Alessandro

Phrased as investment “up to” - so presume that’s staggered over a period or even subject to clauses, promotion etc?

Either way, even if they don’t go up this season, that’s Ipswich propelled to a higher level of spending that we could never match. 

And another championship club getting serious investment - despite us advertising for it, doesn’t seem anyone is interested? Bit depressing. 

45 minutes ago, WeAreThePigs said:

The forum is not a true representation of wider fan base.

This is a favourite comment when someone find themselves in the minority of opinion and as the proverbial kite in a hurricane on here.

I would suggest the mood here is a pretty good representation of the wider fan base and is seen on social media too - this is also reflected in the general poor atmosphere and unrest at times at Ashton Gate at the moment, coupled with the increasing number of empty seats clearly visible recently.

1 hour ago, Roe said:

As I said, I'm not sure it can really be proven from the outside. Which is convenient seeing as he's apparently great at it.

There's no doubt that the academy has certainly improved in terms of first team contribution and player sales. How much of that is down to Tinnion is hard for any of us to really know I think.

I guess if you wanted proof, you'd need to speak to the players that have been brought through recently and the staff that have worked under him. I don't personally care to investigate that any further, but somebody probably should given its apparently earned him the role he's got now..

I was talking about this on another thread today - it’s considered to be ‘fact’ Tinnion is THE academy man. He seems to get the majority of plaudits for our youth set up, but the question is…is that fair??

The fact is - he’s wasn’t head of the academy until 2021 - when the last crop of academy boys had made their first team debuts - Scott, Conway and Bell etc.

The plaudits there should be going to Gary Probert, academy manager for 9 years - who left to go to….Ipswich….

Semenyo, Scott, Conway, Bell, Vyner, Max, Pring, Kelly, Bryan, Bobby… all pre- Tinnion as manager of the academy.

We also know the pathway has been a success in recent years, but that was ironically largely due to FFP blunder transfer restrictions and NP having to blood so many.

Before 2021 he was part of the scouting team and he was the loan manager (remember NP’s comment on that) - but credit to him for his part in finding some of these players.

We are yet to see what ‘his’ crop of 2021 onwards boys can do at first level, the supply has seemingly slowed. Perhaps in part because they are chasing FA youth cup glory? Now we have more room with the cash, you could argue the Jan signings he made have played a part in blocking the pathway.

Interestingly in my research for all this - you get the sense for some years the club have been grooming Tinnion for this role. 

In all the articles about the success of the academy or signings of youngsters like Scott etc - there is Tinnion “loan manager” in the picture with the player and sometimes Probert.

And it’s often Tinnion who is the one doing to media on the academy, despite him being “loan manager” or “pathway manager” - not Probert as head of the academy in the limelight, but Tinnion put forward.

Hence why I think the perception is what it is and why I think he may be getting more credit than he’s due…

Sorry if people think I’m being harsh on Tinnion - if anyone with a better knowledge of the academy can refute my analysis - I’m happy to stand corrected.

2 hours ago, Yozzarian said:

Also we are judging comms ability here, nothing else.

That post was in response to another that brought up the academy.

And with respect, this is a public forum -all relevant discussion is allowed - there are no rules that say other things can’t be discussed in a thread - just ask the pun producers. 
 

If you don’t want to discuss one part of thread, just skim over it. 

2 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

Listening to player and other interviews interviews over the years, many people have mentioned Brian Tinnion and his influence in a very positive way.  Of course there are lots of influences in building a player but I believe that Brian Tinnion is pivotal in terms of Bristol City.  The fact that he is not always great at expressing himself is not particularly relevant in my opinion. He can clearly make himself understood in football circles.  The fact that is is exposed in terms of his public speaking skills is a reflection of the directors, who clearly value his input but do not look after him as they perhaps should.

Can you reference any of those interviews, any links? Just I've never seen them...

"pivotal" - debatable. 

I've not mentioned his ability to express himself, so that's irrelevant to this discussion.

He was one of a group that scouted players for the academy - in that role i'm happy for him to continue.

Ironically, one could argue we're yet to see the product of his time as academy manager on the pitch - as the number of first team debuts have dried up - time will tell on that one too. 

