The three coaches

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, Olé said:

Thanks Dave, I've suddenly found incredible clarity to my view on LJ. The subject of experience and mentoring was discussed in the pub after the Charlton game and found a lot of support. Your examples above evidence perfectly what I know to be true in my own line of business - that successful people are rarely formed in isolation simply through their own ideas, but by nurturing and exposure to all the experiences of prior successful leaders. Johnson as you illustrate has none of this.

When I say I've found clarity, I mean I'm often left utterly frustrated by LJ but I would never class myself as LJ OUT. That's not just a fluffy double standard to bash the bloke but conveniently appear more level headed than others, I actually mean I'm not asking to get rid of him full stop. @italian dave put it better than me in the match report thread but I agree with the principles of stability and I can't abide the knee jerk reaction where someone has to lose their job as if it's the only solution.

I agree with SLs approach, we need continuity and we should revel in building the club around a talented coach, who has a huge family affinity, great passion and loyalty for our club, and who has proven he can develop players. I don't want to throw away all that promise to simply roll the dice again. But the fatal error is that he has been allowed to build his career in an echo chamber, and as an inexperienced coach has been allowed to hire friends with even less experience to support him.

That is a major cop out. By him and by the club. It's not LJ OUT or LJ IN its where the hell is his mentor? What experience can be call upon? There's a reason we go into downward tailspins every year - it's because he only has experimentation and raiding the transfer market as ways of getting out of it. We already know LJ has a fragile ego, which is why he avoids players with a voice or leadership. But indulging his fears of being second guessed has got to stop. That's a line SL should cross.

I'm happy to have read this thread because OTIB can become very tribal when we're not doing well - you are supposed to take the side of LJ IN or LJ OUT and be defined by that, either bedsheets or that awful "happy clapper" expression (similar lack of nuance has recently infested politics). But this thread evidences there are basic leadership gaps with more measured solutions. Let's call this view LJ MENTOR. I propose to use it to cut through the binary arguments on OTIB. Hat tip @Davefevs.

It’s something I’ve pondered for a long time, and when I first started looking at it, Wenger was the person I looked at to see if I could find some logic to why a fairly average player at Strasbourg could become such an esteemed manager.  There are bound to be obvious things like width ethic, desire etc, but lots of people have that, so what else did they have.  I found the Jean-Marc Gillou link, and what you find is that the gap Arsene had in his locker re playing at top level, was filled by his mentor.  When I looked at the others like Mourinho I found exactly the same, they had the same.

I like LJ.  I don’t want him out, but results will dictate.  But he needs some help.  I doubt he thinks he needs it.  That “mentor” is not just a casual pick up the phone once a month type mentor, it’s someone integral to the day to day work.  Someone like Jordan would be prefect from my point of view from the outside looking in. I can’t see that happening though.

2 hours ago, Pezo said:

I don't think promotion was ever planned for this season. Next season we will have the training ground in place and I think we get in the playoffs but lose (again) and then I think we will get automatic the following season.

Playoffs was the aim this season.  A lot of clubs worried about ffp, cutting their cloth, whilst we were in good shape.

[Spike]

23 hours ago, GTFABM said:

Coppell had bags of experience. How did that go again?

We'll never know, he quit before he got started. There was obviously something wrong from the start there but if we're brutally honest we're far likely to get promoted under an experienced, already successful manager /coach than we are under the current set of coaches that we have. 

[Mendip City]

2 hours ago, italian dave said:

It would be a huge risk. Not talking about the style of football or his personality; his whole strategy anywhere he goes is short term-ist, absolutely the opposite of what SL says is his strategy at City. Warnock rarely leaves anywhere with a legacy of a sustainable future, he doesn't take clubs up and keep them there like Bournemouth, and he doesn't manage relegation in a way that WBA or Burnley do. 

So we'd throw everything we're trying to achieve out of the window for six months, and then bring in a third manager creating exactly the sort of instability that SL has identified as a problem in the past.

