Bris Red Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 I know what people are thinking not another Lee Johnson thread, however ive always liked Lee and regarded him as one of the best footablers at the club. However this season i really really have struggled to see what the guy offers, every week i try and focus on him and see what he really does in a game, watching him on tv last night really hit home the fact that he really does not bring anything to the table. He is not dynamic he dosnt tackle he dosnt even create chances and thats what he is bloody there for! We are crying out for another Elliot in midfiled, this would realive pressure from the wings and would make every one feel a lot less under pressure, with Lee in the side especially in a 4-4-2 it really is like carrying a passenger and at this level you cant afford to do that. Leon Britton at Swansea is what Lee Johnson should be, they are both of similar height and bulid but the difference is Britton is dymanic he runs at defenders and actually Creates chances. I don't know why GJ keeps picking him. i don't believe all this father son crap he can obiously see somethiing we cant but after last night i reeally don't know what it is? I'm sorry but he has to go, its nothing to do with gj being his dad its simply to do with th fact he does not do his job and that is to create chances, another player in the mould of Elliot needs to be brought in.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bh_red Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 I know what people are thinking not another Lee Johnson thread, however ive always liked Lee and regarded him as one of the best footablers at the club. However this season i really really have struggled to see what the guy offers, every week i try and focus on him and see what he really does in a game, watching him on tv last night really hit home the fact that he really does not bring anything to the table. He is not dynamic he dosnt tackle he dosnt even create chances and thats what he is bloody there for! We are crying out for another Elliot in midfiled, this would realive pressure from the wings and would make every one feel a lot less under pressure, with Lee in the side especially in a 4-4-2 it really is like carrying a passenger and at this level you cant afford to do that. Leon Britton at Swansea is what Lee Johnson should be, they are both of similar height and bulid but the difference is Britton is dymanic he runs at defenders and actually Creates chances. I don't know why GJ keeps picking him. i don't believe all this father son crap he can obiously see somethiing we cant but after last night i reeally don't know what it is? I'm sorry but he has to go, its nothing to do with gj being his dad its simply to do with th fact he does not do his job and that is to create chances, another player in the mould of Elliot needs to be brought in.. just last night? apart from 3/4 games max..........I'd say all season and to be honest, most of 2008. Quite simply, he's totally out of his depth at this level, doesn't effect the game enough on a regualry basis, barely scores, rarely gets among the assists, constantly bottles out of tackles and however he can't half make a defensive pass to a full back? Worst Central Midfielder the club has had since Joe Burnell.........then again I take that back, Joe could actually tackle. Many of us can see it, why can't the manager? I'm fairly sure his team mates know it as well. Nothing personal against the lad, but he's just crap. But hey........always believe, let's trust gary........... :noexpression: ......sometimes it's just hard too.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee F Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 He is not crap. He just does not have the natural physical attributes to compete successfully in the CCC. He does not really bottle tackles, he just is not strong enough to win them. He cant compete in the air obviously. He plays so deep attempting to find space away from the quicker stronger opposition midfielders any creativity he possibly has is now needed to launch balls forward bypassing a midfield we are usually outnumbered in as he is missing, resulting in an attempted flick on from Adebola. The only other option he has is to play square balls to fullbacks who have the same problems as him and results in another long ball to Dele. Because as stated the midfield is outnumbered and the wingers are forced to tuck in to make a 3. Resulting in no wide out ball. LJ can play in a 5 man midfield because the extra man in there reverses the negative effects of him dropping deep. But creates a whole new problem of isolating a lone striker so the ball tends to come back at the back 4 as quick as we send it forward. In short his 'quick footballing brain' which served him well in League 1 is not enough in the CCC where the big strong atheletic players are just that bit better technically therefore negating his previous advantage. The same reason he could not play with any great success in Scotland - physically he cant cut it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Red Posted November 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 He is not crap. He just does not have the natural physical attributes to compete successfully in the CCC. He does not really bottle tackles, he just is not strong enough to win them. He cant compete in the air obviously. He plays so deep attempting to find space away from the quicker stronger opposition midfielders any creativity he possibly has is now needed to launch balls forward bypassing a midfield we are usually outnumbered in as he is missing, resulting in an attempted flick on from Adebola. The only other option he has is to play square balls to