sh1t_ref_again Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 Just now, chinapig said: Ashton himself told Twentyman that he provided the head coach with a shortlist of players by the way. don't disagree that he does, in fact that's exactly what I said the process was earlier in the tread, you then made assumption that MA was making footballing decisions about who was on the list, which we simply do not know if that is the case other than players removed that do not meet the clubs criteria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superjack Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 3 minutes ago, chinapig said: Ashton himself told Twentyman that he provided the head coach with a shortlist of players by the way. Does anyone actually go out and study these players, or is it all based on their statistics ripped off a computer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ska Junkie Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 Just now, chinapig said: Ashton himself told Twentyman that he provided the head coach with a shortlist of players by the way. That's an excellent example of why Slimey is too involved in every aspect of the FC. Money apart, he should have zero input on the player / recruitment / tactical part of the club. No wonder nobody decent wants the job. Imagine having a bean counter running highly skilled engineers in an electronics company or a mechanic running finance at a large garage? It would never happen, but that's what we have. Madness! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh1t_ref_again Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 2 minutes ago, John Galley said: You hit the nail on the head, that’s why we lost Steve Cotterill they appointed Mark Ashton and then sacked him. Steve Cotterill was a proper manager who had control over everything on the playing side and would not work under Ashton so they sacked him. The worst thing the club ever did and that’s why we have ended up in the situation we are in now. SC was my favorite manager of recent years, not sure how much to do with MA as the writing was on the wall for a long time as you could tell SC & SL did not see eye to eye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinapig Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 1 minute ago, sh1t_ref_again said: Your making assumptions about what is presented to the head coach, also if we had a competent head coach he would the one to making the footballing decisions and give the green light for MA to try and get. The list may be filtered for all sorts of reasons other than deciding if right for the team, ie club strategy on age, possible re-sell value, perceived problem player, agents / clubs we won't deal with, maybe a whole list of considerations See my other post but I repeat Ashton himself told Twentyman he provides the head coach with a shortlist of players. So the head coach's choice is constrained by him. A man who is not a football expert. The club has been clear that he is in control of all football operations so it surprises me when people suggest that somehow he isn't. We have no DoF and no Chief Scout. We have a head coach not a manager. He and his assistants are at the bottom of the football hierarchy. Their job is to coach what they are given. So who is accountable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 18 minutes ago, sh1t_ref_again said: He employs a team of people to do that, when you manage you don't need to be an expert in every area, but you do need to employ the right people. In this thread @Davefevs has advocated having a DOF, which maybe a way forward, but I have also been trying to work out if their is enough to keep a person employed or if really needed. If we had a good proven manager these issues will be resolved because they will have a strong vision of how to achieve and what is needed from other parts of the business. At the moment we have a nice guy, friend to the players and not a clue how to affect a plan. Absolutely fair challenge. The previous DoF, put in place by JL and Keith Dawe (because of illness I think, happy to be corrected), was Keith Burt. He was given control not just of recruitment, but scouting, the playing budget, contracts, etc. There was plenty to keep him going....and a future DoF too. But the Chief Operations Officer (COO) at the time, saw the career route from football administrator / operations manager to being on the inside of football, no longer on the outside as a “wannabe”. Unfortunately he doesn’t have the skills, qualifications or experience to do elements of that role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh1t_ref_again Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 Just now, chinapig said: See my other post but I repeat Ashton himself told Twentyman he provides the head coach with a shortlist of players. So the head coach's choice is constrained by him. A man who is not a football expert. The club has been clear that he is in control of all football operations so it surprises me when people suggest that somehow he isn't. We have no DoF and no Chief Scout. We have a head coach not a manager. He and his assistants are at the bottom of the football hierarchy. Their job is to coach what they are given. So who is accountable? Yes he is passing on a list of players, created by the recruitment team and analyst, that meet the brief created by the head coach and selected against club agreed criteria, it does not mean MA is having a say who is on the list, its just departments report to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinapig Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 7 minutes ago, Superjack said: Does anyone actually go out and study these players, or is it all based on their statistics ripped off a computer? Others will be more informed than me on that but we have had no Chief Scout since Day was sacked I believe. So such scouts as we have only have Ashton to report to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh1t_ref_again Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 2 minutes ago, Ska Junkie said: That's an excellent example of why Slimey is too involved in every aspect of the FC. Money apart, he should have zero input on the player / recruitment / tactical part of the club. No wonder nobody decent wants the job. Imagine having a bean counter running highly skilled engineers in an electronics company or a mechanic running finance at a large garage? It would never happen, but that's what we have. Madness! This is a good example of someone reading a post on a forum and deciding a process is wrong, without