Its a strategy (ours!) that makes sense to me, although I'm not always convinced that we have it absolutely at the heart of what we do. That other strategy of having to buy cheap and sell expensive seems often to conflict with it and I don't know that we get the balance right. I know we have to balance the books, but if we are going to take a risk, that's where I'd take it. Maybe not sell a Webster one summer. We seem to constantly rebuild every season, which may sustain consistency at management and coaching level but doesn't do so on the pitch. 

Good points.

I was a bit tongue in cheek about Warnock - though we’d enjoy the ride and the current ride has been dull for quite a while. 
 

Buy cheap, sell expensive is interesting. You have to get very lucky to keep that going and we’ve done it for a couple of years. This year it’s hard to see who the big sale will be, more worryingly, it’s hard to spot the bargain buy or kid coming through to be the next big profit - Massengo, maybe? 
There is a danger we start trading like for like and not improving, just shuffling the same standard players around and if your not getting shot of players, you have too big a squad of much of a muchness players AND the (much talked about) pathway is blocked. 

[Wrongagain]

LJ seems to be getting away with living a lie, to experience promotion he will eventually drop a league or 2 and get some real experience, where he may manage to motivate a squad into a promotion - he certainly will never do that at the gate where he seems to kill all confidence with his ego!

SL recently boosted the bank account to the tune of £8.5 mill, unfortunately I can’t see him ditching the prodigal this season!

[Eddie Hitler]

8 minutes ago, dave36 said:

LJ seems to be getting away with living a lie, to experience promotion he will eventually drop a league or 2 and get some real experience, where he may manage to motivate a squad into a promotion - he certainly will never do that at the gate where he seems to kill all confidence with his ego!

SL recently boosted the bank account to the tune of £8.5 mill, unfortunately I can’t see him ditching the prodigal this season!

The funding hasn't changed for a couple of years: there is an expectation of an annual operating loss of £25m before player sales. 

That's a huge figure but also a steady one which suggests that it's the budgeted loss and therefore the current wage bill is that deemed sufficient to take us up.  Which it probably is.

If LJ can't take us up on that budget then someone else who can will be brought in.

As we aren't in fear of relegation I can't see Steve / Jon having a kneejerk reaction and handing out the P45s now but if we end the season outside of the play offs and having had no realistic chance of making them then that IMHO will be that.

New first team coach appointed in May with a chance to assess the squad and a full transfer window.

[Natchfever]

3 hours ago, cityloyal473 said:

Echo chamber is a great way of describing the set up at City. They're all self congratulatory and immersed in their own little world.  Despite not having any (or little) outside experience of winning promotion or overcoming adversity we are expected to throw all our trust behind LJ and his team and just let them get on with it. That's very dangerous imo.  MA contributes to this also.  And dare I say it, perhaps LJ et al., are caught up in Bristol Sport and the hype around that.  BS is increasingly resembling an echo chamber too. 

As for a mentor, that's never going to happen.  It would be an admission of failure by a number of people at a number of levels and expose the self imposed bubble they all live in.

Spot on. 

I think they would try to create a mentor from within! 

[Southport Red]

22 hours ago, Davefevs said:

No, it’s a good example.  Being a good or bad player doesn’t translate to being a good manager  

Indeed, often the best coaches were so-so footballers (Wenger, Mourinho, Ferguson). Whereas some of England’s ‘66 winners had mediocre careers as managers (Charltons, Ball etc.)

[DaveInSA]

22 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Luton is a huge game in so many ways. Lose and you lose ground on the playoffs and make the club look less attractive to a potential new signing too.

Must win. And I don’t usually overreact like this.

Draw, he’ll get the Brentford game.

Lose, he’ll be gone imho. 

Do you really think so @Davefevs?

You’re one of the ‘saner’ posters. I agree the next couple are critical. Lose those and we’re going nowhere fast and I don’t reckon we could sign a dickie bird in January.

