Alessandro

7 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Yep. 

It's not the loss in isolation. Its that its the same old thing, failure to beat a poor team and instead losing. 

This season was meant to be the sesson we pushed on. Instead we are regressing. We finished last season 10 points off the play offs and we're now 10 points off in February. 

It seems like a wasted season. Wasted opportunity. 

We're just going to go round and round in circles rather than taking that step forward that most of us expected. 

Previously I was content to watch the crap served up knowing the situation we was in with ffp, the culture etc. There was always a light at the end of the tunnel. You could see what the club were doing. 

But now we have a decent squad. We have a very good culture, I don't care what anyone says, we should be doing better than what we are doing and thats why I now have no patience. I can't see any grand plan or any progress. We've dropped 5 points against QPR this season. That's incredibly poor. 

It’s interesting for me as I never really expected top 6 this season under NP - especially after selling Scott - unless the chequebook suddenly opened in Jan (which it didn’t) - so my eyes were always on next season - where I felt NP could start to really show the fruits of his foundations and be judged fairly on results.

Why am I frustrated/concerned/now a little negative about next season:

1) Apart from the club taking us for fools talking about top 6.

2) I have my concerns that appointing Manning just isn’t that continuity appointment from NP. Is that a problem? Well maybe..:

My question - is his style of football (desirable as it may be) realistic for us as a club, with our budget? Is his style of football too expensive for us? 

If so, can he adapt to find a way to “successfully” work with the resources he actually has?

Successful being a ‘top 6 challenge’, not us playing some nice football a couple of a times a month amongst many frustrating losses. Every mid table championship team can do that.

So it feels like we could be heading for another re-build and one we might not be able to afford - if it’s not working this time next year, what then? Another re-build again? And so on so on. The Lansdown Loop.

Ultimately if you like the guy you’ll be patient, if not you won’t. We all do it, we all have a personal hunches on managers. Feels to me like nice guy, good coach, Wrong time wrong club. How long will the majority of fans give Manning - Time will tell. 
 

As always I’ll sign off with hope I’m wrong.

I’m not ready to criticise Manning for blooding or not blooding youngsters yet - far too early to say. We will probably have to reflect on that in at least a years time. 

One thing that is a fact - the necessity for NP to bloody so many academy prospects has meant we’ve seen so many come through, yes - but…..

Where has it got us? If we’re going to achieve our goal of promotion, the academy has to be one cog in the machine, not what we rely on:

We’re still at a hit rate of about 1 a season max that could be sold for good money to the prem and about 1 to 2 players a season max looking like they could be a consistent part of a top 6 team.

So although we’re ‘producing’ players in the academy…it’s still a case of they’ve got to be good enough for a top championship challenge eventually. I don’t want us to simply become a nursery for young players who ‘get a game’ while we remain mid table at best in the champ only for the best of them to be sold and the worst released.

I think we’re still some years off the academy providing the first team with 3,4 or even 5 players with the potential of the likes of Pring, Conway and Scott etc over a shorter period of time than 3, 4 or 5 season time span. 

Watford away and Southampton home performances in the league looking more like anomalies and we’ve seen many more performances like that today.

Plan A was frankly awful and there was no plan B again and an inability to affect a game going against us, again.

That squad today - as good as it’s been for years, we have to be doing better than that, so poor and the players just looked like they gave up there.

A win % of 0.3 - This is why the jury is just still out for me on Manning.

And that’s not me saying Manning is shit full stop - but me saying I’m seeing little to show Manning has the tactical x-factor needed to take this club from a mid table budget group to play off contenders. 
 

As always, I hope I’m wrong.

Mate we’re a mid table team with a mid table budget.

There’s a reason everyone says “anyone can beat anyone” in the championship - we are like all the other mid table teams, capable of a big result but massively inconsistent. 

How do we beat these teams? Well there’s the million dollar question….the answer all too often is you get out what you put in…££££££

Well, well well. 

After a week of play off chat and didn’t the club play a stroke of genius appointing Manning…reality strikes.

An impotent, over worked and under cooked first half display.

Big half coming up - changes needed and time to show us your tactical nous Liam - this is a game we should 100% not be losing. 

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

No, it’s very different to quoting something in a current thread that’s getting posts and highlighting the bits you’re referring to.  Especially when threads can go off in different directions

You are taking someone’s post from the past and trying to throw it back in their face, because they might’ve posted something at the time that might no longer be the case now.  It might not have been right then, it’s an opinion.  But it could’ve been right at the time too, e.g. at that point, results and underlying numbers in certain areas showed we had regressed.  You fail to take the context, the balance, the counter-argument, the admission, that sometimes comes in the very next sentence.

I find it all a bit childish, but it’s not the first time you’ve done it to me or others.  I doubt it will be the last.

+++++

I will continue to evaluate, opine, like I always have.  But I won’t be worrying whether it might be different to something I’ve said in the past, things don’t stay at a constant.

