Cidre Monita

Pretty sure I read in Bristol Live that Kieran Maguire the football financial specialist had commented that City had no FFP problems even without the Semenyo sale. I will try and find the article. Although I’m no forensic accountant my instinct at the time told me that a lot of what Gould had to say was spin as directed by his Lord and master. I did find it strange that Gould (a local lad) would up sticks after 18 months from a (seemingly) ambitious football club to take up a cricket position, albeit at international level. Covid aside the recent financial issues had much to do with Lansdown’s recruitment of LJ and MA. Lansdown failed to do due diligence on Ashton which if he did so would have known what a charlatan he was (courtesy the Watford Gazette). I find it quite galling that SL seems to constantly remind us how lucky we are to have him underwriting the debts which have to a large extent been due to his errors.

One man to blame for that.

Struggling to see anyone there! I see the Bears are holding the mighty Ealing Trailfinders 12-12 at HT. Another Lansdown success story…

Richard Gould only lasted 18 months in his most recent spell. It always looked to me like he was reading hostage statements to the media regarding our (alleged) financial situation. He obviously saw behind the curtain and didn’t like what was going on and his ambitions took him elsewhere. The Lansdown regime is really starting to concern me now.

Well, not sure that is true. After all, Nige, Tins, and the team got Sl out of a £50M plus black hole of relegation and then added on the creation of traded talent (signed from the academy). SL should be building a statue of these guys. They got him out of jail. Yet he seems to struggle to give any credit. Those who know, know. We have never had such a competent team at the top. Just keep SL/JL well away. The basis of a proper club with genuine Prem credentials is being built, but there are still areas that need revision. It is vital you do not build around yes people, but around people who care, and have the ability and know-how. Let the people who know what they are doing, do their job.

Read the article, pal. They had a couple of first teamers playing, that’s all. Any other comments on the shit show that is Bristol Sport under Lansdown? How do you foresee the upcoming season for the 3 teams mentioned?

Anyone notice that the Bears got battered 75-0 yesterday in a competitive cup game. They have released a lot of players recently and looks like they are now operating under similar financial restrictions as us. Pat Lam mentioned that it’s the smallest squad he’s ever had to operate with. There seems to be a common theme here - I wonder who the benefactor of the Bears is? Can’t quite recall his name?!! Don’t wish to sound negative but it already feels like our season is (barring a miracle) over given the small squad size and we will probably fluctuate between 10/18th place, or thereabouts. The Bears will be in a relegation battle which is amazing given where they were a couple of years back. The ladies I think will be totally outclassed and relegated with a couple of double-digit losses. If the aforementioned does happen let’s hope it puts more pressure on the Lansdowns to sell up.

https://web.archive.org/web/20230203170226/https://www.efl.com/clubs-and-competitions/sky-bet-championship/clubs/bristol-city/ Official EFl Capacity 26459 , which stacks up with the Man City sell-out and 800 seats not sold in the Atyeo. I think you will find the Lansdown is closer to 9000 , Atyeo 4400 , Dolman used to be 6700 , South stand around 6000 . Effective football capacity is 25700 .

I think the Lansdown tentacles spread a lot wider and deeper than we thought within the Bristol sporting media. From the interview comments it sounds quite clear that we are now in a managed decline with our 70 year old local billionaire owner having no intentions of ‘going for it’. This regime need to be made aware the fans will no longer accept them holding us back. This club and city are waiting to explode with some success and it’s so frustrating.

I reckon he’s been given the heave-ho.

Well done Sam, fantastic news!! Will be a proud day seeing him run out in an England shirt. Fingers firmly crossed!

One subtle difference with the aforementioned clubs, they actually want to get to the premier league, we don’t. I would add Bolton, Derby and Portsmouth to the list. How many more false dawns can us fans put up with? It would be interesting to see how many would get their season card money back now if they could (especially after the non-reinvestment of the Scott cash). It must be obvious to even the must optimistic of those amongst us that we will never make the PL under Lansdown.

Have to agree with you. Just read NP’s comments and he has been proper stabbed in the back. Contrary to popular opinion I don’t think SL has any intention of selling up. I think people need to realise how a billionaire’s brain works. SL will have zero sentiment about our squad being depleted and believe he’s just trying to claw back money he’s previously lost. It’s hard for us average Joes to get our heads around the unbridled greed these guys have and I’m glad SL’s now been exposed for what he is all about post-Scott sale. I think pound for pound even the Gas have shown more ambition than us. #Lansdownout

Excellent summary and accurate depiction of the situation.

