Lee Johnson

[Frenchay Red]

Living in Canada so don't get to see the lads play much except occasionally on Setanta. But I was at the Sheffield Utd game at the end of last season (the weekend after we blew automatic promotion with a shocking Route 1 first half against Stoke). I have to say that one of the best two players on the pitch that day was Gary Speed. Over 6 feet, big and strong, dominated the park, great target for setpieces and dangerous with his head and feet. At 39 would eat Lee Johnson for breakfast. Why couldn't we get someone like that who would be a great dressing room asset at the moment ? (For the answer read on)

The other - I'm sorry to say - was Nick Carle. His crime was that - besides body strength - he had flair and upset GJ's cosy dressing room. He's also scored more goals for Palace this season than LJ and they are higher than us in the league.

Sorry to say this but Steve L made a big mistake giving GJ a 5 year deal. It's made him untouchable and complacent and lost Steve L all leverage. How - for example - can he quietly tell GJ the necessary message - that LJ has to go...?

Gary is in danger of coming across as a bit of a bully. The sort of manager who does very well at motivating and building a team out of the young, the impressionable and the easily dominated. It's OK as long as he's in charge of and surrounded by weaker personalities like Maynard or his son. But - unlike say..Colin - he can't cope with and will always shy away from handling the bigger stars like a Speed ..or a Carle..or even a Trundle. I wasn't a big Marcus Stewart fan but he was actually a great example of GJ's managerial limitations. The Meteb and Mifsud episodes should have rung the warning bells for Steve L again. The man can't cope with and isn't respected by the kind of players we need. Unless he can change - doubtful - he's already reached the end of his limitations.

You will only prosper in the Championship - let alone the Premier - with quality players. Quality players sadly do have egos and will be paid more than the manager. The manager has to be able to cope with that - and MANAGE them ! Without those stars we are and will remain a team of colourless journeymen resorting to Route 1. Last year's play-offs were the high-water mark. We may eke out a couple of seasons in the Championship then we will be back to the familiar surroundings of League 1. Enjoy. Hope the new stadium gets started before that happens cos it never will be otherwise...

Maybe the further away you are, the clearer things appear!

Excellent post!

[dezgimed]

Living in Canada so don't get to see the lads play much except occasionally on Setanta. But I was at the Sheffield Utd game at the end of last season (the weekend after we blew automatic promotion with a shocking Route 1 first half against Stoke). I have to say that one of the best two players on the pitch that day was Gary Speed. Over 6 feet, big and strong, dominated the park, great target for setpieces and dangerous with his head and feet. At 39 would eat Lee Johnson for breakfast. Why couldn't we get someone like that who would be a great dressing room asset at the moment ? (For the answer read on)

The other - I'm sorry to say - was Nick Carle. His crime was that - besides body strength - he had flair and upset GJ's cosy dressing room. He's also scored more goals for Palace this season than LJ and they are higher than us in the league.

Sorry to say this but Steve L made a big mistake giving GJ a 5 year deal. It's made him untouchable and complacent and lost Steve L all leverage. How - for example - can he quietly tell GJ the necessary message - that LJ has to go...?

Gary is in danger of coming across as a bit of a bully. The sort of manager who does very well at motivating and building a team out of the young, the impressionable and the easily dominated. It's OK as long as he's in charge of and surrounded by weaker personalities like Maynard or his son. But - unlike say..Colin - he can't cope with and will always shy away from handling the bigger stars like a Speed ..or a Carle..or even a Trundle. I wasn't a big Marcus Stewart fan but he was actually a great example of GJ's managerial limitations. The Meteb and Mifsud episodes should have rung the warning bells for Steve L again. The man can't cope with and isn't respected by the kind of players we need. Unless he can change - doubtful - he's already reached the end of his limitations.

You will only prosper in the Championship - let alone the Premier - with quality players. Quality players sadly do have egos and will be paid more than the manager. The manager has to be able to cope with that - and MANAGE them ! Without those stars we are and will remain a team of colourless journeymen resorting to Route 1. Last year's play-offs were the high-water mark. We may eke out a couple of seasons in the Championship then we will be back to the familiar surroundings of League 1. Enjoy. Hope the new stadium gets started before that happens cos it never will be otherwise...

You're on the other side of the world and have a better understanding of the situation than alot of fans I'd wager. Well put.

[cheese]

Have you?

Yep. Back of beyond.