17 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

It is a game of opinions, and I think he is doing a good job and has done a good job in the past - both as a player and running the academy.  I think it also likely that the lean and mean management structure is an artefact of the bean counters who run the club. Brian has become the scapegoat. Unfairly in my humble opinion.

Yep all good to have opinions - but facts also help.

The fact is our current crop of first team academy players (including recently departed Scott and Semenyo) were under the stewardship of Gary Probert as academy manager.

Talking of Alex Scott (as you mentioned premier league players earlier), he wasn't discovered or coached by BT - Scott was already in the first team when BT became academy manager in October 21. Same goes for Conway (1st team debut mid 21) and Bell (early 22) in reality.

Yes BT has played a big role in scouting and bringing in youth players, Semenyo for example, and we give him credit for that and he can continue in that role no problem. 

But that's only the very start of the process - back to Scott again - my opinion this time - i'd give far more credit to the lad himself, his family, the city youth coaches, the England youth coaches, NP and his coaches, and Phil Alexander or even SL for the sale - than I would BT in any of the process. 

That's not me saying he doesn't get any credit, but keep it in perspective. 

20 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

Of course I know that. But many realise that Brian Tinnion is a very important part of that process and are prepared to give him a degree of credit for his input.

Yes well done Brian, you are one cog in a big machine.

I think the vast majority have given and do give him credit for his part in that process - but I also think some want to give him more credit than he might actually be due, in that process.

And I also think the vast majority of fans also believe that, regardless, all of that doesn't add up to justify the promotion into the position he is now in at the club.

2 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

You sound perfect for the job!!  How many young players have you recruited, nursed through the academy into the first team and then on to the Premier League?

You do realise that when a player comes through our academy and is sold on, that is down to numerous individuals within the club, not just being 'nursed' by Brian Tinnion, right?

So £60m for WBA - Have a made up the figure of £200m SL wants for City? Was that reported or is it rumours??

1 hour ago, nebristolred said:

I've been trying to avoid this thread a little while to avoid the hysteria, but nothing has really calmed down. Again like before, it's not really anger on my side, more apathy. Apathy knowing that we will likely tread water in the middle of the Championship for another 10 years, barring the odd flirt with relegation, unless something changes. And let's face it, that position for a club of our size isn't that bad, but it is frustrating when it's seemingly some shoddy mismanagement holding us back.

Based on what others have said, it seems we have a very... distinct shall we say, corporate and management setup. I've said it before and I'll say it again, shell out some money on getting 3 experts into the correct roles, and actually listen to them and actually empower them, and I guarantee the owners will get a much better return on their investment.

A manager who knows what he's doing (at one point we had one of those!), a proper COO or CEO who can run the club appropriately (we also had one of those!), and then another head of the academy and/or player recruitment - not just jobs for mates or pretending roles no longer exist. And to be completely fair and transparent here, I think Tins has proven that he would be a solid shout for that third academy/recruitment job. But only that third job.

I didn't listen admittedly but I've got the vibe from this thread. Just pure apathy now, waiting until something changes, whatever that may be.

I was saying this 3 or 4 years in the Ashton days!

Look at the setup of a club like Brentford, Brighton, Bournemouth, Villa etc. They have structures like this before you get to the head coach etc:

• CEO 
• Director of Football
• Technical director or COO
• Head of Academy
• Head of recruitment 
• Financial director
• Commercial director

Obviously each club differs and some roles overlap - but we basically have 2 or 3 people doing the roles of sometimes 5,6,7 people at other clubs.

Step one move Tinnion sideways to Head of Academy and Pathway.

Then employ, as a minimum, a Head of Football and a new head of recruitment. Both with relevant premier league or champ experience, not some project person.

Set your budget - then JL and SL step back big time, stay out the dressing room. Stay out the weekly meetings.

I said a couple of months back it's always felt like when the club talk about the academy and pathway:

The emphasis is on producing players to sell to the premier league... 

and therefore to take all the plaudits and say ooh look we sold X for ££££££££ aren't we good - rather than

Producing players to build a squad to get Bristol City to the premier league...

This stuff about coming out about the FA youth cup kind of proves that doesn't it. 