Exactly this. It is blatantly unfair to ask Nige to explain to fans or the media the budget policy. He is right to say he cannot answer the question. It is not his job to, he does not set it. He has calmly said he is following the club guidelines given to him. This is for the CEO or Charman to explain the dramatic change in club policy. No issue with that change of policy, the club loses a lot of money, but they do need to explain it, not Nige. It is very disingenuous to put him in that position.

It is very hard to understand with only summary accounts available. The football club income streams are quite clear, and you can see the same at other clubs, the tv, solidarity payments etc. Where it is less clear, is how the stadium co arrives at that turnover. There are ticket sales, hospitality, bars, weddings, concerts etc etc. The food and beverage/hospitality numbers will have grown substantially after the stadium rebuild, that would run into millions, with football and rugby, a rough guesstimate would be £7/8M based on the number of games/people and other clubs' numbers. To get to £17m though, would require something else. There are recharges between related parties, that is for sure, that is seen in both accounts, but there is no indication on what basis they are made. Internal cross charges as such. The rugby club will pay a rental to the stadium company. That will form some of the income. Does the football club pay an element of ground use to the stadium company? Without knowledge of how they operate the stadium between the sporting clubs, it is hard to say (and may explain the disparity) . Only that there are some grey areas that make the overall turnover less than black and white. The holding does benefit as such from the rugby rental and usage (and beer drinking- though a % back to them would be due ?), few other clubs have that operational income. So there are some areas where we have a turnover advantage. The non parachute payment clubs, like Preston, Swansea, Brum etc have a turnover in the 17 to 20 M area. Turnover is all well and good, but if the cost of achieving it is disproportionally high (efficiency) then you are not making the progress you desire or expected.

Exactly.

It seems confusing what is real income and internal cross-charging that inflates turnover of a holding company but impacts very ittle the bottom line as the costs/income/cross charging are just moved around. It just makes the club look like it has a greater turnover but it still loses substantial money as a football club. The football club earns, and these are all slightly variable year to year the following, but from last accounts Premier League solidarity income £5 M Football League Pool £3.5 M Season Ticket sales £ 3 M approx Match day tickets £2.0 m Broadcasting revenue £0.5M (rounded up) Other commercial £ 1.0 M Other football-related income £1.0 m All in it is about £18M. Nowhere near one of the highest in the league, though certainly not the lowest. Then you have the wage bill, which City do not split between playing and non-playing like a few clubs do, which was up around £28M in 2021 and is somewhere now down to lower £20 M's. The playing wage bill is under £20M according to Sl on Radio B. But add the football club wage bill to that of the stadium company (another £6M), and ouch, it is huge, around £30M. Far higher than comparable clubs. Meaning that our cost base is far too high for the the combined businesses, and the actual money spent on the players who perform on the pitch , well it is far from the wage bill often quoted in the media. So it is easy to see where the financial holes are, and that is before you buy players, or now, sell them, to fill those £15M a year holes. The holding company has the stadium company, and that charges for services, as with all internal cross charges, you can decide where you want the money to appear, and rugby is barely adding much to that turnover number, the concerts will create some new income streams though. So to go from £18m of clearly defined income, to the £28M quoted, well that is not rugby or pop concerts, which may cover £3 maybe 4 M. The rest is fugazi. Is it not the case that If the stadium company sells a ticket, for example, it will count as turnover of the stadium company, they then take their fee for manging the event, and pass on the net "sale" to the football club. The football club then count that net payment as their turnover. So you inflate turnover of the combined group. Though the costs are still there, between the stadium and football club, so it has no impact on the combined bottom line, it just inflates the turnover of the holding company. You are selling to yourself. BCFC has the challenge to increase turnover, the use of the holding company to manage the stadium (Ashton Gate Ltd) obscures those numbers when looking externally (though you can argue makes the stadium operation easier to manage for dual use) but the pure football club is far from one of the highest turnover clubs in the league and the non playing cost base far too high. The club could also never fund through turnover the stadium development or the HPC. It simply does not generate that level of income. But it carries huge debt for them both. This is the harsh reality , and the disparity with the elite clubs today, where £400m income is seen more often very stark. A championship club makes no financial sense , and without the financial support of people like Sl, should really not exisit. Even after all of the wage bill reductions, we are as a business still paying out too much money, far too much. The EFL and FA really screwed up when the Prem league broke away. The horse bolted, and no one will ever repair or change that balance of income distribution that is getting worse and wider by the year. Add in the academy player farming, loan fees for clubs to pay to them to develop their players, the abuse of the loan market generally, the list goes on. Bottom line, Championship clubs make no financial sense and the league is broken with an absurd payment for falure for the relegated sides. So, Scott being sold and no attempt to replace or reinfoce at that time, is indeed ,questionable, but any Championship club needs to make £15m a year from player sales just to stand still. It cannot carry on like that. Though we seem to have gone cold turkey rather fast !