really knowing or fully reading whats been said. Apart from the fact different areas report to MA, it does not follow that he is making any football decisions. See some of my other replies, rather than me repeating them. If someone can come out with facts that MA is over ruling the head coach on team matters, that is different as we can all agree he should not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 10 minutes ago, Superjack said: Does anyone actually go out and study these players, or is it all based on their statistics ripped off a computer? We do not know what the scouting set up is, since Mervyn Day was sacked. We saw Richard Lee, ex-Watford acting as a Consultant, and Lee’s cousin, who’s name escapes me. I can only assume there is some actual watching in the flesh, but there is heavy-load in data and video analysis under Sean Gilhespy. I may be wrong, but I think he was brought in by Ashton in 2012, or at least promoted to the analytical role by MA. @Harrymight know more about the current set up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerseybean Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 This thread is first class, full of good information (much of which I was unaware of) and interesting views as to the issues and solutions, thank you everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superjack Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 5 minutes ago, Davefevs said: We do not know what the scouting set up is, since Mervyn Day was sacked. We saw Richard Lee, ex-Watford acting as a Consultant, and Lee’s cousin, who’s name escapes me. I can only assume there is some actual watching in the flesh, but there is heavy-load in data and video analysis under Sean Gilhespy. I may be wrong, but I think he was brought in by Ashton in 2012, or at least promoted to the analytical role by MA. @Harrymight know more about the current set up. Used my last reaction thanking Chinapig, but thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havanatopia Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 I think the analogy between the Keith Burt days, whom I liked a lot because he came across as a straight talker, and today's catastrophe is that back then we had a single layer of cling film cheaply bought from The Pound Store so we could understand what was going on with regular straight talking. Today it's three layers thick from Tesco's Exclusive Range stretched over a loud speaker with holes punched for hot air to readily escape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinapig Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 6 minutes ago, sh1t_ref_again said: Yes he is passing on a list of players, created by the recruitment team and analyst, that meet the brief created by the head coach and selected against club agreed criteria, it does not mean MA is having a say who is on the list, its just departments report to him. He and the analysts ARE the recruitment team. There is no football expert in the team. As the more self aware analysts, who know the limits of their trade, say: Data is not information. Information is not knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh1t_ref_again Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 Just now, chinapig said: He and the analysts ARE the recruitment team. There is no football expert in the team. As the more self aware analysts, who know the limits of their trade, say: Data is not information. Information is not knowledge. Without getting a bit repetitive and boring MA is in the recruitment team as leader of it and does the deals The analyst are providing information in the form of a list that meets the head coach and clubs criteria back to the HC to select from, he is supposed to be the football expert and the person charged with delivering the teams objectives. Unless you have inside knowledge of the analyst team at AG, then very difficult to know how much of 'football' people they are or background. Interesting point about scouts, but cannot believe a club that was searching for the smallest of gains under LJ would not use some form of scouting network. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bard Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 12 minutes ago, sh1t_ref_again said: This is a good example of someone reading a post on a forum and deciding a process is wrong, without really knowing or fully reading whats been said. Apart from the fact different areas report to MA, it does not follow that he is making any football decisions. See some of my other replies, rather than me repeating them. If someone can come out with facts that MA is over ruling the head coach on team matters, that is different as we can all agree he should not. There is no one so blind that they cannot see. If someone is in charge of all football related matters, they are in charge . End of. It matters not whether they actually pick the side, organise the training sessionsor do the substitutions. In the structure of the organisation he has responsibility. If there is a long term decline, he is responsible rather than the coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh1t_ref_again Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 1 minute ago, The Bard said: There is no one so blind that they cannot see. If someone is in charge of all football related matters, they are in charge . End of. It matters not whether they actually pick the side, organise the training sessionsor do the substitutions. In the structure of the organisation he has responsibility. If there is a long term decline, he is responsible rather than the coach. The CEO is ultimately responsible in any company, but that is not what was being discussed, it was if MA is making football decisions about which players come in etc. He will also eventually pay for it with his job when SL decides he is not happy with the way he is running the club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarumred Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 When DH is ultimately replaced (no, I’m not getting into that debate) I think we severely restrict the number of viable candidates because the incoming person has to operate under the existing set up and does not have full control in the same way that a traditional manager does. Looking at the gas comments concerning the appointment/sacking of Tisdale it seems they have a similar problem with Widrington although I accept he does not appear to have the same control that MA has at Ashton Gate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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