Red Skin

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I kinda agree.  (Totally disagree about Hull though)

I’m not that fussed about winning runs, losing runs, per se (except momentum +/-), whether we win more at home than away or vice-versa.

Ultimately we need to win more than we lose to move up the table.

Despite a good run, we are back at equal wins and losses.  That good run recovered us from a bad run where we slipped to less wins than losses.

We are witnessing a mid table squad showing all the inconsistent of a mid table squad.  We are seeing some positives against some opponents and some deficiencies against others.

I’m positive about Liam Manning, but I still think results won’t be much different under him.

You know I’m into data, and the only things that have materially changed are:

• patience in possession
• patience in the press (but good triggers)

Our attacking output - chances / shots / xG - has regressed slightly 

Our defensive output - has improved slightly.

Simplistic view of why - both our play and our opponents play is more structured.  Our patience in possession gives time to our opponents to get back into shape. And vice-versa.

Unless others have different definitions, it isn’t more attacking, more front foot.  It’s not creating more chances, nor better chances.

It’s still relatively early days.  We are about where we should be - 11th.  He needs the window to bolster us.

Good post.

Obviously results and performances haven't been what any of us wanted.

It's a forum so everyone has a right to an opinion, but what I find frustrating in some of these opinions is that people seem very quick to judge and write off the style LM is attempting based on results and performances without considering any the following mitigating factors:

1)  Player implementation.  How successful the players are in implementing it.   Just listen to LM post-match comments on Saturday and he mentioned that the players weren't brave enough.  He did not send them out to play turgid unambitious possession football for possession sake.   

2).  Opposition tactics. The opposition's success in countering our initial game plan.  As teams study our performances they will become more successful setting up to  counter it.

3)  Player education. The still limited time LM has had to coach the players on how to deal with all the eventualities and different patterns of play they need to use to deal with different in game scenarios.  The players are still learning.

4). Player understanding and decision making.  The players' ability in game see what is happening and to pick the right approach to counter opposition responses to our initial game plan.  Other than perhaps Watford we haven't seen a complete 90 min LM performance, but we have seen aspects of it for spells in almost all games.   What we haven't done well is change in response to the opposition, which really needs to come from the players (once they've been schooled of course).

Thankfully, LM does recognise these and is staying true to his beliefs despite some poor performances and results, because he is better placed than any of us because he knows what the players have been coached in, the things he still needs to teach them, what he has asked them to do and where they have fallen short.  (Which may mean we need some different players, despite what we were told by the hierarchy).  It's clear from quite expansive comments the players have made that they believe in what LM is doing so I am happy to so along with it too despite the frustrations.

Sure, there are aspects of what we are seeing that are questionable e.g. persevering with one up front.  But maybe when Wells can last a full game, then we might see him and Tommy together up front? 

Despite the protestations otherwise, I still believe that if we had sacked a manager that was unpopular with the fans then LM would be afforded more patience than he is currently being given by some on here.

. and here's the acoustic version.

Love it. 

26 minutes ago, mightyreds89 said:

Now sold out. Looking for 1 child/youth ticket managed to get 2 of the 3 I needed. 

Home alone? 

Didn't go to the game, but obviously saw the feedback on what seemed a great performance. Can't recall you ever scoring the overall team so highly.  Good to see.

I appreciate your concern and obviously you know your son better than me, but will it really be that wild in the away end?   Maybe he won't get as good view as fans will be standing, but won't it be exhilarating for your son to be part of a big away following amongst his own?

I have a young son with Down Syndrome and he absolutely loves away games above any home game.  We stand in the usual seats, not in a disabled section.  There is a sense of danger, but for the most part this isn't in any way real.   He loves singing and being part of a minority in the ground supporting his team.  

By contrast, the atmosphere in the family section of the Lansdown is pretty dire.  

That's very sad.  Please accept my condolences.  

Really pleased with the performance last night and great to be really entertained.   Kinda lost my voice this morning, and that only usually happens for the first couple of games of the season so definitely more to shout about.

It's still early days, but we are playing well for longer spells in games now so I'm optimistic that things will still improve.

It's pretty high stakes at times, but I welcome players trying to beat their man to open things up.  High risk, but high gain when it comes off, and I'll take that all day long.  I would have loved to see Alex Scott and Semenyo playing in a LM team.  Hopefully, we can recruit a couple of gems in January.

Really pleased for the guy.  He'd lost all confidence before and now he seems to have got his mojo back.  

