chinapig

Shambles doesn't even begin to cover it.

Yet the 6th richest club in the country, with a top manager (©J Barton), finished below Swindon!

1 minute ago, MarcusX said:

Yea that's what I mean, you do the LFT go to the site to report it and you tell the site whether it was negative or positive. Choose negative and you get your text / email. There's no way of concluding that you actually did a test so IMO proof of a negative test via LFT is pointless really.

PCR would be better, but a bit more hassle plus the risk of taking 2 days to get results

Am I right in saying that LFTs are far more likely to produce false positives/negatives as well?

17 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

Look.

I'll contact my friends on my government trackable smart phone, get in my car with a government mandated license and insurance, travel to the pub with a government license to serve heavily regulated alcohol (the government has banned the kids I got with from having any though), before going to the city ground regularly inspected by government health and safety teams with multiple licenses, and sitting in my seat as the government have banned terraces so I can't stand. I'll have to have a cigarette on the way though as the government have banned me smoking and drinking in there.

What I will NOT acquiesce to though is the government deciding what I can and can't do!

Are you a seatbelt fundamentalist though?

27 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Not at all- just don't appreciate being bounced into something. I still take steps that entail significant personal responsibility about Covid but not up to the Vaccine/Vaccine Passport. If hectored, why should I bother- plenty don't bother with twice weekly LFTs I expect.

If you've been double jabbed, what are you scared of exactly.

Personally the only fear I have had throughout the pandemic is that I might be infected and pass it on to somebody who then died.

I'm glad and not surprised you behave responsibly but please do think of protecting yourself. This article yesterday was heartbreaking.

For some people, the moment the ambulance arrives is the time they start expressing regrets about not receiving a coronavirus vaccine. For others, it’s the death of a loved one.

Healthcare workers and Covid patients have spoken out about growing numbers who, once faced with the serious reality of catching the virus, realise that they made a huge mistake.

Dr Samantha Batt-Rawden, a senior intensive care registrar, said she had only come across one patient in critical care who had received both vaccination doses, and that the “vast majority” of people she was seeing were “completely unvaccinated”.

Batt-Rawden said it was difficult to witness the look of regret on patient’s faces when they became very unwell and needed to go on a ventilator. “You can see it dawn on them that they potentially made the biggest mistake of their lives [in not getting the vaccine], which is really hard,” she said, adding that she had overheard people telling family members about their remorse.

The patients who pull through are for ever changed – their Covid scepticism disappears once they have experienced time in intensive care, Batt-Rawden said.

One patient who regrets not being inoculated is teacher Abderrahmane Fadil, who nearly died from the virus. Speaking from his hospital bed last month, he said: “At the moment I am Covid-19 positive … My road to recovery has been excellent and positive and I am looking forward to getting the jab as soon as I get out of the hospital. I advise everyone to get it. I for one am prepared to go to hell to get the jab, instead of waiting for the disease to devour each and every one of us,” he said.

Glenn Barratt passed away in the Diana, Princess of Wales hospital in Grimsby after fighting coronavirus for weeks. The 51-year-old, from Cleethorpes, had opted not to have the vaccine. But his final words to bedside nurses and doctors were: “I wish I had.”

His family has now urged others not to make the same mistake. Ken Meech, a cousin, said if his relative had been vaccinated, “he would still be with us today”.

He told the Staffordshire newspaper the Sentinel: “I’m not a doom-monger or someone who’s telling you what you should do or not do. After all, we are supposed to live in a free world. But this is one of the saddest times of my life, losing my cousin, Big Glenn Barratt, to Covid.”

Carla Hodges, 35, whose stepfather, Leslie Lawrenson, 58, died at home from the virus on 2 July and whose mother ended up in hospital, said it had been a big wake-up call on the importance of inoculation. Lawrenson did not believe in vaccines.

“My mother did not have the vaccine either, although she had underlying health conditions such as diabetes,” Hodges said.

She said her mother was now looking to get a jab: “She is very lucky to still be here … I know not getting vaccinated is a massive regret of my mother’s. She was embarrassed to tell hospital staff she had not had the jab.”

Batt-Rawden said families often ask if anything could have been done to prevent the situation.

“You know that there is something that the patient could have had which would have meant their life is not at risk, and it is a question we get asked a lot,” she said, adding that in some instances relatives have actively discouraged their loved ones from getting vaccinated. A lot of the misinformation came from social media, she said.

Batt-Rawden said she felt guilty when patients came in and were not protected, as she thinks “we have failed them as a system and a country”. She said doctors will continue to speak up, advising anyone on the fence to get the jab. “The side-effects are mild … Listen to doctors who work in intensive care, because we are heartbroken every day and don’t want you to end up here.”

9 minutes ago, Peter O Hanraha-hanrahan said:

I might be missing something here, but didn’t he just get them relegated?

Someone might want to inform this genius.

Come now it was nothing to do with him, he said so. Presumably this genius, and the rest of them, agree with him.

7 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Shouting in stadiums tends to be to the air, to express your displeasure!

Or celebrating goals. So pretty low risk to our fans then!

9 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

However, it appears you still do not understand how vaccines work or understand statistical risk.