Finally the blinkers are coming off of people! We all know we can’t carry on like this 4fs. Thanks for everything Steve, but you can’t hold the club back any longer.

Did she put the kettle on at half-time?

So you are happy with that? The likes of Luton, Brentford et al in the Prem and that sleepy little retirement home Bournemouth signing our best young players. I was saying to my mate that I actually prefer the old days in the early 80’s when Terry Cooper was in charge and we didn’t have a pot to p*** in. Who would have thought back then we still wouldn’t have made the promised land some 40 years later even with the involvement of a local billionaire. The things history teaches us, eh?

Haha do you ‘smell gas’ TVT?! The standard go to lazy response to a well made argument that is difficult to argue with given the current situation. This is a forum so of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I was merely having an opinion on you opinion.

First proper manager we’ve had for years and he’s been starved of funding. As I said in a previous post NP has kept his part of the bargain which SL has seemingly reneged on. It annoys me that NP will ultimately be made the scapegoat and a lot on here will applaud that ,frankly, I believe, through their own ignorance. Please understand that SL is the one constant in the historical and ongoing underachievement of our club. Thanks for your articulate response by the way.

What’s this got to do with Lansdown? Are you for real?!! With a couple more injuries we will be down to a 5-aside team and still no sign of the Scott cash being reinvested. Seriously mate you get the team/club you deserve….

Incidental? That is incorrect. Every club has to grow its income, more so with revised FFP regulations. There is a reason you have seen substantial new ground investments in the Prem, and still there are developments underway, such as Anfield and the new Everton ground. Man United are looking to rebuild Old Trafford, Leeds wants to rebuild Elland `road, Palace has advanced plans to expand dramatically Selhurst Park. The list goes on. Non media income is around 30% of overall income at the better Prem sides, and each club is seeking to grow it. Liverpool were quoting a target of £100M and growing for non media income. Hardly incidental. AG has sold out to home fans already this season. For a side that has performed at a very middling to poor level in the league for a number of years. AG would clearly be inadequate for a sustained Prem side. Current capcity is , with segregation under 26 k, with 22k for home fans. That would easily sell out when , ok when..., Bristol becomes the 53/54th side to get to the Prem. The origional Ashton Vale plans had a 32k base design with a ramp up to 40k. that would be clser to where a Prem league BCFC would be aiming. Totally bonkers that it never went ahead. AG is landlocked to an extent. 3 sides of the ground have limitations. The most restrictive being the Dolman, followed by the Atyeo ,you can rebuild it, but with minimal gains in capacity if you do not buy the (12-15?) houses behind it. Followed by the South stand, that has 4/5 houses in the corner that you would need to buy, to enable a double/triple tier stand. The Lansdown could have another tier added (but would require replanning the sporting quarter). It is still quite a small stand compared to many in the Prem (The Anfield road new stand, and main stand are huge) With hindsight, now ownng the land where the sporting quarter is intended, the ground should have been moved . The overall plot size would easily enabe any size stadium you could desire. It is rather "little Bristol" when there is talk of "it is fine for what we need now". That thinking is exactly why we are where we are . There are 4 decades of fans who have never seen top flight football in Bristol, a few lifetimes for some. But the fanbase growth potential is clearly there. A whole new generation of fans, new fans. So there at least needs to be a master plan to grow AG. Some future investors place great importance to current ground capacity and facilities, but also, very importantly, site potential for growth. 40k (actual/potential) is a minimum target number for many ( though certainly not all investors) To discuss the current Prem grounds that are similar smaller to AG Luton - What do you wnat to say? Bournmouth - Plans to rebuild one day for a 20k stadium. It is not a city, population linited and many competing local clubs. Fulham - Heavily land locked and planning constraints, stadium under devlopment with many complex issues. Aim is to have 29500 capacity Brentford - New stadium, 17k significant competition from other London Prem sides Burnley - Small town , similar to Cheltenham Palace - Selhusrst Park to have new main stand, taking capacity from 26k to 34k Nottingham F - Plans preogressing to take Capacity to 34k as phase 1 If we get to the Prem, only Luton, Bournmouth and Brentford will have a stadium smaller than AG with the current line up. For the City of Bristol. The catchment area, the relative wealth. No history of success, true, but the other basics are there. AG is a lovely ground. No doubts. But it is a Championship ground all the same and would appear too small for a Prem league Bristol City. You would think that City in the Prem would easily sell out all home seats as season tickets. Indeed, City with any scent of promotion would sell out every week. Unfortuately with grounds/stadium , these are not decisions that are taken overnight, and the impact is very much long term and can take years, even decades to realise. (or to realise your errors).