On 09/02/2023 at 11:42, W-S-M Seagull said:

But Real, Barca, PSG, Man City, Bayern etc all get in the Champions league every season anyways. So whats the difference?

And so did Man Utd, but it looks like they won't be this season and maybe for a few more if they don't get their act together.  

It's an unfair meritocracy at present given the finances these clubs enjoy, but at least there is a chance others can break into it. 

@Ghost Rider It's the same reason that I put my kids pictures up on the fridge when they were little, rather than chuck them in the bin because they didn't produce a masterpiece.   You celebrate and cherish what you have.   

(I do get some of what you mean though).  

Nice idea.

1.  Think a ten game rolling average may be more representative to account for run of 5 games that may be either all top or bottom teams, and to cover the batches of game where you may unusually have a lump of away or home games.   Happens sometimes. 

2.  Wonder what this would look like for NP's tenure?

For me right now, it's still about performances. 

I'm not listening now.  You spoilt the ending.

5 hours ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

Are you basing your travel itinerary on a Steve Martin film?

Dead Men Don't Wear Plaidstow?

2 hours ago, formerly known as ivan said:

The fact it’s a load of nonsense?

Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean it's nonsense. 

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

So in Feb I’ll have a better idea, I’ll hopefully see “direction of travel”, but it still won’t be black and white.

Phew, some reason.

11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Being the pedantic bastard I am, possession has actually gone down from almost 49% to just below 48%.  Subtle, but just highlighting perceptions versus facts are often different

Thanks for the fact check.

I believe you.  The earlier games it was up.   The Blackburn game I did notice we had considerably less. 

I was merely pointed out what Manning was saying his incremental approach was rather than putting a case for it being the reality.  

There are different approaches to making incremental change, and from his interviews that seems to be his.  

2 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

  I like that. 

However I find it bizarre that people keep saying this. I think it says a lot about their own mentality. 

Just because I air my concerns, doesn't mean I don't support Manning. For now, he's the head coach. 

I support Bristol City so therefore by default I support Manning. I don't think Williams should start over TGH, however if he does I'll support him by default of my support for this club. 

I don't think the Lansdowns should be running this club. I don't think BT should be technical director. That doesn't mean I don't support the club and hoping that despite their limitations they can make the correct decisions. 

It may have been difficult for others to support Pearson when they didn't want him here but please don't put me in the same bracket as them. 

3pm on Saturday I'll be supporting us hopefully to 3 points regardless of who the owners are, regardless of who the head coach is and regardless of what team is selected. 

People keep saying because of the things you post.  If you think it's a reflection of everyone else's mentality, then you have to start questioning that hypothesis.

It's like the mother watching her son at the passing out parade from the army.   As his company of soldiers all march past their families and assembled dignitaries, all the soldiers are marching in unison except her boy.  'Look at that', she says, 'my Johnny is the only one marching in time!'

I'm glad you will still be supporting the team on Saturday.  

27 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

In which case does Manning need to be more gradual and looking to strengthen some of our weaker points while evolving the side- both awaiting the return of McCrorie, Atkinson, Naismith, Wells and others.

TGH for Williams may provide a bit more craft in midfield too, especially at home.

Maybe so.  I think he probably feels he was doing it incrementally judging from his interviews.  He's talked about  focussing on stopping the opposition initially.  Then getting control (and our possession went up).  Then imposing ourselves on the opposition in terms of attacking play.  

Obviously, things are aren't as simple as they look on the tactics board.  

It'll be interesting when Atkinson comes back.  If we do play a back 3 including him and Dickie we have two CBs capable of taking to ball out of defence. 

3 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

One thing you're not considering is that Manning hasn't got time. Firstly he was expected to push us on this season because otherwise, Jon's words, why make the change? 

We're now looking over our shoulders at the relegation zone and with two very tricky home games coming up, the possibility of being dragged into that is very much real. 

So yea, there isn't time. He was fortunate to have two weeks of training with the players between his 1st and 2nd game. 

We're going round and round in circles here but this style and philosophy wasn't what we were expecting. 

You don't get time in the Championship to do these things. 

Will you still be saying give him time if we're in league one? 

You chose your name well. Every time I post something you fly over and try to shit on it!

What's the WSM stand for?  Won't Support Manning?

9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’m just making a point about their style - comparing to ours - not comparing managers.
 

