the1stknowle

12 minutes ago, ciderwithtommy said:

Adam Nagy taken out of context - I think the quote was young hungry/Hungary players tbf.

I am on the fence with JL, from what I’ve seen he strikes me as someone who wants the best for the club, and has had to learn on the job, maybe now getting more savvy I hope. The only thing that came out of it of real interest for me was the 9/10 days given off after each international break, and a concern we were detraining. That’s quite a statement. 
 

More comms needed in the future, but hopefully this is the start.

Yeah, I think that's fair. While I am far from convinced and clearly there remains a lot of stuff being unsaid and nowhere near enough credit for Nige on the stabilising effect, massive cultural change, connection with fans, and steady football progress, the 20mins Ive just watched is not the blathering fool incoherently failing to string a thought together that some of the posts on here are making out. 

He shouldn't be in this role but he is and that is not changing soon it seems. So I hope he rises to it, puts the work and real commitment in, and starts centring fan communication in keeping with the idea of being a custodian of a club on behalf of the community. While miles from ideal, this interview/chat is a bit of progress. 

37 minutes ago, bearded_red said:

I’m going to use this nonsense argument with all players that ever receive criticism.

Dont think Max is good enough? Be careful what you wish for, we could have Elliott Parish.

Cornick played badly? Think yourself lucky, we could have Bas Savage instead.

About as good an argument as it is original.

So I guess the difference is the club-wide, existential impact that a bad player can have versus that a bad owner can have. And also the preponderance of really bad owners throughout English football in last few years. 

That said, I agree that its not really a useful argument - it's just the other side of the Lansdown is the devil argument. Maybe next owner will be awful; maybe they will be amazing; maybe at times they will be both. But there will be a different owner in the future at some point, so we will find out then. 

For my part, I think there are very clearly things that the Lansdown era has done to advance the club and put us on a firm footing and I'm sad that things have turned so toxic as we have much to be thankful for with an owner like this. I also believe he has done it for the 'right' reasons and it has cost him not insignificant fortunes, even by the standards of his own wealth. 

But clearly he has made mistakes and we have lacked a really consistent plan over years. And the leadership seem to keep shifting that plan fairly whimsically in favour of the next shiny thing (RIP the pillars) or the public communication between plan (self reliance, focus on Academy, cut our cloth, nest egg) is at odds with the public communication of targets and expectations (get promoted, dont fall into the bottom half of table even for a few weeks, outperform, top 10 budget, great squad). That, as a fan, is frustrating and requires really good, open comms to fully understand and question - and we don't get that these days, which adds to the toxicity, which then - apparently - makes leadership retreat from that toxicity even further. A vicious circle.

Most importantly, appointing his own very inexperienced and seemingly somewhat disinterested son as Chair was a catastrophic error. You need to work twice as hard to overcome nepotism, not half as hard. But, with that decision made, we need to understand that it is his son and so an almost impossible decision to roll back because obviously, picking between the club and your blood, you choose the latter. 

I think a lot of the toxicity flows from this replacement when Steve decided to take a step back and Steve's inability/understandable unwillingness to roll it back or intervene to address it. It wasn't a serious decision that you'd expect from a serious man like him. And that, I think, has always undermined some of the serious aspirations they have for this club. 

58 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Didn't Mourinho win the Premier league and Pep the Champions League after those decisions ?

Again, this is my point. You can do this cherry picking of things they got right and wrong to even the most successful managers. 

If the criterion is 'won stuff' then that is different conversation, but not the point I was responding to.

1 hour ago, steveybadger said:

But haven’t those managers won things? Just a thought.

Exactly my point, right. 

6 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Is this the same Frank Lampard that is reportedly a very poor man manager, that blanked many senior Chelsea pros, tried to sell Rudiger in a January window as he was deemed not good enough. The same Lampard that split the Chelsea dressing room. Whoopee can't wait.

The same Mourinho that sold De Bruyne and Salah; the same Pep who fell out with Ibra and was openly disrespected by Messi in the changing room; the same Tuchel that got knocked out of the German Cup by a third division side last night….

…you can do this for every manager. 