[Natchfever]

9 minutes ago, DaveInSA said:

Do you really think so @Davefevs?

You’re one of the ‘saner’ posters. I agree the next couple are critical. Lose those and we’re going nowhere fast and I don’t reckon we could sign a dickie bird in January.

I agree about Mr Fevs sanity but think the head coach will be allowed to see the season out as a bare minimum as it would be be another admission of failure on the part of the owner. 

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, DaveInSA said:

Do you really think so @Davefevs?

You’re one of the ‘saner’ posters. I agree the next couple are critical. Lose those and we’re going nowhere fast and I don’t reckon we could sign a dickie bird in January.

On challenge, and reflection, probably not.....think it’s more the damage it could do to the window by being multiple points off the play-offs and at the back of a chasing pack.

Just reeks a pivotal game, but as you say, not pivotal in a sacking sense.

Been some good posts over the past day or so, and I think Ole (others too) hits the bail on the head - it’s not LJ in or out - I’d like to succeed, but I think he can’t do it on his own.  We critique / moan because we care (in the main).  We critique / moan because we only get 90 minutes to see what is going on.  It is a small part of the what’s going on.

It is why I don’t think there are many on here who gleefully hope he fails.  Replacing him costs money.

I really hope we win on Sunday, confidence returns to the players and we kick on.

I have been LJ Out (twice - both after Preston games), but even then wanted it to work.  It has to a large extent.  4 games ago we were 4th.  It’s bloody frustrating.

[DaveInSA]

@Davefevs, I think that’s it - frustrating.

We can’t seem to “kick on”. After ManU and Man C, we have slowly spiralled to where we are today. It’s all just mediocre...and yet, we were fourth a couple of weeks ago.

I don’t think LJ believes that he needs a mentor (if he does have one, maybe he needs to be fired!) but the harsh truth is, that LJ doesn’t “have it”. At least not at the moment.

and that is where the frustration comes from. We have technically (in the main) good players. We need to play OUR game, rather than worry about other teams. 
 

I don’t go that often. Blackburn showed me enough of what is wrong. LJ needs to fix it and fast.

[IAmNick]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

It’s something I’ve pondered for a long time, and when I first started looking at it, Wenger was the person I looked at to see if I could find some logic to why a fairly average player at Strasbourg could become such an esteemed manager.  There are bound to be obvious things like width ethic, desire etc, but lots of people have that, so what else did they have.  I found the Jean-Marc Gillou link, and what you find is that the gap Arsene had in his locker re playing at top level, was filled by his mentor.  When I looked at the others like Mourinho I found exactly the same, they had the same.

I like LJ.  I don’t want him out, but results will dictate.  But he needs some help.  I doubt he thinks he needs it.  That “mentor” is not just a casual pick up the phone once a month type mentor, it’s someone integral to the day to day work.  Someone like Jordan would be prefect from my point of view from the outside looking in. I can’t see that happening though.

It's an interesting idea. For me at some point I'd be asking though why LJ - or rather, what is it about him that makes all that investment in him worth it? His infrastructure, his squad, his coaches and support staff, and now an experienced mentor alongside him... at some point I reckon I could do the job if I had enough advisers

I don't know but I'd hazard a guess those top managers probably learnt their trade as an understudy to their mentor, or working with them in lower leagues rather than while managing a club with a pretty healthy budget and league position like ours. Maybe if he'd had his mentor a few years ago, but for me if he's been here 4 years and now if we're saying he's not good enough so we must bring in more experience around him, I'm going to be asking "Why Lee?"... Are we building Bristol City, or Lee Johnson?