His very few 'supporters' can say it wasn't that bad (damning with faint praise) and that whatever he said we'd pick up on:

Yes, no shit sherlock - If you're the technical director of a championship football club, at least be over the basic details and get them right -

He's given us 2 or 3 statements that are either bare-faced lies or incompetently incorrect - neither answer is good.

And then he's topped it off with some gem's like - I've been here 30 years I deserve this position, Manning is learning on the job, we want to be 10 points better off next year and disclosing disclosed transfer fees.

All whilst insulting the fan base as if we'd all just get behind them all will be fine.

An awful appearance from SL's worst (both times, can't make it up ) appointment.

35 minutes ago, Natchfever said:

If Lansdown is really looking to flog BS, apart from assets such as the stadium and HPC, key elements of the value  must be players and projected revenue based upon SC sales and matchday revenue. I think Conway and Prings values have gone south and if Sundays attendance becomes the norm then that may have a marked effect on Stevies nest egg.

Even with an ego such as his, he would surely step in and clear the decks?

 

 

This is why it’s hard to guess this time - comparisons with LJ not the same, as he was fully invested emotionally and financially - perhaps that was his last throw of the dice.

If he is looking to sell - value is everything and it seems he’s also looking for minimum investment from himself…AKA “Sustainability” 

He said what football earns, football spends - but we’ve not seen much of that Semenyo/Scott money yet - and there will be more in the summer - will we invest it? If the taps are limited this summer, fans will get restless.

So he absolutely needs to have a head coach/manager getting the team playing better than the sum of its parts - at the moment Manning is no where near doing that.

1 minute ago, 1960maaan said:

 

He is though.
If we stay clear of real trouble we are in prime LJ territory.  He will be given enough time to fail, maybe not given the vast amounts of money Johnson was , but they will give him time as they want him to be the young progressive Coach they plucked from (almost) nowhere. 
Johnson was given more time and money than any other Manager would have been because he was Steve's pet project . Manning is the same , but without Father feeling. He is going to be given plenty of chances, I'm surprised Steve hasn't done the "he's here until I say he's not " speech.  

You may well be right…but 

I’m not so sure that’s the case with Manning - have a feeling he’s BT and JL’s pick so wouldn’t be surprised to see Steve step in on this time.

Either way him going next week or later this year (if he doesn’t markedly and quickly improve) - there will be no ‘good’ way out on this one for the Lansdown’s  - and they’ll know the reality is the longer he stays, the longer and more expensive it will be to put it right…which may dictate things more this time round and they may save more face by acting quicker on it. 

Sorry if it’s been said elsewhere…if it was on the players and Pat the other night when we conceded from a free kick…

Presume it’s credit to Pat that we won today? Given it was his short corner routine that was calmly executed by the players?

Thank you for the 3 points Pat Mountain! 
 

30 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

There is something (and potentially nothing) that was notable in Liams pre match presser. The number of times he said “Brian”.

Those of us who have worked in office environments know in meetings that staff under pressure tend to reference their superiors a lot. It’s a way of tying their fortunes to their bosses, and trying to spread the blame/ make it more difficult to them to be dismissed.

I’m not saying he will be sacked. But the “tells” in interviews mean I wouldn’t rule it out, irrespective of today’s result. Steve L also being in attendance at a half empty AG won’t also have helped his case.

The bottom line is that if Tinnion sacks him this season he can retain some credibility (wye aye, we saw it wasn’t working and wanted to act quickly) but a sacking in October finishes him as well.

I think for all those reasons it may be closer than you think and beatings by both WBA and Leicester may well lead to the trigger being pulled.

Agree entirely - surprised how many people presume he’s now safe after that 1 win.

For me there is still debt to his name, one win has paid some of his overdraft, but he’s far from the black.

Didn’t see much of the game today, but have read it wasn’t great and I saw the empty seats you talk of..money talks…

2 loses in the next two with similar showings up to now and as you say he’ll be in big danger of going.

12 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

As ever, and has been said, context is important. The key passage starts from 11:45 apx where Liam says “The players..they get the support, they get the work they get the detail and the shift I’ve  seen is the players taking accountability. We try to give them everything on setups on corners and goalkicks but the second the game starts it’s very hard for me to effect things in game 

And genuinely, it isn’t - again, that’s literally his job.