11 minutes ago, 42nite said:

Won nothing.

What was combined number of career trophies of the managers that got the three teams promoted from the championship last year? 

7 hours ago, Street red said:

And if it wasn't for Nigel Pearson and Gould the club would be in a very s*** position.

Could you not, if you wanted to which I’m sure you don’t, make exactly the same point about Steve Lansdown (underwriting massive losses each year to keep us in championship) and Brian Tinnion (establishing the pathway that has allowed us to sell £35m of youth product in last few years). 
 

I am not especially happy with the club right now. But there is some very convenient cherry picking of heroes and villains going on on this forum. Alongside some wild catastrophizing of the situation we are in. 

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

As an advocate for a “football-man” somewhere between manager / head-coach and board, I’m perfectly happy with Tinnion.  When Holden was appointed I wondered if Tinnion could help provide the buffer between Dean and Ashton.  That wasn’t implemented.

I would be a hypocrite if I back-tracked on that set-up now.

It is clear from the meetings we (Harry, me etc) had with RG and SG (Gilhespy), which were pre-Tinnion’s promotion to Technical Director that Nige drove a lot of the football strategy, Gould drove the operational / football-finance / compliance strategy side of it…and I suspect there were some disagreements in there.  Sat in the middle but intrinsically linked was recruitment, requiring balance on both sides.  But Nige defined the types of player he wanted, RG facilitated the financial jigsaw, SG found the players (others chipped in with their recommendations too).  Tinnion’s input as Academy Director was sought too, for his General talent ID skills, but also the challenge on Academy Pathway.

What we now get to see is Tinnion perform, without Gould and Pearson driving it.  That’s a very big shift in resources!

He will of course be supported by Rawcliffe and Marshall instead of Gould and “new man” instead of Pearson.  But he is now the one under the spotlight.

It may be his time to shine.  We will get to find out

I wanted to to reply to @Red-Robbo’s post before yours, even though he posted after yours, because I wanted to set the scene of Tinnion’s role and involvement and his progression to TD first.

I don’t actually subscribe to your view that you do well you get promoted.  That very much assumes that the the job you’ve been promoted too requires the same skills and competencies.

Should the best salesman be promoted to sales manager for example.  Sales Manager is a different ball game.

My job is a Business Analyst.  If I was a permie, a promotion in the organisation I work would be Senior Business Analyst.  But that role isn’t about being a better, more skilled Business Analyst, it’s more of a management job, managing the Business Analyst, a different skillset.  It helps to have been a Business Analyst to understand the tasks, critique their work, etc, but it’s not necessarily the natural progression it appears.

What do you do btw?

Secondly, do you promote and then see if they’re qualified, as you suggest with Tinnion?  Or do you wait to see whether they’ve “got it” (the skills and competencies) first.  In some cases it’s fine to let someone learn on the job, but we can see why we often see people promoted outside of their level of competence.

 

There is def no assumption from me that a career pathway contains jobs that have same skills and competencies. Businesses need to create pathways to retain talent, not put ceilings over people.  A promotion nearly always involves new skills, often that are very different from previous roles. But you identify talent and grow them. In so doing, you stretch them. 

So your question ‘do you promote and then wait to see if they are qualified?’ is, to me, a false framing. I understand why you asked it that way and appreciate what you’re getting at. But, yes, in a sense you do often promote people before they are ‘qualified’. (Assuming you don’t mean formal qualifications). Its about identifying talent and capacities and then having a confidence that someone has the skills, ethic and capacity to grow into a new role. No guarantees. but no guarantees the other way either. Esp in football. Is Zidane qualified to manage Real if pirlo is not qualified to manage juve? I’m sure people that wanted to make the argument that one was, one wasn’t, could retrospectively make a case why ZZ was qualified and Pirlo wasn’t. But no one is accurately making the case prospectively. 

