W-S-M Seagull

I very much doubt if these people even regularly follow a club team. Didn't one of them say they are a Man Utd fan? One of them spoke about jibbing and that very much gave the impression this wasn't his first jib. I remember I went through the turnstile and went to scan my ticket and then I immediately had a stranger push tightly into the back of me and basically went through the gate with me. I was absolutely furious with them because had it of been well managed I could well have been kicked out through no fault of my own. Didn't the guy mention in the doc that this happened to a ticket holder? These people clearly knew what they were doing. These people risked genuine ticket holders lives in order to have a good time. It should have been one of the best occasions of my life. Instead I felt relieved to have not died. That's not being dramatic either. Thousands and thousands of glass bottles were being thrown in the air for fun and fireworks let off. It is an actual miracle that no one died. I've not returned to Wembley since because in some ways I'm still traumatised by it. Watching the documentary was an extremely difficult watch. I knew I was in danger on the day, I felt in danger, I felt as if my life was at risk but its only since the event and particularly watching this documentary do I now realise how much danger I was actually in. I took beers with me etc but as soon as I arrived at Wembley (around 1pm) I took the decision that it would not be wise for me to have a few beers as I needed to protect myself. I missed out on all the pushing etc as I wisely took the decision to stay by the steps and enter as soon as I was allowed. However once I passed the steps and got round to my entry point the stadium was locked down so had to wait ages to be able to enter the stadium. No one should ever go to a football game and fear that they may not return home to their families. Even to this day I don't ever recall seeing an apology from the fa or Uefa which just about sums the whole day up.

Mock it all you want but it doesn't change the fact that he couldn't motivate the players against those teams. Remember our performance in the derby against Cardiff?

That's the problem isn't it? Teams with lesser quality wanted to win those games more than we did.

Unfortunately I think most of the problems was fueled by a combination of alcohol and drugs.

You're all over the place mate. One minute you went on a bizarre rant saying play offs were not in our own hands as every other club could win all their remaining games. Now in this thread you've repeatedly said 70 odd points would secure play offs most seasons and you've used that to frame this season as a success. However that's a complete contradiction to what you said post Southampton where you trolled and mocked me for me saying "it's in our own hands" when I was simply saying it was in our own hands to achieve the points total which you now say in this thread would get play offs in most seasons. Make your mind up mate. You're constantly changing the parameters to suit your own narrative.

I think what really bothers me is how so many people felt entitled to be there and entitled to enter the ground for free whilst putting the safety of ticket holders in huge jeopardy. The two guys on the show, even after all this time, even after the event knowing all the facts, still came across as extremely proud of their actions that day. They don't care that they put peoples lives at risk. They just cared about their own selfish need to be there despite having no right to be there. Their actions that day ruined what should have been an amazing day for those who had tickets. No one should go to a football game and fear for their lives. These 'people' had the opportunity to buy tickets but didn't. Suck it up. It is an absolute miracle that no one was killed that day.

Just think, had we of won the winnable games after Southampton - QPR, Sheffield Wed, Cardiff, Huddersfield and Stoke then we'd be +14 and secured ourselves a play off spot with 76 points and finishing 5th. It was in our own hands after all. To have dropped all those points against those teams is a huge failure.

Something about this has always bothered me. To us it was always very clear that to begin with he'd be back up to Pring. So why was he under the impression that he should have been starting? Surely, whoever does the negotiations (Marshall didn't clarify on this) would have spoken to Roberts and said he'd be back up and Roberts seemingly was ok with this. Unless of course he was told differently in order to get him to sign...

@Davefevs may be able to assist me here again but on top of the two loads of wages, we've also had greater player availability?

Rob Edwards at Luton didn't need time for example.

These are not facts! I'm not sure many of us would have selected Mehmeti either. He was in the process of receiving the Atkinson treatment. So you'd have dropped Pring for Roberts? Mehmeti was never on his way to Oxford. Naismith was in and out last season too, Kalas was injured all season. Atkinson whilst a very decent player, wasn't at the level Dickie is and JD was well, JD.

I'm not sure this is true, I'll defer to @Davefevs on the passing. I'm not impressed with the passing between the back 4. We've conceded 5 less goals than last season. Improvement yes but you have to consider it in context. Last season we didn't have Dickie and for large parts we had a make shift defence. So the question I have is do we look more solid because we've been coached better like you are presumably implying, or do we look more solid because we have purchased a solid player and have had far greater availability in defence? Can you say with absolute certainty that those players wouldn't have improved under Pearson or any other manager? Williams for example, Pearson and his medical team worked extremely hard to get him to a fitness level where he can be a consistent Championship player. Comparing Williams from last season to this season would be unfair because of those fitness issues. Similar for Roberts and Mehmeti. Can you say with absolute certainty that they'd not have improved under Pearson or another manager? Has Manning got the best out of them or have they just followed the expected trend in their development? Let's also not act like these players are world beaters, because they are not. We are in danger here of thinking everything is rosey because we went on a good run. How did the perform during the bad runs? OK thats good that Conway is looking more threatening, what about earlier on in Mannings time here? Again this is a question for Dave but from what I've seen in my own eyes it doesn't appear that xG has improved. I don't think our pressing is anywhere near as good as it was previously and for a large part Manning moved away from pressing so I'm unsure why you have come to that conclusion. Whilst the Southampton and Leicester games were great results let's not forget that we could have played Leeds all night and still not scored for example.