Yes, McKenna got to test, embed, tweak, as a big club with money in League One.

 

But surely his style can only be judged in terms of the players ability to deliver it?   If the players are still learning and unable to implement it, then it isn't gonna look very good.

You're an IT man, Dave.  Everything is Agile these days.  You can't just take an IT dept that's been going waterfall and tell them now they're doing agile without giving them any proper training. Then when the first project using Agile fails, blame the methodology.  That would mad wouldn't it?

8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

LM’s 1.45 m/s (metres per second going forward) is the slowest on the Champ.

Ipswich have average possessions, but do it the 3rd quickest!  They are front foot, attack football!!!

The difference is that McKenna has been at Ipswich for 2 years embedding his philosophy and methods into his team.   LM has had 6 games.  I'm sure he isn't telling the players to slow things down to 1.45m/s.  They are adapting to a different way of playing and it's taking time.  

I must admit I'd had some misgivings about the kind of character Nige was, largely based on the false image that the media portrayed of him.   I was pleasantly surprised at what a thoughtful and egoless man he actually was.  Maybe that's because of some of the life-changing events he's lives through?   Regardless of why he came across as a very genuine, principled, caring man.  The club is poorer for not having him around.

My anger has faded somewhat, but really saddened that he didn't get to build on all the good things he's done for the club.

The only positive is that he can focus on getting his health sorted. 

28 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

And, fwiw, if you don’t like permeating discontent you’re probably supporting the wrong club!

Thanks for the reply.  I've seen and heard plenty in my time.  This seems to be at another level to me.  

I really do respect your opinion. I tend to agree with much of what you post. I don't necessarily disagree with much of what you have been posting in terms of observations of the football under LM, but I guess I am more sympathetic to someone seeking to change things and accepting that in the short term things can get worse.   It's clear he needed to change things because he believes in a different way to do things.  He couldn't just come in and say we'll do the same thing, but I'm just gonna ask the players to do it better. 

10 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

I think you’re missing the point.

The circumstances of Mannings appointment were farcical no doubt and I don’t think anyone believed what the board said. By the same token, I don’t think anyone believes Pearson is coming back. It’s not about top six, it’s about whether on evidence to date we’re progressing or regressing - I acknowledge six games is a small sample but if you’re going to criticise people for observing things that aren’t right, then we’d just as well close the forum down. 

I am expressing an opinion in response to yours, not denying you your opinion.   

The football isn't great.  Change is painful.  Sometimes you go backwards to go forwards.  Is LM the answer?  I have no idea, but he needs time.  

Your original post started with an apology to @Harry for playing on the words of his original thread.  I think his thread offered something new to what's been said in numerous other threads.  Whereas this one is just expressing the same discontent that permeates every other thread on here right now.  

You haven't addressed the point I made above.  If 6 games is enough time to judge LM.  How long do we give the next bloke? 

I think LM can be criticised, but the level of of criticism is quite unprecedented for someone in post for such a short period.  I'm not accusing you, but as @Harry post laid out I still think alot of that is down to anger with the decision to sack Pearson.

If Pearson had been sacked in response to calls from the fans for his sacking, would LM really be held up to the scrutiny and criticism as is being now?  I don't think he would. 

10 hours ago, Harry said:

100%. 
I thought tonight’s performance was one that you could easily say was a ‘Nige’ performance. 

Thats not a criticism of either Nige nor Liam. It’s more a case of the players reverting to what they were more familiar with. We definitely didn’t look to play too much from the back tonight and were much more direct. 
We did have a couple of good spells where we held good possession inside the opposition half and final 3rd, but there wasn’t a great deal of the much maligned “knocking about between the Cb’s” tonight. 

So yes, if you’d been on the moon the last 6 weeks and this was your first game back, you’d be forgiven for thinking Nige was still in charge. 
The only giveaway to that was that Mehmeti played

I think LM has talked before about not being going more direct to beat a press.  It shouldn't be a surprise that the team are effective playing to a style they are familiar with.   It may be the way Nige set the team up, but as far as I am aware he hasn't invented it.  Indeed the 433 that we ended up playing seemed to be arrived at almost by accident in most peoples' eyes when most fans seemed to want Pearson gone. 

Like @Harry some would probably see me as some kind of LM zealot.  I'm not, but I am not expecting top six and Pep Guardiola levels of coaching, performance and results after 5 weeks.  

It's a sad situation where fans seem to want LM fail just so they can punish the owners.