italian dave

And Grimsby. Celebrating our destruction of the oceans by over fishing…..?

I found quite a lot interesting. It’s a long article, I don’t want to go through every bit, but the whole issue of an inland City with a ship on its coat of arms, the links between the cotton mills and slavery, why the bee is also such a symbol of Manchester, and a whole lot more. And this really isn’t intended as a go at your original post. I’m glad you posted it. I probably wouldn’t have found and read the article otherwise. All I’d question in that OP is whether the article really is “calling for….” - as I’ve said that’s not how I read it. It says that there are calls for…but also gives equal prominence to those who don’t share that view. Edit: PS The headline starts “does…..” and ends “?”. I agree though that the ‘this symbol of slavery’ is poorly worded.

Just trying to lighten the tone! I think I’ve done anything but try to avoid answering your questions! ??

And if you were related to Henry VIII the wouldn’t you be interested in reading something about that link? I’m not quite sure why you’re getting so cross about me saying that an article in a newspaper is something I found interesting. You didn’t. Fair enough. As I’ve said above, I just didn’t read it as the ‘attack piece’ it’s being portrayed as, but as a fairly well balanced article on the subject.

Crikey….statues!! Now there’s a word from the past and a memory of debates on here that got wildly out of hand!! Don’t you just love OTIB - mascots and statues all in one thread!

Well, I’d kind of hope that no-one would disagree with the sentiment of my second paragraph! Although I still don’t get the relevance of modern day slavery in Libya. Maybe we just have to disagree on the article then - which is fair enough. I just didn’t see it as the “attack piece” that some have taken it for. It makes a point of giving both sides of the argument, equally well and with equal prominence. I thought it was interesting about the history and symbolism of the ship. I don’t know that it was badly researched: it suggests that there is disagreement about the precise nature of the ship and I’ve yet to see any convincing evidence that makes the case for it being a specific type either way. I don’t claim to know - to me even the ships on the two club badges don’t look the same!! So I found it interesting to read the arguments for and against. Does it worry me if the clubs keep the badge? No. Would it worry me if they removed them? Probably not a lot either. But that didn’t stop me finding the article an interesting read.

Which bit?

And, again, the article itself makes exactly that point about ships generally. But the question - and it’s a question, not a statement or assumption - is whether this represents a very specific type of ship. And there are people who don’t think it does, and well as people who think it’s irrelevant even if it does - all of which is acknowledged in the article. Slavery is wrong. Doesn’t matter when, who, how, the colour of the slave or of the trader. I’m not sure why you think that anyone would think otherwise. And why you seem to feel that somehow the fact that it’s still goes on today, and is practiced by black slave traders, somehow makes what happened in the past any less awful. I can post links of - literally - dozens of Guardian articles about slavery in Libya if you really want me to. It just seems a bit of a waste of time just to prove the point - you can Google it as easily as me!

Where is anyone suggesting that anyone should be “punished”?

Well, interestingly, I was about to suggest that you read it because it makes and discusses just the points that you made in your longer post above. It’s slightly more nuanced than your post suggests. Much of Manchester’s wealth may have come after slavery was abolished in the UK, but it came from the wealth of merchants who’d made much of that wealth through the trade, and it came from cotton produced by those people who’d been traded by those merchants and who were still enslaved on the cotton plantations - slavery in the US wasn’t abolished until many years later than it was in the UK. And the article actually makes many of the points you’re making: it’s not clear cut, it’s not something on which everyone agrees - and even then when you talk about the opinions of the ‘silent majority’ - it’s b not clear what opinions you’re referring to - there are a huge number of issues in there. I doubt that the silent majority support the concept of slavery, or of anyone benefitting from it. And equally - as the article makes clear - there are other badges and ships that very evidently have no potential connections whatsoever, and there’s not even a minority suggesting those be removed. But there then a whole great area in between those extremes. So, yes, I’d say this one is well worth a read.