This is such an important point not just re vaccines but more widely. There is a serious lack of knowledge among politicians, journalists and the wider population about risk and uncertainty.

Anybody who wants to educate themselves can watch videos by Sir David Spiegelhalter on YouTube. Very good communicator, both interesting and entertaining.

Of course there is the alternative of drawing conclusions based on no knowledge. Which an awful lot of people seem to prefer.

6 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

What are some of these Vaccine fundamentalists afraid of exactly?

We're in the beginning of the end of Covid, it'll fade away to something flu like or fairly mild I reckon. Double jabbed should be ample protection.

It seems increasingly that boosters will be required. With sufficient coverage, around 85% with the Delta variant, and any subsequent boosters, we should reach a reasonable level of immunity. The unknown is as usual whether further variants will evolve that vaccines are not effective against. With a high level of vaccination this is less likely.

Flu kills thousands a year in this country though so is not a trivial thing. 

2 minutes ago, big p said:

How the bloody hell can I be an antivaxer, when I've been double jabbed :laugh:... I'm really struggling to understand some people here.. Believe what you like and enjoy life but please stop being angry. It's such a waste of energy.

Correct me if I'm wrong but your objection seems to be to vaccine passports.

There are legitimate objections from both the left and right of the political spectrum - I see the Labour party has come out against and a number of Tory MPs have publicly opposed them. Personally I'm not keen on requiring them by law though I accept individual businesses should be free to decide their own policies.

None of the legitimate objections relies on conspiracy theories though, which is where we part company.

2 minutes ago, big p said:

Because people have differing opinions, what a weird bunch of people are in this group...Will we be proven right probably, maybe not. But one thing is certain people like you will be sitting in front of the BBC news waiting for the daily case count( which is completely odd to me) believing all the bullshit they spill to you. Unable in any capacity to question anything the media/government tells you.. Sit down dont wear a mask, stand up you wear it, yes sir...

lots of us who are questioning the narrative have been living safe and happy lives, whereas some people are still sh*ting themselves behind the sofa...

As I said, you can hold any opinion you choose even if there is no evidence to support it. But you can't make factual claims without supporting them with evidence. Like claiming the BBC did not report the protests for example.

You can hold an irrational view that there is a world wide conspiracy between governments, epidemiologists, the entire medical profession, the media and others but you may not get much traction without the evidence.

To quote another long standing saying, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

7 minutes ago, big p said:

There are 10's of millions of people protesting against the loss of freedoms , You won't see it on the BBC news for obvious reasons, but of course there are all sorts of people there, good and bad.

Odd then that I have read about the protests in London, Sidney and Paris on the BBC website and other outlets. If you are going to make claims you need to support them with evidence.

As the saying goes, you are entitled to your own opinions but not to your own facts.

1 hour ago, big p said:

I'm taking about the covid passport, pretty sure the NHS app will evolve in to the covid passport.

The app already includes it and as others have said you can get a paper version if you choose.

The app you referred to as being rejected by Apple and Android was the original Covid-19 app that was being developed without engaging with them, much as the test and trace system was developed without including local public health teams. More cock up than conspiracy perhaps.

But if you are concerned about being under surveillance it's too late. Everybody from Facebook, Google and Twitter to GCHQ is already hoovering up all our online activity. The horse bolted long ago.

3 minutes ago, big p said:

But do you know android and Ios refused the NHS app because there were considerable security flaws...GPS etc... But our government wouldn't do that, would they?

Yet I have the NHS app on my Android phone. Very handy for booking appointments and ordering repeat prescriptions I find.

I think you may be getting confused with the original government inspired Covid-19 app that was going to be 'world beating' but was junked because it was no good.

2 minutes ago, big p said:

But it doesn't stop it. So what's the point of the passport...

It's really not difficult..

To provide evidence of vaccination to show that you are a much lower risk to others.

Personally I am not entirely comfortable with compulsory passports but their purpose is not difficult to understand.

58 minutes ago, slartibartfast said:

Gee, Officer Krupke you've done it again !

This *** don't need a job, he needs a year in the pen.

Deep down inside him he's no good!

4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Just googled that and seen it- wonder if that could see a UEFA case reopened or fresh charges materialise there if it sticks at PL level.

Surely if under Investigation for alleged breaches, an Embargo can be slapped on by the PL as it can at our level- the Rules are in theory the same after all.

In the UEFA case CAS ruled that some charges were unproven and others time barred. Not exactly a not guilty verdict but I doubt the case will be revived.

And I just don't see the PL using sanctions against any of the big clubs as they are the ones who bring in the big TV money.

7 hours ago, Hxj said:

So have you handed your driving licence back as I doubt you have not committed at least 4 speeding offences in the last three years.  Or do you mean - if I didn't get caught it doesn't count?

The 'players of professional standing position' is as a direct result of playing an FA Cup match whereas Northampton were not required to play their league matches.

To me natural justice requires an intelligent nuanced approach to punishment.

I chose to stop driving a few years ago because of disability but before that I'm afraid I was one of those irritating drivers who stuck to the speed limit!