Anyway, I’m not sure it’s useful to go down a rabbit hole of discussion about  how to promote and retain talent.  My point is a more general one in reaction to a strain of posts I’ve seen in last few days: Brian Tinnion is not a football know nothing. In each role at City since he came back, he has proven himself so it’s not an outrage or cronyism or because he’s a snake, a grass, or a sycophant that he holds a senior football position at this club, and there should be an element of respect if he holds a different football opinion to someone else on the football side. What in your opinion is a qualifying career path for a DoF or Technical Director? Is Tinn’s elevation that unreasonable compared to the career path of others in similar roles at  other clubs?

Whether he is making the right calls, I’m not arguing about. Whether long term he grows into this more senior position, I have no idea. Whether, if it is true that he is now assuming a more expansive role than previously outlines, that is in best interests of club, I have no idea. And I’m definitely not saying you have called him any of the names above, although I get the impression from your post, maybe unfairly, you are not that enamoured with him.  

But I’ve been as disgusted by various comments about someone who I think deserves much more respect from fans of this club, as I have been about the decision to get rid of Nige. Hence being compelled to write much more than I usually do on this particular topic. Not expecting to change minds (ya man posting snake emojis will continue posting his emojis.)
 

And certainly not wanting to defend any aspect of this total shower from the club. But I am wanting to defend Tinns a bit. 

45 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

Agreed, and if he has done a good job at the academy he deserves credit. However, the day after Pearson is sacked he pops up in a much bigger role than the one announced in November. The TD role put him in charge of recruitment and the academy. 24 hours after NP is sacked he the new head coach reports to him and he sets the footballing philosophy for the entire club. Does that not smell a bit?

But smell of what? That this is all Tinnion pushing self advancement and power grab? As opposed to a genuine attempt to do what right for club, right or wrong. 

I guess time will tell. 
 

I don’t want to go all in on defence as I hate the decision and the comms around it is risible. Including Tins interview. That was a mistake unless the club gives him free rein to speak openly. 
it’s the personal abuse of a man I think deserves better I am against. And the rewriting of history that Tinns is a football know nothing by people who clearly know less about football than Tinns. 
 

But say decision is right and new coach does well and football improves, is Tins right? Or is he still a snake for those who think that? 

I would add that I think that is optimistic. And no matter what, the lack of credit and acknowledgment of what Nige has done to build foundations is indefensible. 
 

44 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

Just for clarity, what were my "worst words"? 

And also can you find the point where I said BT has "done nothing for the club since he's been brought back"?

So yes, you have put words in my mouth.

You may be annoyed with people giving Tinnion abuse, you seem very protective of him, fine - but I am not one of those people giving him personal abuse, i've actively it actually. So go and reply to those people directly about that if you want, not me.

This is a BCFC football forum, all i'm doing is debating the job he's doing at BCFC and the quality of his opinion. 

I’m not getting into an internet back and forth on the ‘point to where I said blah’. They never end well. 
 

it’s not just you I’m picking up and agree you are more measured than the real name calling posts. And yes, I am annoyed by those as I don’t think they are properly justified yet apart from by hearsay and echo chamber. And I think they go hand in hand with belittling a man who clearly cares about this club more than most, clearly knows a lot about football, and has played a leading part in turning our awful youth dev around. 
 

But I would say phrases like ‘to suddenly go from radio co host’ and ‘lies and arrogance’ go beyond an objective critique of his job performance. I know you will disagree with that. 

But again, not particularly singling you out.  I’m really against all this personal and professional abuse of a man I think deserves a lot more respect, who loves the club and is obviously so proud of the youth pathway. But all that aside, a man that has done a good professional job in each role he’s been given in recent years and so has earned promotions  

Not really much more to say as I know I won’t change minds of those who have decided Tinns is some kind of cancer in the club. And I’m similarly unlikely to change my mind and suddenly start thinking that he is. 

4 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

I think you've put a few words in my mouth there.

As I said, I feel for him - he clearly has played a big role, alongside many others, in finally getting our academy sorted and up and running and producing at the levels it should have 10/15 years ago. No one is taking that away from him.

My question would be, does that qualify him for the role he's now in? Personally i'd like a more ambitious appointment - but as always, we wait and see and time will tell, as it always does in the end what his legacy will ultimately be. 

No words put in your mouth at all. I actually left out your worst words to give you benefit of the doubt. 
 