fullbacks who have the same problems as him and results in another long ball to Dele. Because as stated the midfield is outnumbered and the wingers are forced to tuck in to make a 3. Resulting in no wide out ball. LJ can play in a 5 man midfield because the extra man in there reverses the negative effects of him dropping deep. But creates a whole new problem of isolating a lone striker so the ball tends to come back at the back 4 as quick as we send it forward. In short his 'quick footballing brain' which served him well in League 1 is not enough in the CCC where the big strong atheletic players are just that bit better technically therefore negating his previous advantage. The same reason he could not play with any great success in Scotland - physically he cant cut it. Agree, in short there is no place for him in the side, i don't see why we should have to accomadate a player who offers nothing. He HAS to go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bh_red Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 He is not crap. He just does not have the natural physical attributes to compete successfully in the CCC. He does not really bottle tackles, he just is not strong enough to win them. He cant compete in the air obviously. He plays so deep attempting to find space away from the quicker stronger opposition midfielders any creativity he possibly has is now needed to launch balls forward bypassing a midfield we are usually outnumbered in as he is missing, resulting in an attempted flick on from Adebola. The only other option he has is to play square balls to fullbacks who have the same problems as him and results in another long ball to Dele. Because as stated the midfield is outnumbered and the wingers are forced to tuck in to make a 3. Resulting in no wide out ball. LJ can play in a 5 man midfield because the extra man in there reverses the negative effects of him dropping deep. But creates a whole new problem of isolating a lone striker so the ball tends to come back at the back 4 as quick as we send it forward. In short his 'quick footballing brain' which served him well in League 1 is not enough in the CCC where the big strong atheletic players are just that bit better technically therefore negating his previous advantage. The same reason he could not play with any great success in Scotland - physically he cant cut it. so in short, he's not crap, just not good enough??? To be fair he doesn't bottle tackles, on too many times now I've seen this season he will just instead back off, off, off the player and almost get himself as far away from the ball despite the player running at him, it happened again last night. Although the his size doesn't help him, to be honest is he any shorter than Dennis Wise? he was of similar stature, but he actually wasn't afriad to get stuck into player, totally different players, but an example that "smaller" players can make it, if they have the bottle. As inital poster mentioned Leon Britton is another one of a similar size and I can recall him ripping us to pieces a few season back for Swansea and showed that if you have the courage you can get by. on a side note, I'd say there were for more phyiscal and tougher players in the lower leagues which LJ has done well in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rasherpudding Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 I think your analysis is sound. This season he cannot stand up to the hurly burley of the Championship. I think this is a combination od the fact that the opposition have worked us out this season after being last seasons surprise package. Overall he is easily overpowered and knocked off the ball and this season he is pulling out of tackles I would expect any city player to commit to. In addition the midfield is badly balalced, Noble and McIndoe come inside and makes us narrow, Carle should have been playing here, in the current team I would give Noble a run in place of LJ and then use the wide midfielders with more effect. More worrying is that GJ doesnt appear to see what many fans can. It seems that we do need a bit of a refresh, but I don't think many of GJ's purchases have worked out as well as we had hoped. Only Elliott is a stick on buy from the GJ era as far as the Championship form is concerned. I hope any reshuffle looks at the real issues and improves quality. At the moment there are many city players who are not performing, LJ is high on the list but few can hold their heads up at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
windmillhillred Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 We are crying out for another Elliot in midfiled, And Elliott's done what this season exactly? The whole of the midfield have struggled all year - the odd good game from LJ and MM, and glimpses from Noble, Williams and Elliott aside, there is no doubting that we have been poor collectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee F Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 so in short, he's not crap, just not good enough??? To be fair he doesn't bottle tackles, on too many times now I've seen this season he will just instead back off, off, off the player and almost get himself as far away from the ball despite the player running at him, it happened again last night. Although the his size doesn't help him, to be honest is he any shorter than Dennis Wise? he was of similar stature, but he actually wasn't afriad to get stuck into player, totally different players, but an example that "smaller" players can make it, if they have the bottle. As inital poster mentioned Leon Britton is another one of a similar size and I can recall him ripping us to pieces a few season back for Swansea and showed that if you have the courage you can