[cheese]

Living in Canada so don't get to see the lads play much except occasionally on Setanta. But I was at the Sheffield Utd game at the end of last season (the weekend after we blew automatic promotion with a shocking Route 1 first half against Stoke). I have to say that one of the best two players on the pitch that day was Gary Speed. Over 6 feet, big and strong, dominated the park, great target for setpieces and dangerous with his head and feet. At 39 would eat Lee Johnson for breakfast. Why couldn't we get someone like that who would be a great dressing room asset at the moment ? (For the answer read on)

The other - I'm sorry to say - was Nick Carle. His crime was that - besides body strength - he had flair and upset GJ's cosy dressing room. He's also scored more goals for Palace this season than LJ and they are higher than us in the league.

Sorry to say this but Steve L made a big mistake giving GJ a 5 year deal. It's made him untouchable and complacent and lost Steve L all leverage. How - for example - can he quietly tell GJ the necessary message - that LJ has to go...?

Gary is in danger of coming across as a bit of a bully. The sort of manager who does very well at motivating and building a team out of the young, the impressionable and the easily dominated. It's OK as long as he's in charge of and surrounded by weaker personalities like Maynard or his son. But - unlike say..Colin - he can't cope with and will always shy away from handling the bigger stars like a Speed ..or a Carle..or even a Trundle. I wasn't a big Marcus Stewart fan but he was actually a great example of GJ's managerial limitations. The Meteb and Mifsud episodes should have rung the warning bells for Steve L again. The man can't cope with and isn't respected by the kind of players we need. Unless he can change - doubtful - he's already reached the end of his limitations.

You will only prosper in the Championship - let alone the Premier - with quality players. Quality players sadly do have egos and will be paid more than the manager. The manager has to be able to cope with that - and MANAGE them ! Without those stars we are and will remain a team of colourless journeymen resorting to Route 1. Last year's play-offs were the high-water mark. We may eke out a couple of seasons in the Championship then we will be back to the familiar surroundings of League 1. Enjoy. Hope the new stadium gets started before that happens cos it never will be otherwise...

More opinion dressed up as fact - and so off target it could be a Nick Carle attempt at goal from last season.

[dezgimed]

More opinion dressed up as fact - and so off target it could be a Nick Carle attempt at goal from last season.

See alot of Carles performances did you?

Long drive from Leicester.

[cheese]

See alot of Carles performances did you?

Long drive from Leicester.

I saw enough thanks. And yes, it is a long drive from Leicester - it takes me 2 hours 45 minutes - thanks for your concern.

[Frenchay Red]

More opinion dressed up as fact - and so off target it could be a Nick Carle attempt at goal from last season.

Which is no more or less than you (and everyone else on here) is offering, is it not?

[cheese]

Which is no more or less than you (and everyone else on here) is offering, is it not?

Nope. Quite a few have an opinion and make it clear that it's an opinion and not state it as fact.

[kingswood red]

No, we're all bored with it now.

You have contributed a lot of posts since you posted this earlier today on this subject, so you weren't bored after all were you?

[dezgimed]

Nope. Quite a few have an opinion and make it clear that it's an opinion and not state it as fact.

I don't believe he did state it as fact.

:noexpression:

[Frenchay Red]

Nope. Quite a few have an opinion and make it clear that it's an opinion and not state it as fact.

I can't be bothered to get into a debate about semantics, but for what it's worth I read the Canadian poster's piece as his opinion and not hard facts. And, again for what it's worth I thought he made some interesting points.

[cheese]

You have contributed a lot of posts since you posted this earlier today on this subject, so you weren't bored after all were you?

Oh I am - believe me. It's just that the hysterical mob seem to think they've won the argument if no-one posts the alternative view.

[kingswood red]

Oh I am - believe me. It's just that the hysterical mob seem to think they've won the argument if no-one posts the alternative view.

'Hysterical mob' or alternative view?

[cheese]

I don't believe he did state it as fact.

:noexpression:

Why couldn't we get someone like that who would be a great dressing room asset at the moment ? (For the answer read on)

The answer follows - not "I think the reasons may be"?

His crime was that - besides body strength - he had flair and upset GJ's cosy dressing room. He's also scored more goals for Palace this season than LJ and they are higher than us in the league.

Where's the evidence for this upset cosy dressing room?

Sorry to say this but Steve L made a big mistake giving GJ a 5 year deal. It's made him untouchable and complacent and lost Steve L all leverage. How - for example - can he quietly tell GJ the necessary message - that LJ has to go...?