I bet there are a lot of other young managers who'd want the above, so it would have to be someone pretty special to warrant it for me and right now I'm not convinced.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

It's an interesting idea. For me at some point I'd be asking though why LJ - or rather, what is it about him that makes all that investment in him worth it? His infrastructure, his squad, his coaches and support staff, and now an experienced mentor alongside him... at some point I reckon I could do the job if I had enough advisers

I don't know but I'd hazard a guess those top managers probably learnt their trade as an understudy to their mentor, or working with them in lower leagues rather than while managing a club with a pretty healthy budget and league position like ours. Maybe if he'd had his mentor a few years ago, but for me if he's been here 4 years and now if we're saying he's not good enough so we must bring in more experience around him, I'm going to be asking "Why Lee?"... Are we building Bristol City, or Lee Johnson?

I bet there are a lot of other young managers who'd want the above, so it would have to be someone pretty special to warrant it for me and right now I'm not convinced.

Really good post / response.  Good questions back too!

Early on is his time here I posted whether it was right to let the apprentice operate the machinery without supervision.  You are right that was the time to have the mentor in place.  That was when he should’ve done his apprenticeship, under someone else, ready to take over the reins at the right time.

What we did however, was let him do the training course (FA badges), get a bit of work experience at Oldham (thanks to Uncle Steve’s recommendation) and Barnsley, before allowing him to come straight into the top job here.

He hasn’t done a bad job at all.  But he is still making mistakes, the same kind of mistakes too.  These weren’t in the training manual, but the foreman who’s been on the tools for 40 years had seen them countless times over, but he never got asked.

 

 

[Natchfever]

@IAmNick agree 100% what is so very special about Lee Johnson that every other part of the club has been strengthened since his tenure started but the coaching staff? He hasn't needed a mentor in the 7 years he's been a manager so to get one in now is purely to shield him, provide a buffer, and no doubt scapegoat.

Shows me whilst SL would love premier league football he's not totally committed and ruthless as he could be. 

[Olé]

12 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I like LJ.  I don’t want him out, but results will dictate.  But he needs some help.  I doubt he thinks he needs it.  That “mentor” is not just a casual pick up the phone once a month type mentor, it’s someone integral to the day to day work.  Someone like Jordan would be prefect from my point of view from the outside looking in. I can’t see that happening though.

Thank you Dave, exactly how I feel. Also what I heard from City supporters I respect after leaving the Valley on Thursday. As has been posted in this thread (@cityloyal473 and @Natchfever) I honestly think the club would (or already has) convinced itself it can find that mentor already at Bristol City - either Mark Ashton or Steve Lansdown. Pretty sure their egos also contribute to the experience vacuum at the club.

[Superjack]

9 hours ago, IAmNick said:

Why Lee?"... Are we building Bristol City, or Lee Johnson?

Best question that I have read on here for a long while.

The best case scenario would be both... but I am not sure that I believe that.

[Swede]

As this is a thread about the three coaches I'd like to know what Jamie McAllister actually does.

If he's the defensive coach then there must be questions being asked.

Whenever he addresses the media it's always in riddles and never actually saying anything only the usual drivel. Very "Millenesque"

I heard a long time ago that he was being thought of as being the next head coach which is very worrying indeed. This is the Barnsley way of promotion from within to cause less disruption to the coaching set up.

I am afraid a bang average fullback who's experience is pub football in Scotland, City, a struggling Yeovil side and playing in India doesn't sound good and hardly the dynamic type.

 

[Davefevs]

10 hours ago, Olé said:

Thank you Dave, exactly how I feel. Also what I heard from City supporters I respect after leaving the Valley on Thursday. As has been posted in this thread (@cityloyal473 and @Natchfever) I honestly think the club would (or already has) convinced itself it can find that mentor already at Bristol City - either Mark Ashton or Steve Lansdown. Pretty sure their egos also contribute to the experience vacuum at the club.

Despite MA’s “I’ve been in this industry long enough”, and he was a young keeper at WestBrom, he’s not a footballing mentor, he’s a business-mentor, but LJ doesn’t need one of those, he could go straight to SL!!!

@IAmNick’s question is brilliant though

Guess the answer is it might be cost efficient to build Lee and City at the same time.