my opinion.

[Superjack]

13 hours ago, cityloyal473 said:

From Coppell's perspective quite well: he identified early it would be a gang **** and bailed.

I can not like this enough.

[Superjack]

10 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Luton is a huge game in so many ways. Lose and you lose ground on the playoffs and make the club look less attractive to a potential new signing too.

Must win. And I don’t usually overreact like this.

Draw, he’ll get the Brentford game.

Lose, he’ll be gone imho. 

He won't though.

[MarcusX]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

 

Easy tigers

Gut feel.  Nothing more.  Just think a defeat will leave us further adrift of the playoff pack as we head into the Window.  Johnson will be wanting the earth from a position of weakness, and we will look less attractive to new players too.  SL won’t jeopardise the financial position, and I could see SL wondering whether someone else could achieve the playoffs with what is already there!

Perhaps it’s frustration talking?

 

It’s not that I think you’re wrong, because it’s a logical thought. I just can’t see SL doing it

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

Perhaps we need three taxis?

[Olé]

18 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Who coached and mentored him?  Erich Rutemöller, a top level coach, who was Germany’s assistant manager for 10 years.

Its one of the questions I want to ask LJ....who is his his coaching guru?  Not Brian Marwood, not the odd chat with King Kenny, etc.  Who helped him lay the foundations to his footballing principles?  His dad?  I don’t know, but I’ve never heard him come out and say the name of anyone who helped him form those principles.

Mourinho (crap footballer) had Bobby Robson, Louis Van Gaal.  Not bad.

Wenger (crap footballer) had Jean-Marc Gillou - former French international who developed Platini at Nancy.  Not bad

Thanks Dave, I've suddenly found incredible clarity to my view on LJ. The subject of experience and mentoring was discussed in the pub after the Charlton game and found a lot of support. Your examples above evidence perfectly what I know to be true in my own line of business - that successful people are rarely formed in isolation simply through their own ideas, but by nurturing and exposure to all the experiences of prior successful leaders. Johnson as you illustrate has none of this.

When I say I've found clarity, I mean I'm often left utterly frustrated by LJ but I would never class myself as LJ OUT. That's not just a fluffy double standard to bash the bloke but conveniently appear more level headed than others, I actually mean I'm not asking to get rid of him full stop. @italian dave put it better than me in the match report thread but I agree with the principles of stability and I can't abide the knee jerk reaction where someone has to lose their job as if it's the only solution.

I agree with SLs approach, we need continuity and we should revel in building the club around a talented coach, who has a huge family affinity, great passion and loyalty for our club, and who has proven he can develop players. I don't want to throw away all that promise to simply roll the dice again. But the fatal error is that he has been allowed to build his career in an echo chamber, and as an inexperienced coach has been allowed to hire friends with even less experience to support him.

That is a major cop out. By him and by the club. It's not LJ OUT or LJ IN its where the hell is his mentor? What experience can be call upon? There's a reason we go into downward tailspins every year - it's because he only has experimentation and raiding the transfer market as ways of getting out of it. We already know LJ has a fragile ego, which is why he avoids players with a voice or leadership. But indulging his fears of being second guessed has got to stop. That's a line SL should cross.

I'm happy to have read this thread because OTIB can become very tribal when we're not doing well - you are supposed to take the side of LJ IN or LJ OUT and be defined by that, either bedsheets or that awful "happy clapper" expression (similar lack of nuance has recently infested politics). But this thread evidences there are basic leadership gaps with more measured solutions. Let's call this view LJ MENTOR. I propose to use it to cut through the binary arguments on OTIB. Hat tip @Davefevs.

[Pezo]

I don't think promotion was ever planned for this season. Next season we will have the training ground in place and I think we get in the playoffs but lose (again) and then I think we will get automatic the following season.

[Bristol Oil Services]

17 hours ago, Davefevs said:

 

Lose, he’ll be gone imho. 

 

10 hours ago, ziderheadarmy said:

 

I see no situation whatever the result of the next two games that Johnson will be sacked whatsoever. 

Have you heard something? 

 

10 hours ago, Davefevs said:

 

Easy tigers

Gut feel.  Nothing more.  

 

This is the week/time of year to be listening to/feeling your gut, Dave, but I'm not sure you're quite "hearing" it right at the moment....