 

Absolutely - you can talk about interpretation of what he said, as @ExiledAjax is on the other side of the coin.

But for me, it's vague - if you have a specific point, make it. It felt to me it was a half-hearted attempt to explain (absolve blame) conceding from a freekick vs Ipswich.

But that phrase he used is really not good. Even if those defending manning are right, I still disagree with what he said: set up, freekicks etc, the manager can affect things - yes the players need to know roles and adapt to changes in game but:

Take the freekick example - the players will be focussed on one thing in the heat of the moment and jostling - "winning their duel".

The manager has the responsibility to see the bigger the picture - perhaps a player's set up to make a late far post run, for example, that is unexpected. Even if it's time sensitive or hard to get message to players - that's your job!

You can't expect the players to take all the responsibility to see "the whole picture" when they've also got to mark a player who is pushing and shoving you to get into position. That's what they should be focussing on.

EDIT - I don't mind his interview manner, I actually quite like him, I imagine he's thoughtful and supportive of the players off the field. Yes I was a fan of Nige and he had the opposite style in many ways. But for me - if the message is good and the quality is there, I don't mind how it's delivered. My question is not Manning as a personality, it's Manning as a coach.

The words don't match the reality for me.

He keeps talking about us going in the right direction? 

The only thing I can think he is referring to is this ethos that he repeats time and again that clearly runs through his whole coaching philosophy - that is to equip the players with the skills to do it on the pitch themselves and take responsibility.

Hence a lot of talk of players; didn't implement the plan, let emotions get in their way and when they cross the white line he (Manning) can't affect things. One on one player meetings. Giving them the tools. etc etc etc

So perhaps when he talks about making progress, I can only presume he means in terms of the players accepting this way of working and reproducing it on the pitch?

I don't mind some elements of this man management to an extent - but my god, sorry, the best coaches in the world facilitate their players in ways beyond just preparation and set up. That's a crazy comment about in game influence.

Manning is putting a hell of a lot faith in his processes and the players ability and willingness to make it a success. 

He's basically all in on it with little flexibility or ideas beyond the players "producing" his imaginary, ideal plan - if they can't, what does he have in his locker next? Very little it seems so far. Must win on Sunday or concerning times...

The way I describe last night was like a boxing match.

We were a weight division below, but came out positive and swinging - landing some good blows. Ahead on points.

But instead of being ready for the inevitable comeback from our superior opponent and looking to box clever - we kept looking for the knock out blow, left ourselves wide open, and got knocked out.

So you can say, oh well done, we’ve had a go and showed some spirit and looked good at times, but we still got knocked out. It was naive. Against lesser opponents it might work, but ultimately again we seem unable to play the right game for the right opponent.

Interestingly though - I’ve got a question - if I and plenty others can see that, did Manning:

A) Not see that and froze in the headlights again, failing to adapt to the game situation again. 

or

B) See it and think, no we stay the course, regardless of result?

I suppose what I’m asking is, did anyone else have the feeling Manning is now playing ‘his way’ almost like he’s been told he has a free pass - “just go out and play your game” from above or is he being stubborn to show, “this is how I play, take it or leave it and back me in the summer if you want us to close that gap”?

Because surely he can see what us layman can, right?

We’ve done well in large parts of that game. Our 2 goals, from very direct play.

But I’m sorry - you cannot say Manning is without fault tonight.

Yes it’s 3 bits of poor defending - but:

I thought we were just too naive tonight.

It could have been 4 or 5 in the end. You don’t concede that many goals (in such a short period) if the set up and instructions are good.

We were under the cosh, Ipswich coming at us and he doesn’t make one change to try and help the defenders out in response to their multiple attacking subs - they just sit and watch us concede 3 goals and a penalty with no response from the bench.

Maybe Roberts to double up Burns who tore Pring apart to start with.

The players looked lost defensively and crumbled there at the end - and when so many do in one go, you have to question the manager too.

Shame because we really could have won that tonight and we wouldn’t be having this chat.