get by. on a side note, I'd say there were for more phyiscal and tougher players in the lower leagues which LJ has done well in? Yes I agree he backs off rather than bottling tackles, not a great way to defend but better than bottling. Dennis Wise was a 'terrier' of a midfielder so the comparison is not a fair one to either player. I agree smaller players do make it at the highest level but not many of note recently. Leon Britton - 1st season in the CCC - jury out on his adaptability at this level surely? Lower league midfielders may be just as atheletic / tougher than CCC players but as I stated CCC midfielders tend to have more technical ability hence the step up in class for a smaller player is more of a challenge. LJ excelled (depending on your opinion) at a lower level due to his speed of thought and better reading of the game along with better technical ability than the opposition. Exceptions to the rule do and will always exist but look at the best central midfielders in the world today and you will see a 6ft, atheletic player with at least 4 of the following - fantastic vision, passing, tackling and heading ability along with a ability to score goals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lack of Action Man Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 I know what people are thinking not another Lee Johnson thread, however ive always liked Lee and regarded him as one of the best footablers at the club. However this season i really really have struggled to see what the guy offers, every week i try and focus on him and see what he really does in a game, watching him on tv last night really hit home the fact that he really does not bring anything to the table. He is not dynamic he dosnt tackle he dosnt even create chances and thats what he is bloody there for! We are crying out for another Elliot in midfiled, this would realive pressure from the wings and would make every one feel a lot less under pressure, with Lee in the side especially in a 4-4-2 it really is like carrying a passenger and at this level you cant afford to do that. Leon Britton at Swansea is what Lee Johnson should be, they are both of similar height and bulid but the difference is Britton is dymanic he runs at defenders and actually Creates chances. I don't know why GJ keeps picking him. i don't believe all this father son crap he can obiously see somethiing we cant but after last night i reeally don't know what it is? I'm sorry but he has to go, its nothing to do with gj being his dad its simply to do with th fact he does not do his job and that is to create chances, another player in the mould of Elliot needs to be brought in.. Good post! I have to say I thought Lee J would get a good season under his belt this year as he started it brightly but recently his play is basic at best offering little more than what any other midfielder at our club can. I personally would like to see McIndoe moved into central midfield. You might think that's a cr*p decision but consider this, he moves into the middle of the park when he plays on the wings and against Reading when Lee J was taken off and Mcindoe seemed to control the game albeit that Reading may have eased off us a bit still though no reason not for a change. Would also consider the value of Wilson based on current form and why is Weale gone? If it is for first team experience then I suppose I'm for it but he is a fantastic sportsman and deputy to Basso and would love him to do well here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenyards Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 I don't think we have any p[layer that could be described as "a Midfield general". I'd like to see Gary go for such a player in the January transfer window. In the way that Carey (when on top form) dominates the defence we need someone in the middle who id directing things and who puts everyone in their place. Lee Johnson has some of the attributes but he doesn't "run" the game as some of the opposition midfielders have done against us. Maybe an experienced player that the less experienced players will look up to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denilson Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 He is not crap. He just does not have the natural physical attributes to compete successfully in the CCC. He does not really bottle tackles, he just is not strong enough to win them. He cant compete in the air obviously. He plays so deep attempting to find space away from the quicker stronger opposition midfielders any creativity he possibly has is now needed to launch balls forward bypassing a midfield we are usually outnumbered in as he is missing, resulting in an attempted flick on from Adebola. The only other option he has is to play square balls to fullbacks who have the same problems as him and results in another long ball to Dele. Because as stated the midfield is outnumbered and the wingers are forced to tuck in to make a 3. Resulting in no wide out ball. LJ can play in a 5 man midfield because the extra man in there reverses the negative effects of him dropping deep. But creates a whole new problem of isolating a lone striker so the ball tends to come back at the back 4 as quick as we send it forward. In short his 'quick footballing brain' which served him well in League 1 is not enough in the CCC where the big strong atheletic players are just that bit better technically therefore negating his previous advantage. The same reason he could not play with any great success in Scotland - physically he cant cut it. Yes he does? He always jumps out of tackles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redcityman Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 I know what people are thinking not another Lee