[CotswoldRed]

9 hours ago, IAmNick said:

A lot of talk about "Warnock" football - but from the odd Cardiff fan I know they actually really enjoyed his time there while they were in the Championship.

Football doesn't have to be slick passing football like us 2 years ago to be entertaining. From what I know his brand is fast, attacking, aggressive, and above all passionate - and that's what makes it entertaining. Maybe not one for the purists, but it's more likely to get you out of your seat on a regular basis than what we're currently being served up.

Not saying I'd want him here, but his "ugly" brand of football and entertainment are not mutually exclusive in my opinion.

A great point. Each to their own, but one of the most boring aspects of modern football is the insistence on 35 passes before an attempt in goal, all the while the defence organised in 2 rows of 4.

Boring.

[Ayteomike2]

Send the players to games on coach 1 they might play a lot better after having to suffer the look of I always sit there and the smell of the awful food 

[cityloyal473]

1 hour ago, Olé said:

Thanks Dave, I've suddenly found incredible clarity to my view on LJ. The subject of experience and mentoring was discussed in the pub after the Charlton game and found a lot of support. Your examples above evidence perfectly what I know to be true in my own line of business - that successful people are rarely formed in isolation simply through their own ideas, but by nurturing and exposure to all the experiences of prior successful leaders. Johnson as you illustrate has none of this.

When I say I've found clarity, I mean I'm often left utterly frustrated by LJ but I would never class myself as LJ OUT. That's not just a fluffy double standard to bash the bloke but conveniently appear more level headed than others, I actually mean I'm not asking to get rid of him full stop. @italian dave put it better than me in the match report thread but I agree with the principles of stability and I can't abide the knee jerk reaction where someone has to lose their job as if it's the only solution.

I agree with SLs approach, we need continuity and we should revel in building the club around a talented coach, who has a huge family affinity, great passion and loyalty for our club, and who has proven he can develop players. I don't want to throw away all that promise to simply roll the dice again. But the fatal error is that he has been allowed to build his career in an echo chamber, and as an inexperienced coach has been allowed to hire friends with even less experience to support him.

That is a major cop out. By him and by the club. It's not LJ OUT or LJ IN its where the hell is his mentor? What experience can be call upon? There's a reason we go into downward tailspins every year - it's because he only has experimentation and raiding the transfer market as ways of getting out of it. We already know LJ has a fragile ego, which is why he avoids players with a voice or leadership. But indulging his fears of being second guessed has got to stop. That's a line SL should cross.

I'm happy to have read this thread because OTIB can become very tribal when we're not doing well - you are supposed to take the side of LJ IN or LJ OUT and be defined by that, either bedsheets or that awful "happy clapper" expression (similar lack of nuance has recently infested politics). But this thread evidences there are basic leadership gaps with more measured solutions. Let's call this view LJ MENTOR. I propose to use it to cut through the binary arguments on OTIB. Hat tip @Davefevs.

Echo chamber is a great way of describing the set up at City. They're all self congratulatory and immersed in their own little world.  Despite not having any (or little) outside experience of winning promotion or overcoming adversity we are expected to throw all our trust behind LJ and his team and just let them get on with it. That's very dangerous imo.  MA contributes to this also.  And dare I say it, perhaps LJ et al., are caught up in Bristol Sport and the hype around that.  BS is increasingly resembling an echo chamber too. 

As for a mentor, that's never going to happen.  It would be an admission of failure by a number of people at a number of levels and expose the self imposed bubble they all live in.

[Bris Red]

1 hour ago, Pezo said:

I don't think promotion was ever planned for this season. Next season we will have the training ground in place and I think we get in the playoffs but lose (again) and then I think we will get automatic the following season.

With who as manager may i ask? I would love to share your optimism but with the current coaching set up none of what you said will happen IMO.. I actually feel it will be quite the opposite and we will start drifting down the league into an all too familiar relegation scrap at this level.

[italian dave]

18 hours ago, Mendip City said:

I know lots would hate it.... but a six month Warnock gamble would be very interesting and no risk (we ain’t going down) and relatively cheap. 
It’ll never happen but he’s probably the sort of shake the place needs for a while... 

It would be a huge risk. Not talking about the style of football or his personality; his whole strategy anywhere he goes is short term-ist, absolutely the opposite of what SL says is his strategy at City. Warnock rarely leaves anywhere with a legacy of a sustainable future, he doesn't take clubs up and keep them there like Bournemouth, and he doesn't manage relegation in a way that WBA or Burnley do. 