I certainly won’t be posting in fear that Marina’s Rolls Royce will be sat there itching to bring up a post from the past with - “but you said this Dave”

+++++

Sorry to everyone else who’s had to read this spat.

 

 

 

 

 

 

@Davefevs - I think, whether people agree or disagree with your opinion, you’re one of the most level headed posters on here and always seem willing to accept if/when you’re wrong.

Ultimately you’re a keen fan, not an expert, nor do you pretend to be, despite your knowledge shown in your analysis work.

You don’t need me or anyone to ‘protect’ you on here but IMO you don’t have to prove anything to anyone. 
 

I do think @Marina's Rolls Royce’s going after you quite so early in the fashion they have…well, I hope they’re as able to eat humble pie as they’re willing to serve it out - these things usually come around to bite back.

EDIT - especially as I don’t think you’ve made many statements that could yet be classed undoubtedly as ‘wrong’. Long way to go….

35 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

Funny old game. You have every right to change your opinion .

Especially when you get it wrong, Dave.

In the apparent unlikely event that the Lansdown's and BT have actually made a good choice of new Manager then no doubt you will retract your statement that " I will not support the hierarchy" and several others which I'm happy to remind you of 

A broken clock is right twice a day…

As you seem so ready and keen to “remind” others if they’re wrong - what’s your opinion on Manning?

Good or bad appointment?

Expectations? 

You seem defensive of him and the Lansdown’s so presume you approve?

Promotion under Manning?

Why don’t you stick your neck on the line, put your money where your mouth is and give us some statements we can “remind” you of? 

Given you’re happy to be critical of others and clearly feeling bullish, 2 wins and suddenly everyone was wrong to criticise the club…hmmm 

1 minute ago, italian dave said:

I’m not even sure Pring gets straight back in after Roberts’ performance last night.

I don’t think we’ll see Atkinson this season?

But more to the point, it’s no longer about who starts being our 11 best players: it’s about how we best manage game time, fitness etc of our 17 best players, and about how we best use those 17 players to manage the game. 

Pring/Roberts great dilemma to have.

On the whole it’s great to see so many players lift their game with the competition for places we now have…

Atkinson - actually realise now I don’t know what the latest is since his set back after his (nearly) return from injury?

10 hours ago, italian dave said:

I think what the past few weeks have demonstrated is that it’s no longer about our best 11, it’s about our best 17. 

Seeing that bench last night, you got a sense of that - looking stronger all the time.

And we were missing Pring and Twine who likely go straight in the team and the likes of Naismith and Atkinson hopefully not miles off adding even more depth - hopefully in time for the run in. 

Absolutely take a bow LM. Very positive signs now appearing - the thing for me is I think he is learning and adapting, which is absolutely key.

You got a sense he came into the club with his idea of how he wanted to play already and didn’t deviate from it. 

But recently performances show he has taken a step away from that and adjusted the approach. That’s two big wins in a row with 30%-40% odd possession…perhaps a realisation….

Building on some of the style and foundations already in place in the squad and giving us another gear - 4 at the back, pressing at the right time, counter attacking football, excellent organised defence.

Always felt to me under previous manager were weren’t miles off that kind of performance, 1 or 2 players off - if LM has been able to unlock it and can find consistency then we’re onto something IMO. 

Gutted to have missed tonight as i'm out the country - but what a win and a great week...dare to dream.

Keep it going COYR

18 minutes ago, RedRoss said:

Glad to have input from an actual Championship manager like you to clarify for me.

Oh sorry, I give my opinion about what championship managers do and I’m trying to be a championship manager and when you give your opinion about what championship managers do your…what…not?!
 

OK mate.

42 minutes ago, RedRoss said:

I think your just showing the over expectations of a modern day fan.

Does he really need to explain his tactics in full detail post match? Perhaps he'd prefer to keep that to himself. It might be in our interests not to share everything with our next potential opponents. Especially considering we have Southampton in a very quick turnaround i.e same context as Middlesbrough. We won't have much time to recover, we won't have the lions share of possession.

5 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Given the vast amounts of information available to clubs these days I doubt you can keep any secrets. Southampton will have analysed our games in detail and will be prepared for a variety of scenarios.

To suggest a championship manager is watching opposition managers interviews to understand their tactics, is...well...silly. 

All they have to do is watch the game, analyse the stats and learn all they need to. 

I can see the potential rationale behind the switch - but Manning didn't come out and exactly clarify in his post match either. "we found a way" was the interesting comment for me. 

But I've got to say, I can only think some people didn't see the game. Or the second half.

I notice the, pretty close, off-side goal doesn't get mentioned much. It's certainly not in the highlights from the club - Boro's highlights have more chances. Had that stood, we probably wouldn't have won that game, IMO.

Having really looked a threat on the break especially towards the end of the first half (even when Boro still dominated the possession) in that system, I don't understand why we couldn't have continued in that set up, with a more conservative, energy saving mind-set, committing less people forward for example. But with that switch at HT we lost any foothold in the game and Conway's 6 touches in 40 minutes showed how little ball he saw. 