Johnson thread, however ive always liked Lee and regarded him as one of the best footablers at the club. However this season i really really have struggled to see what the guy offers, every week i try and focus on him and see what he really does in a game, watching him on tv last night really hit home the fact that he really does not bring anything to the table. He is not dynamic he dosnt tackle he dosnt even create chances and thats what he is bloody there for! We are crying out for another Elliot in midfiled, this would realive pressure from the wings and would make every one feel a lot less under pressure, with Lee in the side especially in a 4-4-2 it really is like carrying a passenger and at this level you cant afford to do that. Leon Britton at Swansea is what Lee Johnson should be, they are both of similar height and bulid but the difference is Britton is dymanic he runs at defenders and actually Creates chances. I don't know why GJ keeps picking him. i don't believe all this father son crap he can obiously see somethiing we cant but after last night i reeally don't know what it is? I'm sorry but he has to go, its nothing to do with gj being his dad its simply to do with th fact he does not do his job and that is to create chances, another player in the mould of Elliot needs to be brought in.. I agree with all what you say, But if you regard him as one of our best players what does that say about the rest! As to the subject of size and taking people on/tackling etc, for me it doesn't wash, Bremner, Strachan, Galliers and Martin Scott , these weren't exactly shrinking violets, loyalty is an excellent trait to have, but loyalty in football can only take you so far, time for GJ to say to a few players (it's not just LJ ) you gave it your best shot, thankyou but as a club in order to progress we have to move on. To make an omlette eggs have to be broken, i'm sure Gary will sort it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcfcmike Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 He just does not deserve that shirt....and i'm sure if any other manager was at the gate he would not be played.......Awful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUMMAT OUTTA NOWT Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 The trouble is this season none of our midfield has performed. Even Marv looks a shadow of the general from last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REDOXO Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 We are soft in midfield... Lee is a very good player and tries to play players in, however that is not the issue right now...we are out muscled and out ran in midfield we aren't strong enough in any phase of play or in or between boxes....A reason why GJ played 451 to give us more bodies in the middle of the park. However that did not work consistently and in a 442 we are just weak... We need a stronger better player to play with Elliott, which will hopefully make him raise his game, bought in the transfer window in the mean time keep your fingers crossed.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rednready Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 Look at the clubs getting promoted or beating us when we could have won due to chances created. Clubs like Stoke and now Preston. They have gorillas in defence and as many of you have mentioned they out muscle us in the center of the pitch. That being the case then it answers GJ's comment and most other peoples comments about our utter deficiency in the final third. If our midfield is being out muscled then our final third is a non issue.. Quite frankly, I'me totally annoyed by this situation, its been done to death. Everyone without a coffin or a death mask can see the problem. That may be ott, but I could also be right on the money. LJ is not good enough at Championship level and I go back to my original comment when Carle was sold. We should have used Carle + Cash for Watson from Palace. Elliot and Watson would be a killer midfield. Perhaps that was too hard to negotiate. Imo a better deal than the 2.2 million for Maynard who will come good. GJ is a good manager, he has the results to prove it. At this level its a different ball game, he will need to lift his game as much as he says the players need to lift theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJC Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 Although certainly far from a compliment Johnson was our 2nd best midfielder vs Preston. Noble was virtually absent the entire game whereas Elliot, once again this season, failed to produce a performance of influence. Lets face facts here, people talk about Johnson not doing a job for the team, Elliot is currently failing to fulfil any role what-so-ever. We fail to win ANY 2nd ball and attacks are rarely broken down in midfield, both of which are, in essence, Elliots job. I like Elliot but his continual avoidance of criticism while Johnson bares the brunt is incredibly frustrating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Stand Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 Although certainly far from a compliment Johnson was our 2nd best midfielder vs Preston. Noble was virtually absent the entire game whereas Elliot, once again this season, failed to produce a performance of influence. Lets face facts here, people talk about Johnson not doing a job for the team, Elliot is currently failing to fulfil any role what-so-ever. We fail to win ANY 2nd ball and attacks are rarely broken down in midfield, both of which are, in essence, Elliots job. I like Elliot but his continual avoidance of criticism while Johnson bares the brunt is incredibly frustrating. Because of his performances last year Elliott is a bit of a sacred cow on here. Someone even posted that they thought he'd got fed up of covering for LJ, hence his poor performances. His passing has always been suspect but last season he seemed to win every 50/50 & many 40/60's - he was playing high up the pitch & had a good eye for goal. Most of this season he's been chasing shadows to no avail, our only hope is that it's a fitness issue & nothing else. Being a pessimist the when we signed him the Millwall fans said he always faded after Xmas ..... he did last year... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redcityman Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 Although certainly far from a compliment Johnson was our 2nd best midfielder vs Preston. Noble was virtually absent the entire game whereas Elliot, once again this season, failed to produce a performance of influence. Lets face facts here, people talk about Johnson not doing a job for the team, Elliot is currently failing to fulfil any role what-so-ever. We fail to win ANY 2nd ball and attacks are rarely broken down in midfield, both of which are, in essence, Elliots job. I like Elliot but his continual avoidance of criticism while Johnson bares the brunt is incredibly frustrating. That's odd because I have always felt it was everyones job to put in tackles and break up attacks, I believe they call it defending. :noexpression: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy g Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 yawn. I've read through every part of this thread and there's nothing here that hasnt been said a million times already. Time to accept Gary wants Lee Johnson in the team and get used to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westy Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 Played - 20, Goals - 1, Assists - 1 says it all - if this is our creative midfielder then our expectations need to change!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Stand Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 Played - 20, Goals - 1, Assists - 1 says it all - if this is our creative midfielder then our expectations need to change!! One area where he deserves defending is on the assists side - he has created a lot of chances this season, 3 times he's put Sproule through on goal (each time he failed to score), it was his ball that put Dele through v Forest & his cross that gave Dele a good chance against Sheff Utd & his shot which led to Trundles miss against the same team. In fairness to him, few players can play a through ball & run on to it themselves & score. Whilst I agree we don't make enough chances we also aren't clinical enough on the chances we do make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seend Red Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 Wow! If you'd of posted this a few months ago there would of been many lining up to defend the guy, interesting to see that many are now coming around to the reality that Lee really is way out of his depth. Of course Lee's not responsible for all of the current problems but he's certainly one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheese Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 Wow! If you'd of posted this a few months ago there would of been many lining up to defend the guy, interesting to see that many are now coming around to the reality that Lee really is way out of his depth. Of course Lee's not responsible for all of the current problems but he's certainly one of them. No, we're all bored with it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seend Red Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 No, we're all bored with it now. Me too. But people will keep talking because he keeps playing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingswood red Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 No, we're all bored with it now. So now you have run out of reasons why he should be playing, you don't want to play anymore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 Yes he does? He always jumps out of tackles No he does'nt.Hes not the best tackler but he still wins a few, every player has there strengths. Elliot cant pass the ball half as well as Johnson but doesnt get slated because of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinapig Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 That's odd because I have always felt it was everyones job to put in tackles and break up attacks, I believe they call it defending. :noexpression: The epitome being the tough-tackling David Noble presumably? There may be sound arguments for replacing Lee with David but defending is not one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Stand Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 The epitome being the tough-tackling David Noble presumably? There may be sound arguments for replacing Lee with David but defending is not one of them. A while back (when Noble wasn't in the team) many people demanded we bring him back on the strength of his great performances at the end of last season (playing wide right). Most people think our problem this season is a chronic lack of width. The reason Noble is currently playing poorly is bacause he is out of position playing wide right. Eh ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheese Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 So now you have run out of reasons why he should be playing, you don't want to play anymore Umh no, that's not what I said. You haven't come up with any new reasons why he shouldn't be playing - I'm bored with having to repeat myself - just because the hysterical mob say the same things over and over again does not make it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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