Red Skin

10 hours ago, Rocking Red Cyril said:

A fully fit midfield gives different options. A fully fit squad in it's entirety is going to give LM some good problems. But the form from the two west Ham games needs to taken into the league week on and out. That's the crunch really. Could be an interesting season from now on

COYR

Yes, and some real options to change things in game which we have struggled with.  

16 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Pearce lets down SOTC tonight!!!!  Reckon he’s been kidnapped!

Working on his notes for the game apparently.  Desperately trimming 200 Bristol City references down to a paltry 50. 

I'm not sure about him doing tonight's game.  I get more enjoyment when he manages to drop a Bristol City reference into a commentary on a France v USA women's international. Much more of a challenge. 

57 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

Leaving aside the black and white opinion club politics of the signing.

Is Twine a signing that improves the team, yes.

Is Twine a signing that develops the squad, potentially no.

That’s the thing for me now with new signings, it’s not about a shiny new thing, a few more points this season and more ‘feel good’ down the gate factor for a few games - we’ve been trying to do that for years and getting nowhere.

It’s about the strategy and the plan. I don’t quite see where he fits in that yet, with the current info we have around the deal.

Under RG and NP we didn’t have loans for the sake of it and the development of our squad benefitted from that.

If Twine is one of 2 or 3 signings this window that help us push on for 6th, brilliant I absolutely love and welcome that. However if he’s the only 1, IMO he will not be the player that makes the difference.

So, what’s the point? Suppose it depends if you think we still have a chance this season at 6th or not, personally I’m looking at next. Call me Negative Nancy. Let’s see how the rest of the window goes.

Therefore I’m asking the question - how does he fit in the team with regards to development for next season?

Drop Bell or Mehmeti? Or is it Williams or TGH? If LM’s decided Williams doesn’t get a new contract, fine. Harsh maybe but there’s a plan there.

If he plays Twine for 15 plus games (then he leaves us in the summer) having dropped TGH or Bell or Mehmeti, all players who are contracted to play next season, I’d be asking questions.

Does that make me an ungrateful Karen? Well I don’t think so. IMO I’m looking more long term because it’s going to be a long term strategy (one we seemed to be on) that will get us out this division.
 

We know we can’t buy our way out so we need that long term thinking. There’s a place for a good loan if it’s a “final piece of the jigsaw” type but not one or two Prem loans here and there to maybe finish 10th instead of 14th. 

I'm not sure I agree with your analysis, but I applaud your gender fluidity Nancy/Karen.

ST will hopefully provide us with some goals and assists and fun until the end of the season.  He will offer more than Weimann. He isn't blocking anyone in the academy because we don't have a ready made replacement coming through. (I am not sure how far away Benerous is or what the future holds for him).

Right now Burnley want too much money, so we are better waiting until the summer to get more value in the market or seeing which division Burnley are in and maybe doing a more favourable deal. 

It'll help us see how LM's philosophy and style of play measures up when he has more players that fit with it. 

48 minutes ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

I am just pleased we have a good player coming in which can only be good to watch

100%.  It's getting really bizarre on here.  

We have swapped Weimann, who isn't a fit for the way we want to play, for Twine, who is.  Probably for around the same outlay in terms of loan fee/wages. 

It seems like Burnley want more than he's generally thought to be worth, so it doesn't seem that he was ever a sensible permanent signing if that is the case. 

What we have done is improve the squad for now.  We can then focus on the market in the summer when we have much better chance of getting value.  

Welcome Scott. 

Mods:  This is still a signing so shouldn't this be moved to the main forum?  

9 hours ago, Maesknoll Red said:

As ever interesting thread with some well thought out posts and I enjoy reading those who have a far more nuanced understanding of the technical aspects of the game than me (I just like open attacking football - I think my most enjoyable season ever was 89/90).

My point to add, is we seem to do this forensic examination several times a season, we see the owners blamed, managers, players unable to adapt and more - of course, I only touch the surface with a summary like that.  But it’s not just this current period, it’s not the change of Manager, it’s the story of the last nine and a bit years…. See the table below, at least we are consistent in disappointing the fan base, should we be surprised?