Re does that qualify him - if I do well in my job, I get promoted. And if I do well in that role, I get promoted again. That is what qualifies you for the next job up. And that is exactly what he’s done. He was not handed on a plate the technical director job. He’s progressed on merit. And now in role, time will tell if he’s qualified. But what would show him as unqualified is if he was too scared to voice his own football opinions. 

18 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

I do feel a bit sorry for Tinnion TBH - Clearly a Bristol City man through and through, in large part due to the fact that the vast majority of his footballing life has been at BCFC.

But there's the problem - good player, failed (badly) manager. Little CV outside our club and what the fans see is him working his way up the greasy pole and it looks like more cronyism, something that is cancerous at this club under SL.

Suddenly he's going from being co-host of Robins TV and being the go to man for youth prospect info and development...to being instrumental in firing one of the most popular managers for decades, and people are rightly asking, hang on, how did that happen. Has he earned that? Clearly many think, no.

Pearson vs. Tinnion on footballing matters...sorry there's only one winner. 

A very harsh lesson these past two weeks for Tinnion that with power comes responsibility and consequences.

But he’s not a radio co host is he. And there is ample evidence that he has done well in the footballing jobs he has been given over last several years.
 

Unless you are saying it is pure coincidence that we have gone from never producing a youth asset who does anything with their career to a fairly consistent pipeline of players of interest to top flight  

I don’t get these straw man arguments. Can people not disagree with Tins without rewriting history and saying he’s done nothing for club since they brought him back? 

16 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

I’m furious as anyone about Pearson’s sacking and I think my other posts will bear that out but there are two things in this topic I do slightly disagree with.

1) the idea they it is an inherently terrible thing that we have a Technical Director/DoF-type figure who ensures that what the manager is doing fits in with the club’s wider strategy. 
 

I actually think - in principle - that is a good thing and leaves us much better protected if a manager suddenly leaves as it means - in theory - we’re not constantly rebuilding from scratch when the manager changes. Obviously we will see in the coming weeks what happens in practice but I do think the shambolic succession of managers between GJ and Cotts shows why there need to be someone who is not the manager ensuring consistency.

2) the idea that Brian Tinnion is a terrible choice for Technical Director due to lack of experience. He is an ex player who has spent the last 15 years working in backstage strategy roles in football. I think his background suits the role far more than someone who has not worked in football or someone who has only coached or managed - which is very different to working on the strategy side.

Don’t get me wrong - my view is sacking Pearson is a terrible decision and Tinnion may well be completely unsuitable for the job he is doing. But I don’t think the actual job is a bad thing so much as the execution of it and I think an ex footballer who has worked in football development roles is as suited as anyone to do it, even if it turns out Tinnion’s personal attributes mean he is wrong for the job despite relevant experience.

 

PS for clarity, I think Pearson had a far better strategic overview of the club than Tinnion, the board, the owner or anyone I can remember at the club for a long time. But I think that is very unusual in a manager and you generally need a Technical Director or Director of Football as most managers are much more short termist.

Completely agree with this. 

I’d go even further and say that the evidence Tinns is unsuitable for the job has been conflated with him being caught up in this odd messaging around the sacking. By and large he’s doing a good job given the hand dealt. And so often on this forum, people bemoan lack of input from ‘football people’. But does anyone on this forum honestly think they know more about football than Tinns? 

I’ve never felt more confident in the quality of player we are bringing in for the money we are spending. The current hit rate is very good. And obviously we have all seen the current academy hit rate and quality. There was a time when Dan Cole’s and Aaron Brown were as good as it got every decade or so  

Tinns seems to be doing a really decent job. And if he has footballing opinions that differ from manager, it is entirely right he voices those. That is literally the job. (so long as manager remains in final control of team). 
 

And I say all that while acknowledging the decision on Nige is wrong and the half assed messaging around it which is leaving out a lot of stuff we would all rather club were up front about is patronising and disrespectful to fans. 
 

But I still think it’s fine for Tinns to have his own opinions, in keeping with his job, that differ from Nige. And that doesn’t make him a snake, rat, grass or any of the other grim shouts currently directed at him. 