After our fans were incredibly patient during 'the reset' the feeling I got from the fanbase was that the general consenus was to progress this season. What I'm not sure of is why certain people wanted that progression under Pearson but that their expectations suddenly shifted under Manning.

Where have we improved? What are your thoughts on the 2 nil loss away to Preston? What is different about the football now which makes you enjoy it more?

Yep. Because I was clear all the way back in pre season (with NP still as manager) that I expected us to reduce the 10 point gap to the play offs. I've been steadfast in that expectation. Others have changed theirs to suit their narrative. If you finish within 5 points of the play offs then you're in that conversation. We move from being a team that's bobbing along in mid table to a team that has something to play for. We all would be, however football doesn't work like that. If you stand still, you'll go backwards. At this moment in time I consider us to further regress next season rather than to aquire 3+ points. I could flip this and say if you finish 10 points from the play offs and then 11 points the following season then eventually you'll end up being relegated. But football doesn't work like that.

A lot of our fans have fallen into that trap of thinking we've improved this season. I don't get it. Surely the aim every season is to win the league? Win every game etc? And then when that's not likely you then adjust your targets. I don't like this whole attitude of being happy of finishing mid table once again. It's not high performance. It's setting a culture that some sort of failure is OK. The organisation did set targets. They were missed. Now they and their apologists are trying to frame this season as a positive to try and save face.

This is where your whole trying to put a positive spin on it falls apart. We may have finished higher position wise, but we finished 1 point further away from the target than we did last season. That's not progression. That's regression and when you factor in most of us thought this was the season to kick on then it can only be viewed as a failure. I think the vital bit you are missing is that most of us (don't try and twist this again) expected us to progress from being a mid table table. To make this clear to you, that's not me saying most expected us to progress into play off challangers, but it's saying most of us expected us to move into that space between being mid table and play off challangers and not even you could argue that we've done that.

He'd be more suited to the technical director role than Tinnion is.

Considering we had no other options, who would you have played?

How can using a moving target be flawed when the target is a constant moving target every single season? Why you're trying to put a positive spin on this, who knows. As I said in my post, 62 points would have got us 14th last season. I don't claim to speak for most/all of us and have never ever said "I speak for all of us" you're losing credibility now. I said "most us expected progression this season" that's a fact. Don't spin it any other way. Its not a good look. Maybe next season 68 points will be enough for play offs, or it could be 80. There is absolutely no guarantees we will improve by 4 points a season which is what you are banking on to make your logic work. The target is not static like you're trying to make out. The league placings to achieve the play offs is static but the points total to achieve those placings are simply not. The reality is we need to aim for between 70-80 points to get a play off spot and that's quite a big leap.

Now you know how I feel every time I attend AG.

You are aware that the McLaren he drove to victory isn't the best car right?

That's not really true is it? Plenty of managers go in to clubs and can deliver results and success without a pre season and their own players

I can't quite put my finger on it as to why attendances are up accross the board. Its interesting. As for away attendences. I always find it pointless to compare ours to other clubs. Swansea have to travel over an hour just to get out of Wales for example. Would Birmingham, Coventry and West Brom get the away attendences they do if they were located in Swansea for example? Instead of being quite central? I did once see a away attendence table that factored in all the miles fans have to travel and I believe we were quite high up on that.

I think the logic of league placings is wrong. It's flawed. You could finish 7th but still be 10 points off the play offs. Would finishing 7th but 10 points off the play offs be an improvement? No because you've not been in the conversation of getting a play off spot. An improvement for me is getting to within 4/5/6 points of the play offs because then you're in that conversation. You've gone from being a team that's not competing to being a team that's competing. I can't see how anyone would think finishing further away from the play offs and competing than last season is an improvement. Because it's simply not. It's another season where we've not been in the conversation. In a season where many of us expected us to get closer to being in that conversation. Next season 62 points could get you 15th place. Would you then consider that a regression? Last season 62 points would have got us.......14th position. I'd have considered that an improvement because we would have been 7 points from the play offs. In 21/22 62 points would have got us 14th position. Each season you have to play 46 games. Anything from 68 points to 80 points can be the target to get 6th place. It changes every year. That's the problem with your logic. Your logic would only work if the points target was the same every season. If Coventry would have got 71 points this season would you have considered that an improvement from their 70 the previous season which secured them a play off place? Even tho 71 points this season wouldn't have been enough for the play offs this season? Football is a simple game and you're over complicating it. If the opposition get better, you need to improve more than they do. You can't stand still and expect success. You'll be happy for me to come back to this post in 12 months time if we get 63 points but finish 6 points off 11th?