The fact both Manning and James said it was a little scary at times suggests they didn't exactly feel in total control or confidence in what they were doing.

As I said in matchday thread, great 3 points, but going forwards, 4 or 3 at the back is one to watch. 

3 minutes ago, UncleRed said:

Unfortunately decisions can’t be made with hindsight.

What if they kept a back 4 and boro came out the gates flying and scored early on, having momentum for 40 minutes and LM has to change tactics on the fly from the dugout.

Instead, anticipating a good coach in Michael Carrick isn’t gonna let a repeat of the first half happen. And changes tactics at half time where he has around 15 minutes to get messages across and make sure the players get everything on board and rely on our best side of this team, Defending.

I can’t believe some people will find any little thing to try and moan about, especially when you look at the schedule the players had and what actually just happened. WINNING away to boro fgs.

You know criticism can be constructive? Debating the good points and the bad points is part of the game, the analysis is normal, good and bad.

Why are people so sensitive about a few balanced, sensible observations?

Odd.

You can bet your bottom dollar the management and team won't be saying "3 points, job done, no point in discussing the game, we won" - they'll be debriefing and learning. 

11 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I note the same people that were deriding Manning for not being tactically flexible enough are now criticising him for changing formation. 

You've gotta laugh. 

The issue for me is not him making changes or not - it's making the right changes.

Today, it was the wrong one IMO and it nearly cost us again. 

Agenda, no agenda. Those changes are worth a debate.

Win's a win. A great 3 points to stop the rot in the league. All in all a good 'away' performance.

Slight fly in ointment - first half 60/40 possession in their favour, 2nd 70/30 (and effectively lost the half 1-0) Manning's changes couldn't get us into the half at all, frankly made us worse and worse (why go back 3?!) and we very much hung on for the points, but good hanging on, none the less. 

Well! It's a pretty nice first half - feels like the game isn't quite done yet though...

Ironically, it's football reminiscent of Nigel Pearson that has got us the two goal lead - credit to Manning for the set up, we looked like a swarm of angry wasps combined with awful hesitancy by the Boro defence saw us snatching the ball twice in quick succession for 2 excellent goals. Knight composed, James classy.

But from there, less good - Boro doing as you'd expect and sorting themselves out somewhat and then dominating possession for rest of half. They had a number of crosses, particularly down our left. - but on the whole we've been solid at the back, Max only needing to make one decent save. Credit for limiting their chances.

When we did play a bit of Manning ball out the back, we've broken their press fantastically at times - but get well into their half, turn back and lose possession - very frustrating. Our best chances came on the counter or looking for another high steal.

Quick mentions: - Tanner - deserves that RB spot for me right now.

Cornick - best half I've seen from him - dominant in the air, running the channels well, good on the ball...set up Bell for a fantastic chance which he should have buried and ended the game.

Next goal crucial. 

23 minutes ago, mozo said:

Well in all comps that's one poor performance in the last 6 games, so don't get yourself too distraught about it. 

Yeah we would like more points, but that's football.

Not distraught, but thanks for your concern! 

Nicely selected sample size - another sample for you: 

3 wins in 10 games in the league.

0 wins in 6 games in the league.

Stand by what I say, a few draws against weakened premier league teams can’t mask the, totally valid, opinion that feels we’re under achieving in the league…IM calm O
 

There’s short memories but it was only a few days ago the same players got battered by Leeds. Where was that endeavour then? 

They didn’t look so tired last night….

Fine, well done, we knocked one weakened premier league team out a cup this season. Nothing new compared to previous seasons.

Franky I want to see those same performances, much more consistently in the championship please.

1 hour ago, petehinton said:

The max bird comments I found interesting too, sounded almost as if we wanted him & Knight to come in together in the summer. So the interest far precedes Manning coming in. 
 

As @Harry has mentioned/alluded to before, will these club targets really fit into the style Manning wants, if they were initially identified & keen to join, for a style very different to what we’re trying to do now?

I can’t imagine TGH being someone Manning would’ve been crying out for, if he was given a ‘clean slate’ of players to bring in, he was just already here and doing well. Would be interested to know how much LM would’ve been banging the door down for Bird too, if he was already high up on a list of players to bring in to the club, and we knew he was keen to come as well, before he was even head coach.
 

Is also why I really can’t see Williams being offered a new deal despite an excellent December. 

Is this concerning? Where is the joined up thinking? 

I was slightly surprised when TGH was made permanent - just felt not a Manning favourite and he was the one to immediately give way for Twine in the starting 11.

Looking more and more like the Twine deal was right to be questioned, in terms of squad development - perhaps one to keep Manning happy and the others he has 'gone along with'?

So looks like Tinnion is very much in the box seat for picking the talent for the managers going forward. 

Perhaps being harsh/overthinking, but it just doesn't all feel quite right, quite aligned. 

Just now, Red-Robbo said:

 

To be fair, all clubs do that. Even successful ones. 

Yep - but at least the successful ones have something to show for it!  

If the fee is right and we've stolen a march on our competition here, i'm happy with that deal.