Who says LJ has to go? Who says that SL thinks that's even necessary?

Need I go on?

[dezgimed]

Need I go on?

Its his opinion and interpretation of current events. Pedant.

[cheese]

Its his opinion and interpretation of current events. Pedant.

So, that's like saying some of it is made up then?

[cinker]

I know what people are thinking not another Lee Johnson thread, however ive always liked Lee and regarded him as one of the best footablers at the club.

However this season i really really have struggled to see what the guy offers, every week i try and focus on him and see what he really does in a game, watching him on tv last night really hit home the fact that he really does not bring anything to the table. He is not dynamic he dosnt tackle he dosnt even create chances and thats what he is bloody there for!

We are crying out for another Elliot in midfiled, this would realive pressure from the wings and would make every one feel a lot less under pressure, with Lee in the side especially in a 4-4-2 it really is like carrying a passenger and at this level you cant afford to do that. Leon Britton at Swansea is what Lee Johnson should be, they are both of similar height and bulid but the difference is Britton is dymanic he runs at defenders and actually Creates chances.

I don't know why GJ keeps picking him. i don't believe all this father son crap he can obiously see somethiing we cant but after last night i reeally don't know what it is?

I'm sorry but he has to go, its nothing to do with gj being his dad its simply to do with th fact he does not do his job and that is to create chances, another player in the mould of Elliot needs to be brought in..

Fair comment. However, the people who are really having a go against Johnno should not be focused on the player. He is trying his best. Its the manager who picks him and who sets the team strategy. Having said that give GJ the opportunity to turn things round. If he is half the manager that most people says he is he will turn it round... surely

[Riaz]

See alot of Carles performances did you?

Long drive from Leicester.

Nick Carle certainly had some good games, but only one or two - compared to 30 odd good games from Lee Johnson - in that season.

[dezgimed]

Nick Carle certainly had some good games, but only one or two - compared to 30 odd good games from Lee Johnson - in that season.

Just depends how we all view the games I guess.

[Riaz]

Just depends how we all view the games I guess.

TOP OF THE LEAGUE - says it all - although alot of you LJ basher's will ignore that

thats what lets you down - at a time where critizism is probabaly deserving - it will taken as 'having another go'

[dezgimed]

TOP OF THE LEAGUE - says it all - although alot of you LJ basher's will ignore that

thats what lets you down - at a time where critizism is probabaly deserving - it will taken as 'having another go'

You keep saying that, but its purely coincedental and doesnt take into account dozens of other contributing factors.

It is impossible to test whether LJ's inclusion directly affected performances. Although you could look at the fact that he has been used this season and we arent top of the league.

[Nibor]

TOP OF THE LEAGUE - says it all - although alot of you LJ basher's will ignore that

thats what lets you down - at a time where critizism is probabaly deserving - it will taken as 'having another go'

I'd suggest that the team's current league position and form is far more relevant than the league position at a specific point in time over 6 months ago.

If you look back over this thread there's marked lack of anybody saying "Lee Johnson should be in the side because he does x, y or z really well" or even presenting an argument for why he should start.

That tells me that even those leaping (hysterically!) to his defence find it hard to justify his selection right now.

[Bris Red]

TOP OF THE LEAGUE - says it all - although alot of you LJ basher's will ignore that

thats what lets you down - at a time where critizism is probabaly deserving - it will taken as 'having another go'

I'm not a lee j basher and like i said in my first post i actually think technically he is a good player he has for example an excellent touch. and probably one of the best touches at the club, but you need more than a good touch to be affecttive especially as a playing CM

But watching Leon Britton for Swansea really highlighted Lee johnsons isnt doing enough this season, Britton is like ive siad the same heght and bulid as Lee Johnson but he runs at defenders and actuallly does his job and that is to Create chamces for the fowards and Lee Johsnond dosnt do that evebn when we were top last season he didnt have many assits or he didnt score many FACT.

I accept hes not going to win tackles and thats far enough cuse hes small, again i accept hes not going to win headers cuse his small but as a central midfilder you have to then make up for this by being dynamic and creating things. At the moment Lee J simply dosnt do enough, if you add to this that he donst head tackle or battle when things get tough then i think you will agree its time we either try Noble in there or we go out and buy somebody.