Bang average, or even just below average with a 14.5 average finishing place since being promoted, I’ll admit my enthusiasm has waned, I’ve gone from season ticket and seasons where I didn’t miss a game home or away, to now mostly watching on a fire stick and then not being too bothered if I miss a game.  There doesn’t seem to be any hope of improvement in sight.  I’m critical of the parachute payments, they obviously have some detrimental influence on the Championship, but they aren’t the reason we are so average.

I’ve pretty much remained in the supportive camp for Steve Lansdown, but I do wonder what the endgame is now, what’s the goal?  If it’s not getting promoted, then why is he bothering?  I’m cautious and worldly wise enough to be careful a wanting a new investor regardless of their background and motives, but for us to have been so consistently inconsistent, to end up as one of the leagues mid table no hopers, then there must be a deeper root cause than players, Manger and coaching.

I think the endgame is to sell up, and that's why promotion remains the goal.  I just think they are just going about it in such cack-handed way some fans doubt whether that's what they actually want the club to be promoted.  The Bristol Sport conglomerate needs to broken up too, if they want to get out. 

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Your final sentence is probably at the nub of a lot of the debate on here - why does LM get the time and resources (resources especially) Nige didn’t. And I think it’s that some including me think we won’t be comparing apples with apples when we firm our judgements.

Yeah, that still a spectre haunting OTIB.  The simple answer is because our owners wanted it that way.  We may not like it, and it certainly doesn't seem fair, but what we've been served up 

I enjoy reading the analysis by yourself and SD to mention a couple posters. You see things I don't see tbh.  However, I was reflecting today and I cannot recall the same scrutiny of tactics after every game we played under Pearson.  My memory may be playing tricks in me, but it seemed more of case of singling out players falling to perform any particular week, with the usual suspects being scapegoated.   LM still seems to be carrying the expectations put in him by the ownership by sacking a popular manager and heralding a era of front foot.  And that isn't fair either, so I'm still inclined to be generous in my understanding of the challenges he is trying to overcome.   

Time will tell.  

4 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

KDB is one of the most under hyped players in premier league history in my opinion despite being probably the best midfielder the premier league has ever seen. 

Look at Salah for example, gets all the plaudits he deserves. But for some bizarre reason, KDB doesn't recieve the same sort of hype. I don't know if thats down to his quiet personality or because of who he plays for. 

He easily goes into my greatest prem XI.

I don't know who you hang out with or what TV shows you watch, but I think he's universally appreciated as a fantastic footballer.   

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

The bottom line I think for me is that LM is pretty inflexible. Thats been seen in trying to impose a style when he doesn’t have the players to do so, and then in the in game piece. And I’m yet to be convinced he can do the job, mainly for that reason.

It's always the last paragragh with us isn't it?  Was with you right up to this. Ha, ha.

Let's take a different view on LM's inflexibility. 

- I think Manning is right to persevere with his approach, because as I outlined above there are lots of reason why it may not be coming off.  I'd be disappointed if he didn't have the courage of his convictions otherwise.

- Maybe he is being generous to the players in terms of the time he's giving them to adapt?  In the same way I'm prepared to give him time.

- LM came into the club with a hierarchy convinced they had the players for success playing 'front foot' football.  Maybe - and this is a stretch  - a by product of persevering is that he is demonstrating to the hierarchy that we can't have both.  If you want the front foot football then here's the evidence to show that I need some new faces to deliver it, so support me the transfer market?

As you say, good debate.

10 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

I’d kind of put it as a defence of LM tbh. It’s an easy target to say “they changed, why didn’t we” but I think when the change is that unanticipated you cut slack. What then isnt defensible is the delay in reaction.

As to why we do well first vs second then I’d say most managers are predicated to play the way they think is best for their teams. Under LJ a huge criticism was that we changed too much to counteract opponents. I do think (and this speaks to LM being a decent coach) that we generally do well first half when the plan is in, but then we fall down when opponents adapt away from their setup. Fans often criticise playing the opponent as opposed to to strengths so I think we benefit from that first half.