And for your equivalence to apply Derby would have to have shopped themselves to the EFL. Though I suspect I am missing your point.

You could certainly have nuance if discretion is written into the regulations.

This would tend I think to lead to (more) inconsistency in decision making. If club A is given some discretionary leeway then clubs B-Z will inevitably demand the same, justified or not. Probably dragging out the process still further.

Apropos of which, sort of, Man City are still under investigation by the PL  having just had an attempt to halt the process rejected by the Court of Appeal. Like Derby they tried refusing to provide evidence and put off the day of judgement. Since the investigation began City have been champions twice!

Still, you have sympathy for Derby and I don't so I doubt we will agree any time soon but the debate is always interesting, thanks.

3 minutes ago, Loco Rojo said:

So the EFL punish Derby because they broke the rules (and I'm sure some would say they got off lightly) and then reduce that punishment because Derby don't like it. 

Then impose new, lenient, conditions.....wonder how long those conditions will last.

Great message to send all the other teams.

The EFL everyone. The Borris Johnson of the football world. 

Yes but, you know, Wayne Rooney and stuff.

30 minutes ago, Hxj said:

I know I'll get slated for this, but I have some sympathy for Derby on the player position.

The club still has a mountain of debt and no one wants to own them.

Whilst they can sign players, they are limited and start their campaign in 18 days time, and haven't signed anyone yet.

Plus of course we are still awaiting the FFP position.

All of which is a consequence of multiple breaches of the rules. They knew what they were doing and what the sanctions were so I don't see much cause for sympathy. Any more than I would expect any if ,say, I knowingly break traffic law and have my right to drive suspended.

But the EFL has predictably rowed back so it's a bit academic now.

9 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

EFL have Regulation 16.20 at their disposal which needs minimal criteria to invoke- that compels a Club to stick to a budget until such time as the EFL are satisfied.

Again, the question is less what regulations they have at their disposal but whether they apply them without fear or favour. 

9 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Stadium Sale profit ban is quite positive. Embargo Reporting Service ie the transparency surrounding Embargoes, that is a good start, maybe club fans should lobby their Clubs enmasse which in turn could feed into the EFL.

On a sidenote, people say "Oh think about the fans" when it comes to clubs being punished, "It's not fair on the fans"- but Derby have a weird mix of aggression, arrogance, entitlement and ignorance in their fanbase on these matters at least- I say in this instance bollocks to the fans, **** the fans- deserve all they get a decent number of their fanbase.

I reiterate, I don't recall Birmingham and Sheffield Wednesday being so objectionable for so long, from a fans perspective.

The stadium sale loophole, mysteriously appearing with nobody seeming to notice, has served its purpose. The clubs who wanted it got what they wanted, perhaps encouraged by the former EFL CEO, so the stable door has been shut after the horse has bolted.

6 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

That's the odd thing however- just the other week, or a few weeks back clubs voted to a) Stop the Stadium Loophole moving forward b) To publish Embargoes and reasons for these c) To tighten the regulations.

Doesn't really feel like the direction of travel is for a loosening at this stage.

Plus Gibson's CEO is one of the new Club Directors- Forest- another Club who are within FFP and shock horror Risdale are the others, but he is quite pro FFP by dint of Preston.

Derby fans are still complaining that the EFL have it in for them etc, in some cases. I wonder if there should be a mass email campaign by fans of a majority of Championship Clubs to the EFL.

I don't remember the perpetual whining by Sheffield Wednesday and Birmingham fans, yes there was kickback but not like this- they really are as far as a decent proportion goes, a fairly despicable fanbase with a Scumbag of an Owner- CEO also scum as are their Auditor mates- with a strong sense of entitlement Derby.

You can write all the rules you want but the issue is one of enforcement. If the EFL backs down as it has here, if disciplinary bodies come up with weak sanctions and/or appellate bodies reduce sanctions, as they did with Sheff Wed despite their egregious offences, and if other clubs just stand by, the rules fall into disrepute.

22 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

This should be a bit of a watershed- fans of clubs should enmasse email the EFL, those compliant clubs and those who were punished- granted those they can sign are of limited wage and limited number and the case is still ongoing, but I'd like to see fans really let the EFL know, mass email campaign.

That presupposes they give a toss what fans think. We know what our club's owner thinks of us for instance and he is one of the relative good guys.

There has been much talk for instance about how important fans are recently following the Super League scandal but does anybody believe there will be anything but cosmetic changes?

I wonder if we are approaching a tipping point when it comes to FFP. Unless the so -called fan led review mandates a Board with a majority of independent non-Executives with extensive powers , which I doubt, and given the current regime's continuing spinelessness, I suspect enough influential Championship clubs will want to weaken the rules even further.

At which point FFP will become even more of a pretence than it is now, assuming it doesn't wither altogether.

Let's face it, Steve Gibson is the only owner to stick his head above the parapet. Our owner has maintained radio silence on the other hand.

My money's on the bad guys winning.

I'm shocked I tell you, shocked! I can't imagine that Parry would bend the knee to please a celebrity manager. Would he?

I have on occasion been told I am too hard on the EFL but I'm afraid the evidence keeps reinforcing my view.