The simple fact of the matter is he donst affect a game enough and this is crucial when you are suppost to be the one the actually creates things, look at Deco (ok he is in a diferent league to Lee J but affectivly he plays the same role) Deco creates things he runs at defenders amd looks dangerous, Lee J does not have this ability and this is why i think its time he moved on.

[Riaz]

You keep saying that, but its purely coincedental and doesnt take into account dozens of other contributing factors.

It is impossible to test whether LJ's inclusion directly affected performances.

HE PLAYED CENTRAL MIDFIELD!!! of course he directly affected perfomances!! if he aint good enough and he played in central midfield, there would be no way we would even be near the top.

Purely cocoincedental? at your convenience! your argument for not being good enough is getting ridiculous.

Although you could look at the fact that he has been used this season and we arent top of the league.

He may not be playing well this season - I wont argue about that, fair comment. Its when people say he cant cut it at this level, when he proved he was more than good enough last season

[redordead1]

Yes I agree he backs off rather than bottling tackles, not a great way to defend but better than bottling.

Dennis Wise was a 'terrier' of a midfielder so the comparison is not a fair one to either player. I agree smaller players do make it at the highest level but not many of note recently.

Leon Britton - 1st season in the CCC - jury out on his adaptability at this level surely?

Lower league midfielders may be just as atheletic / tougher than CCC players but as I stated CCC midfielders tend to have more technical ability hence the step up in class for a smaller player is more of a challenge.

LJ excelled (depending on your opinion) at a lower level due to his speed of thought and better reading of the game along with better technical ability than the opposition.

Exceptions to the rule do and will always exist but look at the best central midfielders in the world today and you will see a 6ft, atheletic player with at least 4 of the following - fantastic vision, passing, tackling and heading ability along with a ability to score goals.

Think you'll find that there has been a bit of a trend in the last year or so towards more pure footballing midfielders and away from just relying on the pure athleticism of the 6ft beasts that were around. Spain in the Euros went a long way to bucking the trend. Fabregas, Xavi, Andres Iniesta and Villa- fabulous footballers the lot of them. All of which would run rings around the likes of Papa Bouba Diop.

My point is this- if you have a great footballing brain and the vision, pace and technique then you're going to be alright. Howver, I'm not sure that Johnson has enough of these qualities to compensate.

Anyway, gotta go just thought about Bouba Diop in the Cup. Taxi for Johnson!

[Riaz]

I'd suggest that the team's current league position and form is far more relevant than the league position at a specific point in time over 6 months ago.

If you look back over this thread there's marked lack of anybody saying "Lee Johnson should be in the side because he does x, y or z really well" or even presenting an argument for why he should start.

That tells me that even those leaping (hysterically!) to his defence find it hard to justify his selection right now.

I'm not a lee j basher and like i said in my first post i actually think technically he is a good player he has for example an excellent touch. and probably one of the best touches at the club, but you need more than a good touch to be affecttive especially as a playing CM

But watching Leon Britton for Swansea really highlighted Lee johnsons isnt doing enough this season, Britton is like ive siad the same heght and bulid as Lee Johnson but he runs at defenders and actuallly does his job and that is to Create chamces for the fowards and Lee Johsnond dosnt do that evebn when we were top last season he didnt have many assits or he didnt score many FACT.

I accept hes not going to win tackles and thats far enough cuse hes small, again i accept hes not going to win headers cuse his small but as a central midfilder you have to then make up for this by being dynamic and creating things. At the moment Lee J simply dosnt do enough, if you add to this that he donst head tackle or battle when things get tough then i think you will agree its time we either try Noble in there or we go out and buy somebody.

The simple fact of the matter is he donst affect a game enough and this is crucial when you are suppost to be the one the actually creates things, look at Deco (ok he is in a diferent league to Lee J but affectivly he plays the same role) Deco creates things he runs at defenders amd looks dangerous, Lee J does not have this ability and this is why i think its time he moved on.

I'm not defending him this season - I'm all for giving Noble a go.

The point i'm getting at is that he is good enough. but not at the mo

[NickJ]

TOP OF THE LEAGUE - says it all - although alot of you LJ basher's will ignore that

You are absolutely 100% spot on with that Riaz and no sane person can argue any differently.

However - they say the best time to strengthen the squad is when you are doing well and on the way up - not least because it is easier to attract better players.

I've always thought that was harsh and unfair on the players that got you there.

However, it is a fact of life and of football, look how GJ has rightly jettisoned Russell, Jevons, Showumni et al when they were no longer capable of improving with the rest of the team.