And tbh it is 80-20 to adapt. As I’ve said elsewhere tonight the fullback (for example) can make a decision to show his winger inside as opposed to outside but material changes are totally the mangers remit. And that is the bit he is getting really wrong at present as your comment in respect of reaction confirms

Fair comment.  I agree with most of that, but whilst we make the same observation of failing to adap, I don't think we see the reasons behind this being the same.  I see it as WE fail to adapt, whereas you tend to lay most of this on LM.  Here's the mitigating factors as I see them

- players still have had quite limited coaching. LM mentioned 6 days, which seems a little conservative, but the obvious message is that he doesn't feel he has time to coach as much as he'd like or the players need i.e. they aren't equipped to deal with every eventuality they encounter.  You can't coach a unfamiliar pattern of play from the sidelines in game.

- players aren't reading and/or understanding the game to make in game changes and respond with what they are faced with.  

- players aren't choosing the right solutions to counter what's happening.  Forget which game now, but to beat a high press Max started kicking long. This stretched the game and opened up space in the middle of the pitch, but Max continued to kick long rather than utilise the midfield  He did the first bit right, but failed to recognise and change.

- players just fail to execute or implement things correctly.  They just fall short for a period of the game.

- We don't have the right players.  I think it's clear we need clever coachable players that can understand tactically what's happening.  They also need the physical attributes to implement what is needed. We probably don't have enough that can do both.  James/Weimann can probably do the former but not the latter. Maybe TGH has the ability, but not the understanding yet? 

I think I am more forgiving of LM as I feel these other factors go a long way to explaining why we aren't putting in complete performances.  I have seen enough good stuff in the games so far to suggest given time and some signings, LM will take us in the right direction.   

For you, and others, I may be letting LM off the hook, but what is the alternative?  If you feel he can do the job you have to support him and give him more time and resources. 

Just now, Silvio Dante said:

I’m not sure I did criticise LM for not anticipating the change??? You highlighted one part of my paragraph but for some reason missed the part which said and to be fair I’m not sure many of us would

My main issue with LM is not “reacting to the reaction” which is what your last paragraph indicates. You’re actually agreeing with me despite the misreading!

True I did, but it's a pretty redundant sentence with that qualification so why mention at all?

You ignore my other point, so I guess that's fair though.  If everyone knows how we are gonna play, then why did have a good first half?

It's clear we aren't able to play a full 90 mins dominating a game, except may be Watford.  What isn't clear is why.  On a previous post along these lines is you thought 80% Manning, 20% players but I don't see it the same way.

2 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

You could also least tag me Fevs, I might not have seen this!

Theres a lot I could say today but you’re right - it would follow the similar pattern about reacting in game. We were the better side for my money half one but I don’t think LM anticipated the change made by Lowe - and to be fair, I’m not sure many of us would but there was always a chance - manager in last chance saloon, booed off, what’s to lose? The trick is once that unexpected change was made not to be all rabbit in headlights and just assume “the process” would work - we were being asked different questions.

There are two real points for me today. The first is the adaptability in game - that’s obvious. The second is that teams know how to play us. I’m fascinated to see what Watford do next week having been torn apart by us - for me Ishmael is a good enough coach to ask a different question to Boxing Day with what he knows now.

Finally, I’ll leave it for now with the thought that a certain Brian Tinnion should remember the 1993/94 season. We were better than Liverpool for 2 2/3 games. Had less of the ball than them. In the league it was turgid stuff with a mid table record and less than a goal a game scored. The turgid football was found out and the next season was a disaster. Just saying.

If teams know how to play against us, then why did to dominate the first half?

I don't think it's fair to criticise LM not not anticipating a change by Lowe.  Maybe he should have reacted, but he can't really anticipate and make changes on guesswork.

There does seem to be a pattern where we dominate early, then don't react to a tactical change by the opposition though.   

Horrible illness.  I'd say he's probably had a good life. I hope he has a good death.  

10 hours ago, Davefevs said:

When interviewed last week, Moyes played down having much to do with Manning.  Was more a case of (paraphrased) “yeah, I was aware of him, I watched some u23s games, but that’s about it”.  

Was going to Wednesday, but talk that it has fallen through, rekindling…..….Charlton’s interest.

To be fair to Manning, he also said he didn't really have anything to do with Moyes either, though he was aware of his influence around the place (or words to that effect). 