10 hours ago, Simon bristol said:

No one has still explained how a club that finished 14th last year, and sold its best youth player in decades while signing a couple of lads for 1-2 million and having 1 keeper who has ever played a championship game was suddenly supposed to be pushing for promotion? If tinman really believes that then we are even more screwed. In the unlikely event that we dont finish in the top 6 with no new signings in January and the new manager of their choosing, i assume he and the lansdowns will take responsibility for their decisions and resign?

For me it’s more this obvious party line of ‘as the club in 15th place in the table’. This is repeated a few times as if 15th is where we have finished. We HAVE been challenging at right end of table, are still not far off playoffs, and have quickly fallen to 15th off the back of a few bad results when struck by what they concede are massive injuries. ‘15th’ is a snapshot in time that is deliberately being exaggerated to say we are falling short. The obvious come back would be that for a lot of the season we’ve been hovering just outside top 6 - so we have usually been challenging at right end which seems to be the bar they are setting. 
 

I’m still not seeing ‘snake’ or some of the more vicious stuff being thrown at Tins. But it’s annoying that there is so much getting left unsaid and hinted at around injuries and style of play and training methods. Would have a lot more respect if they joined the dots and said ‘we want to play a different kind of football to Nigel’. Wouldn’t agree, but at least it would be some clarity. 
 

Pretty woeful as a comms exercise. Not what was needed. 

26 minutes ago, phantom said:

In short.. You've obviously missed what has been happening in the past few weeks 

Clearly.

1 hour ago, Henry said:

I agree. Just there was no need to reply to a fan like that. 
 

He’s got into bed with the Lansdown so he needs to deal with the fall out now.

I’m really struggling to understand all the Tins hate that is emerging across the forum. 
 

Done incredible things with the youth set up and scouting and clearly loves the club. 
 

I’ve seen accusations he’s a snake. Someone calling him a ‘grass’ because of stuff that ex players who badly let the club down in the early 2000s have supposedly said since retiring. Criticism that he reacted to someone on Twitter saying he lacked bollox - as if anyone wouldn’t react to that. 
 

What have I missed here about Tins? Is it literally just he works for the Lansdowns? He’s doing a great job so surely deserves chance to advance his career without necessarily being ‘a yes man’ or ‘in SLs pocket’. 
 

I loved Nige as the face of our club.  I’m absolutely gutted he’s gone. I have been a Steve Lansdown supporter and am gutted at this behaviour and the fact that all those who have been calling him an arrogant dictator are slowly being proved correct (although I still think there are obvious great things he’s done for this club).
But I cannot for life of me understand the ire being directed at Tinnion when he seems to be someone doing his job well, who has completely revolutionised our approach to youth progression, and always comes across as so passionate about the club. Even if him and NP didn’t see eye to eye, that alone doesn’t make Tins the baddie here. 

4 hours ago, Fpcity said:

There's been a few ex players on podcasts saying he was a bit of grass in his playing days? 

Or 'a proper professional grateful for the incredible opportunity he has been given and not a complete bellend determined to booze his career away' as it is also know. 

5 hours ago, SuperRed said:

Tinnion has been empowered by Lansdown to run the entire football side of club despite having no credentials to do so. Expect a young “head coach” to join the cosy club where the key is to never employ anyone who might pose a threat or deliver a few home truths due to their superior knowledge and experience 

As much as I hate the decision today, I hate the ire being directed at Tinns even more. Man is a legend and doing an incredible job. Attacks on him by association are ridiculous. 

Peversely, if the decision was actually Tinns wanting a HC he could work with, at least it would make some footballing sense and I could start to get behind it. But I don't think that is what has happened here at all. 

Strong preference for Eustace out of the names mentioned so far. 
 

But like most others, I’m pretty gutted to find ourselves in this position. Felt like we were making steady progress and even though it was going to take time, it would eventually work and our fans seemed unusually patient. Sacking Nige is really off. I’m a big defender of SL but this just feels gross. Coming so soon after Phil Alexander leaving too.. clearly there are issues. 
 