So we'd throw everything we're trying to achieve out of the window for six months, and then bring in a third manager creating exactly the sort of instability that SL has identified as a problem in the past.

Its a strategy (ours!) that makes sense to me, although I'm not always convinced that we have it absolutely at the heart of what we do. That other strategy of having to buy cheap and sell expensive seems often to conflict with it and I don't know that we get the balance right. I know we have to balance the books, but if we are going to take a risk, that's where I'd take it. Maybe not sell a Webster one summer. We seem to constantly rebuild every season, which may sustain consistency at management and coaching level but doesn't do so on the pitch. 

[cidered abroad]

18 hours ago, Natchfever said:

Klopp played second tier German football much of his career which is better than Ferguson, Wenger Mourinho or Lee Johnson achieved I reckon and when appointed coach of Mainz mid season in his first job saved them from the drop, got 2 4th place finishes the next couple of seasons before finally getting them promotion to the Bundesliga keeping them up for 2 years despite the smallest budget in the league. Johnson has been a manager/coach nearly seven years so how much longer is he to learn his trade ?

The assistants should be just that, assisting him, and I very much doubt anyway that the head coach would appreciate a strong character in the dug out with him.

Ref your last paragraph.

I believe that the really good managers or head coaches, actually do employ strong minded characters within their coaching staff.

A good recent example is Guardiola and Mikel Arteta. Arteta openly said he wanted to be a manager yet Pep employed him as number two even though Arteta could have been seen as a threat to him.

A good number one is always under threat from those who work for and with him/her. A good number one improves themselves by having top people around them.

Only those who are afraid of others will employ those who do not challenge them.

I'm not saying that is the case at City and with LJ. Except to say that they are all at various early stages of their coaching careers and, IMO, could do with advice and input from a more seasoned character.

[italian dave]

10 hours ago, IAmNick said:

A lot of talk about "Warnock" football - but from the odd Cardiff fan I know they actually really enjoyed his time there while they were in the Championship.

Football doesn't have to be slick passing football like us 2 years ago to be entertaining. From what I know his brand is fast, attacking, aggressive, and above all passionate - and that's what makes it entertaining. Maybe not one for the purists, but it's more likely to get you out of your seat on a regular basis than what we're currently being served up.

Not saying I'd want him here, but his "ugly" brand of football and entertainment are not mutually exclusive in my opinion.

I only know one Cardiff fan (well!) and he didn't. Enjoyed being in the Premiership, but didn't like the football. 

Palace fans, going back a bit, may have had a different view though? I something's think that in his older age he almost played up to his pantomime villain role. He always cheated, but some of his earlier sides did play more exciting football than latterly. 

[CotswoldRed]

49 minutes ago, cityloyal473 said:

Echo chamber is a great way of describing the set up at City. They're all self congratulatory and immersed in their own little world.  Despite not having any (or little) outside experience of winning promotion or overcoming adversity we are expected to throw all our trust behind LJ and his team and just let them get on with it. That's very dangerous imo.  MA contributes to this also.  And dare I say it, perhaps LJ et al., are caught up in Bristol Sport and the hype around that.  BS is increasingly resembling an echo chamber too. 

As for a mentor, that's never going to happen.  It would be an admission of failure by a number of people at a number of levels and expose the self imposed bubble they all live in.

About right I'd say. 

Any deviation from a straight line to success will always be put down to bad luck from here. Success, a vindication of their plan. 

[Pezo]

43 minutes ago, bris red said:

With who as manager may i ask? I would love to share your optimism but with the current coaching set up none of what you said will happen IMO.. I actually feel it will be quite the opposite and we will start drifting down the league into an all too familiar relegation scrap at this level.

I don't think it matters, its all about the structure and infrastructure - if LJ stays then the training ground will be enough to push us forward with some of the best facilities in the country, if its someone else then so be it.

This thread is all about experience with a bit of a background narrative that the coaching staff doesn't have any, but they all have 3 years experience. Hughton has 3 and a half years experience in the championship and took 2 1/2 years to get Brighton promoted. Don't get me wrong I think he would be a good appointment but I don't think its the right time to get rid of LJ sometimes its better the devil know and the grass isn't always greener.