I like that about him, very understated.  I remember a question in one of the interview when he first joined about biggest influences on his career.  Being part of the Man City set up, I was expecting some mention of Pep even as a somewhat distant role model.  Instead Manning described about 4 very obscure coaches in various clubs like Ipswich that I'd never heard of.  He also mentioned working in school as Teaching Assistant as important in learning to deal with people. 

Very refreshing.

10 hours ago, Blagdon red said:

At present, there has to be a flip-down seat. In future, who knows. That may change.

Personally, I think it should, because it is a safety hazard to have wobbly seats accessible to fans in areas being operated as standing, since fans then can - and will - stand on them and could thus fall off and get injured.

In conventional standing areas (terraces) structures on which fans can stand are banned. So, logic says that this rule may follow in due course for 'safe standing' areas too, with a requirement for the seats to be secured upright when the area is being used for standing. As, indeed, is already the way things are done all over Europe and, for instance, at Celtic.

A wise man once said to me always live at the top of a hill.  That way the walk home will keep you fit and you will live a long life. 

I told him to stop preaching and jumped into an Uber. 

Sorry if this has been covered already, but what does the safe standing look like these days? 

I'd be happy to stand for the game itself, but being a bit of an old git these days I appreciate a sit down at half time.   Would each standing area have a seat that could be used when needed or are these fixed either up or down like the rail seat design?  

54 minutes ago, TDarwall said:

We really made a hash of the opportunity of having GON with us.  Seems a top bloke too.

 

8f he was his coaching badges whilst he was here, then you'd think we'd have given him some kind of coaching opportunity.  Maybe he was considered too much of a threat?

Nice to see him get some recognition from Shay Given on MOTD.   Max is doing fine.  

Thankfully, the powers that be have finally faced up to what really happened at Hillsborough and admitted the real reasons were poor policing.   It's time now to revisit some of the decision made at the time made under false pretences, like safe standing, that have taken some of the fun, enjoyment and atmosphere out of going the game.   

I'm tempted, but I'm slightly concerned about all those kisses in your name.  Can you reassure me that when park we will just be getting straight out of the car and going to the game, rather than hanging around in car park for 'friends' to show up. 

I consider my first proper boots as my first screw-ins.  It was the 70s and we were pretty skint so they were second hand pumas that were two sizes too big, but I wore them.  First pair that I got bought for me new, were Adidas Santiago.  Loved those boots.

53 minutes ago, Ciderhead433 said:

Whoever kicked it had to go and get it back.

Some horrible scrote lived on the side of the green where I used to play football with my cousins and had this sign on his shed wall adjoining the pitch.  

Needless to say there was no chance of getting the ball back if it went over his fence.  

We treated him to a game of Wally against his shed wall with the new ball as a thank you.  

Really looking forward to seeing this lad play.  With all the Irish lads at club I may have to dust off my tricolour and bring it down the gate. 

@downendcity  Great post!

I do remember getting through what seem like 100s of these back in the day.   Cost my poor dad a fortune.

I hope this post pricks the conscience of the grumpy bastards that kept the ball when you accidentally kicked it into their back garden.  Miserable sods! 

4 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I think that’s giving Liam a bit of a free pass. I do agree with something he said early on about players not being able to necessarily hear him so having to make their own decisions on the pitch, but those decisions can only be micro as opposed to macro. A change in response to the opposition is more macro and has to come from the manager - or there is no point in him being there.

It’s fair to say that whether people like LMs style or not, the biggest weakness since he took over has been poor in game management as you acknowledge above. But that is 80% manager, 20% players - I’m damn sure if someone was not executing what they’d been told on a macro basis LM or any manager would have them off.

Bottom line is other managers have countered us mid game. Our manager/head coach needs to have the ability to do the same.

I think we have generally tended to start games well, and other managers have made tactical changes at HT to counter us.  It is then that we don't respond.  And yes, we can disagree about percentages of accountability, but I'm not absolving LM from some responsibility for that. 

Perhaps I am being too patient, but I am not sure what the alternative is?  Hound Manning? Get on the players backs so they become even less ambitious on the ball?  Right now we really need to be supporters rather than detractors.  

Despite what the hierarchy said we all know we are a number of players short of top 6.  It'll take some new signings to take us further.  Admittedly it's only been for short periods, but if we can play the way LM wants us to play with players capable of playing that way then I feel progress is possible.