9 minutes ago, archie andrews said:

Whats better from mehmeti? I cant see it.... 

Low bar I admit, but he’s done his job off the ball, on the whole, yes one stray ball I can think of, but 3 or 4 others at least guilty of that.

Supported his LB more. Carried the ball and pressed better IMO.

Well in terms of being away to the team in 2nd - a very good first half.

Matched them, pressed well, been brave in possession, Manning gone to 4 at the back, good energy levels. 

Defensively strong, Vyner and Dickie great.

Much, much improved.

Less good - still looking rather toothless up top, very little to shout about, better from Mehmeti, not sure about Knight up front (other than what he does off the ball)

We’ve got to be careful, looked master of our own downfall with careless possession that has almost cost us a few times. Feel if we keep doing so, they will punish us.

And finally will McKenna have an answer to us tactically, surely Ipswich will have a tweak at half time and improve? Can Manning do the same?? 

Or can we do to Ipswich what others have been doing to us and nick a goal for an unlikely win?!

COYR

51 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I get what you're saying and largely agree but I also think, had Manning brought in some Klug-style support at the start it might have helped.

At the moment we have:

1) A (possibly) promising manager who has previously managed for a limited period of time in League One and who is at this level for the first time.

2) An assistant with the same amount of experience as he has and who has only previous been assistant to Liam before so doesn't have experience of a range of inputs and approaches.

3) A Technical Director who is a club stalwart who has worked their way through the ranks behind the scenes which has the upside of knowing the club inside out but the downside of not being able to draw upon experiences from other clubs and approaches. 

4) A Chair who has been at the club from a young age through his father and, whilst having been Chair for a long time, doesn't have a wide range of workplace experiences.

I don't actually think any of 1, 2 or 3 in isolation are necessarily a bad thing. It's good to give people opportunities and sometimes you are better off taking a gamble on someone who is unproven rathe than someone who has reached their ceiling and is jaded as a result.

But 1, 2, 3 and 4 combined leaves us with a massive deficit in experience and - as we saw a few years back with Dean Holden - it tends to be when things are going against you that the lack of experience shows as there isn't the knowledge and experience to draw upon different solutions from different places to find something that works. 

If the club want Tinnion to succeed as Technical Director then brilliant but, to do that, you need some experience on the board and a relatively experienced manager to address the experience gaps. If the club want Manning to succeed, great, but you need either an experienced DoF/Technical Director OR an experienced assistant. 

Like I said in my previous post, I don't think there is any way that the club right now could push for a change in the managerial structure without implicitly admitting a lack of faith in the manager. But I do think Jon Lansdown and Brian Tinnion have failed themselves as much as they've failed Manning and Hogg by allowing a system to be implemented where the entire command chain from Chairman to Assistant Manager at the club has massive gaps in its range of experience and no consideration has been given to addressing the obvious gaps.

 

Excellent post and the fact that this similar thing keeps happening over and again at the club - suggests something about the Lansdown’s.

I read a quote recently from SL, can’t remember exactly what it was, but something like:

”we’ve created a direct line of communication from owner to manager” 

or something on those lines - and that’s the rub for me:

He can’t have people of experience and talent in those roles of JL and BT because frankly no one good would put up with the meddling. 

Hence the pile up of bodies fired or people jumping ship - Burt, Cotterill, Ashton, Gould, Alexander, Pearson in not many years.

We may not hear from SL anymore, but his fingers are all over the current set up and situation IMO.

There’s the other view the Lansdowns want the glory and they want to own it themselves.

Hence why they’ll experiment with bringing in their ‘own men’ and running the show themselves, but then when they’re in a mess, go back to basics and get someone with experience in to fix it.

When we’re back on an even keel, they go back to the ego move of saying “we can do this ourselves again now”, but they can’t and we get in a mess again.

What next?

I agree it’s very unlikely we’ll go down, there’s a lot of teams between us and the bottom 3, despite what the points say.

But I do see us getting within 3 or 4 points of it and from there if we’re in a tail spin, we don’t know how the players and management will react under the pressure and that could see us getting dragged mighty close for comfort, maybe even in as soon as 3 or 4 games time as it’s a tough little block of 4 coming up.