It shouldn’t undo all SL has done for us. Which is a lot. But this is so at odds with his usual MO of backing the manager - esp when barely any fans were calling for it. So clearly it’s a personality thing - likely between Nige and JL. 
 

Which is all to say, whoever the new manager is, they have to start against context of barely any fans wanting them to be there. Tough gig. 
 

I’ll back them (a few names aside) - but I was happier with what we had. 

On 21/09/2023 at 18:36, steviestevieneville said:

This is my point though. I can only speak about SL & there’s probably a lot of others that let’s their egos dictate. Football isn’t his first sport , so what makes him think he’ll know better than someone that’s been in the game all their lives. He should of taken advice from someone in the game. Someone like joe Jordan would of been perfect . He’s got a track record of giving people a chance with little or no experience. Tinnion, Millen, Johnson, Holden & mciines to a lesser exent. The successes , Johnson snr, cotts & Pearson , all experienced & track record of promotions. All be it , cotts wasn’t his appointment & Pearson phoned him for the job when he royally ****** up with Holden. The only appointment he himself made with any success was GJ. Not a great track record is it . 

Isn’t this entire forum people with no real professional football experience thinking they know better than people that have been in football their entire lives? That’s sort of the fun of being a football fan. 

15 minutes ago, Calculus said:

He might just want to get back to London.

He might have done something wrong.

He might be ill.

He might have been offered another job somewhere.

The club might be near a sale.

Mark Ashton and LJ might be coming back.

No idea - we'll just have to wait and see.

One thing for sure: Alexander would have known what to expect from Lansdown - he was at Palace for some of the same time as Coppell and would likely have had a word before signing up with us.

I’m definitely not in the SL out brigade. And I do think a lot of stuff on here is conspiratorial at times. But, in fairness, the resignation statement not mentioning SL would suggest - suggest only - that there is a problem between them rather than any of the things you mention. 

18 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

We’d bemoan him getting caught on the ball and us countering for the equaliser.

This is OTIB. Bemoaning is unavoidable. 

8 minutes ago, Denbury Red said:

Sadly one word springs to mind - Wages?????

Possibly. But if Blackpool coped with them, you would hope we could have. Moot now. But thought he looked great. 

Not to talk about a Swansea player after a performance like that but Patino is very good already. And now has three assists already for season. Would have loved him here. 

21 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Time to move on.  No conviction; no proof; the club says they’re sure he didn’t do what he was accused of; the bloke has admitted he is far from perfect and has apologised.  What more do people want?  There are quite a few people who have been actually found guilty of reprehensible acts but who have been allowed to resume their chosen career (a murderer acting on Eastenders springs to mind).  I don’t know what really went on, but then it’s not for me to come to conclusions.  Let he who is without sin, etc. etc.

Well presumably, while we aren’t ‘without sin’, we aren’t all woman beaters and rapists. Unless all sins are equal so we can never say anything about anyone doing anything??
 

As well discussed, the ‘cleared of all charges’, while arguably true at a technical level, is only half the story and the pictures and audio tell their own public story that require some public explanation if he wants public forgiveness. (If legal resolution and private forgiveness is all he wants and needs, that’s absolutely fine, but that likely won’t get him his career back any time soon). 
 

Admitting you ‘weren’t perfect’ is not a confession or an explanation such that people can move on. He needs to explain it properly. If he doesn’t want to, if it is too damaging for his partner, fine. But he probably won’t have a chance to get his football career back until he does.

Hes basically said ‘I’m not perfect but I didn’t do what I’m accused of. I know it looks like I’m a serial abuser and possibly a rapist and there is strong evidence showing I am, but I’m not, so I hope that’s settled and can I move on now and get a sweet contract because I’m ace at football’. 
 

I believe in redemption and rehabilitation. But first step in understanding abusive behaviour is to admit to it. If he’s not willing to do that, then how can he ask for public forgiveness? And public forgiveness is what he needs to get his career back. 
 

And, the thing no one seems to mention, just because he’s been caught out and had a baby with his victim, that doesn’t draw a line under his abuse. If he isn’t properly addressing it, if he’s in denial, then the chances are he will do it again. Second chances are not impossible. Third chances much less likely.