GJ no doubt thought he was doing just that when he bought Carle, a central midfield player. Carle was criticized by some when he first came, although many, myself included, pointed out he was being used in an alien position wide on the right. But that was fair enough, why should he walk into a side in which Elliott and Johnson had done very well thankyou.

When Johnson got injured, Carle still didnt get used in the middle initially - if I remember, Skuse played a few games. When Carle was eventually started in the middle, I feel we began to see his true potential. I think many other people did too.

It was therefore an absolute bombshell when GJ decided he wanted to sell him - and I would guess that it was not only the supporters scratching their heads, but some of the more ambitious players too.

If you listed LJ's attributes, in my opinion, you could easily say Carle had those in equal measure, when played in his best position. But with other attributes as well.

Its too late now of course, but in my opinion some of the criticism of LJ, much of it unfair or at least exaggerated, can be traced back to frustration at the departure of Carle, which is coming out now that we are not doing so well.

Of course, GJ may well be right eventually in the ends if not the means, as he has been so many times before.

I personally think LJ has reached his limit, and that for everyones benefit he should move on. However if GJ sticks to his guns and we eventually go up with with LJ playing a major part in that, I would be absolutely thrilled for him.

[dezgimed]

HE PLAYED CENTRAL MIDFIELD!!! of course he directly affected perfomances!! if he aint good enough and he played in central midfield, there would be no way we would even be near the top.

Purely cocoincedental? at your convenience! your argument for not being good enough is getting ridiculous.

Directly? In the same season that our football was better, McIndoe was a star, Elliott was a star, our defense was awesome...plenty of factors MAY have carried him last season specifically, but we'll never know.

You cant prove it isnt coincedental so its a circular argument.

Err, whats getting ridiculous? My argument re. LJ hasnt changed, what are you referring to?

[redordead1]

Living in Canada so don't get to see the lads play much except occasionally on Setanta. But I was at the Sheffield Utd game at the end of last season (the weekend after we blew automatic promotion with a shocking Route 1 first half against Stoke). I have to say that one of the best two players on the pitch that day was Gary Speed. Over 6 feet, big and strong, dominated the park, great target for setpieces and dangerous with his head and feet. At 39 would eat Lee Johnson for breakfast. Why couldn't we get someone like that who would be a great dressing room asset at the moment ? (For the answer read on)

The other - I'm sorry to say - was Nick Carle. His crime was that - besides body strength - he had flair and upset GJ's cosy dressing room. He's also scored more goals for Palace this season than LJ and they are higher than us in the league.

Sorry to say this but Steve L made a big mistake giving GJ a 5 year deal. It's made him untouchable and complacent and lost Steve L all leverage. How - for example - can he quietly tell GJ the necessary message - that LJ has to go...?

Gary is in danger of coming across as a bit of a bully. The sort of manager who does very well at motivating and building a team out of the young, the impressionable and the easily dominated. It's OK as long as he's in charge of and surrounded by weaker personalities like Maynard or his son. But - unlike say..Colin - he can't cope with and will always shy away from handling the bigger stars like a Speed ..or a Carle..or even a Trundle. I wasn't a big Marcus Stewart fan but he was actually a great example of GJ's managerial limitations. The Meteb and Mifsud episodes should have rung the warning bells for Steve L again. The man can't cope with and isn't respected by the kind of players we need. Unless he can change - doubtful - he's already reached the end of his limitations.

You will only prosper in the Championship - let alone the Premier - with quality players. Quality players sadly do have egos and will be paid more than the manager. The manager has to be able to cope with that - and MANAGE them ! Without those stars we are and will remain a team of colourless journeymen resorting to Route 1. Last year's play-offs were the high-water mark. We may eke out a couple of seasons in the Championship then we will be back to the familiar surroundings of League 1. Enjoy. Hope the new stadium gets started before that happens cos it never will be otherwise...

Spot on post- think you'll find a lot of people in agreement with the vast majority of that.

[Riaz]

Directly? In the same season that our football was better, McIndoe was a star, Elliott was a star, our defense was awesome...plenty of factors MAY have carried him last season specifically, but we'll never know.

You cant prove it isnt coincedental so its a circular argument.

Err, whats getting ridiculous? My argument re. LJ hasnt changed, what are you referring to?

So Man Utd, Chelsea Liverpool or Arsenal would still be a top four club if they had say Craig Disley in midfield or any midfielder you can think of who aint good enough?