Any mention of Bristol City and penalties?!!

Before piling in with the usual cries of outrage, it’s actually worth reading what I think is an interesting article. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/apr/19/abandon-ship-does-this-symbol-of-slavery-shame-manchester-and-its-football-clubs (and, @AshtonGreat, it’s also reported in the Mail - although promoting that outrage is more their thing I’d imagine!?) It’s not a “campaign”: it’s a question. Note the ? At the end of the article’s title. It’s very explicit that this is not about ships generally - and it explicitly mentions other club badges in that regard. And it’s about a question as to whether the ships on the club badges - and probably more significantly on the City’s coat of arms - is a specific type of ship that was associated with the trade on which Manchester was built. A trade which relied on slavery. And a trade which the Guardian itself acknowledges helped to make the wealth of its own founder. Worth a read I’d suggest.

The same bloke who was shouting "forward, forward, shoot, shoot"?!

We’re not ‘old boys’ Redoxo, we’re the VPY (Victims of the Passing Years) Community ?

I agree with you that the ‘singing section’ (for want of a better description) seems to have moved or been moved all over the place in recent years. I guess the redevelopment didn’t help. But I don’t think there’s any conspiracy about why they are in that corner now. It was in no small part about standing, and an area they could make standing without problems with neighbouring blocks. And where they could do so without upsetting long standing ‘residents’ like @Ska Junkie - because there are no long standing residents of the corners.

I’ve got the same recollection. Although, like you, based on nothing more than my memory - which I trust less by the day!

Says the poster who’s never had a good word to say about the manager who took us closer to the top flight than anyone else in half a century….. ??

If it’s coming from a Welsh government grant then it’s not going to be money that could otherwise be spent on either reducing council tax or on other local services. Same as if it had been the levelling up money from the UK government which was also applied for.

Yes, agree WSM, but I also think the point that NR makes is crucial. It’s not as simple as ‘calling players out’ being good or bad per se. Depends on the player. You have to trust (and I do) that NP knows that and knows the players better than we do. Someone like Liam Fontaine, or more recently perhaps Zak Vyner, it probably wouldn’t have helped in the slightest.

Thanks. I can't recall the Magnússon comments especially - my recollection with regard to LJ was more often than not about Taylor Moore. It seems like a fairly fine line to me - and even then you probably have to factor in things like knowing how players will react (for some handling it one way would be a good way to get an improvement, for another player quite the reverse). And I'm not suggesting that NP was wrong (or that LJ was wrong). It's just that it is all about nuance and fine lines. And what I see from a few posters on here (and I'm not including you in this!) is people for whom "Nige" can do no wrong and for whom LJ could do nothing right, who can see nothing but good man management in what NP said last night and yet would be lining up to criticise LJ for saying something similar - and sorry but I'm struggling to find that much nuance in those posters' views!!

I think what some people (me, anyway) struggle to understand is the difference between “sticking a rocket….”, “calling him out”, and “scapegoating”.

I’m no apologist for officials, and will stand with anyone in criticising the current standard, but I don’t think it’s OK for players to do ‘all they can’ (with the implication that it doesn’t matter whether it’s within the rules or not). And to then criticise referees whose lives are made massively more difficult by players who deliberately cheat and try to deceive the referee.

Arguing with referees?

Hitting the woodwork Isn’t scoring goals and doesn’t get points. And 2 in the 6 games before that. We’ve struggled to score consistently for a while now, failing to turn what (as I’ve said I agree with you) are good performances into wins and points. The last two games are good examples. As I said, I’m not disagreeing with you about performances otherwise being good (with a couple of exceptions) - just that however good they are next season it will count for nothing if we don’t learn to convert possession into goals when we’re on top of games.

I don’t disagree, Pete, but at the end of the day ‘performance’ has to include sticking the ball in the net to be really good. And we’re consistently failing to do that. That’s my only worry.