Gj /lj ... This Father / Son Thing

[bh red]

Well the Mirror gave him MOM the other week and I think he was MOM in the Evening Post, according to a City fan, within the last couple of games.

But hey those opinions don't concur with yours so they must be wrong. Mustn't they?

The evening post vote counts for nothing whether high or low because it's done by a fan, christ, he even got a 8 from the coventry game which says it all, plus the general reporting from the evening post is garbage as everyone knows, but hey, it's great when it suits them I suppose.

as for the Mirror I think that says more abotu the paper than it does anything as the rating was from the reading game in which he was possibly our worst player alongside Orr, neither of them could keep the ball and on a number of occasions he gifted reading the ball in midfield, the only reason he probably wasn't subbed in that game as with a couple of other games recently was due to Skuse's injury problems and lack of other midfield options on the bench for unknown reasons.

[NickJ]

In my opinion, it isn't a possibility, no.

The implication of calling Lee a League Two player is, that we could take any player from the two divisions below ours and we would be a stronger team at best and no weaker at worst, as far as I can see.

I think that is wrong and irrational.

You're right that it's probably not resolvable as it's unproveable. Just as I could say England would have won the World Cup if Lee Johnson had played every game for them. It's wrong, but has to be accepted as a possibility, for the same reasons.

You do yourself and Lee a disservice with your last sentence. It isnt wrong because, as you have accepted, its unprovable.

I think that if only City had signed me as a lad we'd be a Premier League force by now. Thats equally unprovable one way or other. Actually even I have to accept it is wrong.

Just as, it isnt wrong or irrational, which you seem to state as fact, when it isnt, to say that an alternative player to Lee would make us stronger or no worse. Its just a view. That is my point.

[bh red]

That's an acceptable viewpoint but it's not like we've been lurking in the shadows for the last few years. We've all seen the Premier League scouts at our games yet there has been a serious lack of bids from these clubs for our players. You would think that if the remaining players are so good as to carry a League 2 standard central midfielder that the mediocre Premier league clubs would be falling over themselves to hand us their ill-gotten millions in an attempt to persuade us to part with them.

yes and if you look at our midfielders, Elliott has attacted alot of interest with big money bids due to his midfield ability and last season being the central midfield pretty much on his own, until Carle and Noble actually got games.

as for the league 2 quotes, even I have to agree that Seend is talking crap on that point, I feel Lee is a poor player, but he's better than league 2, for me he's somewhere in between being a top league one midfielder and a below average championship midfielder.

he was good enought to get us promtoted however I feel like others who have since left in Russell, Enoch and Jevons he's not good enough to make us a serious contendor for promotion from this division.

[bh red]

You're overlooking the two games against Plymouth and Cardiff in between Watford and Southampton, that he missed due to injury, then?

Presumably because we lost them both and they don't fit in with your argument.

yes but he'd played in the defeats and draws before and afterwards so it's a serious case of we'd been playing badly and not getting resultsbefore he'd even got injured.

[NickJ]

Okay they suggest the opposite is true.

Suggest maybe, but irrefutable fact - no.

That is why SR is entitled to his view. Nobody can prove him wrong, just as nobody can prove you right.

Its an overall zero sum game for Johnson and Johnson.

At one extreme you think LJ is an unrecognized Gerrard, which makes his dad an average at best manager lucky to have such a loyal son.

At the other, LJ is shite, lucky to have such a loyal dad whose career is going great but held back by family being put first.

My view is LJ isnt shite but could do a lot better, but his dad is a superb manager.

I suspect many other LJ critics feel the same, which is something of a dichotomy.

Explained probably by the fact that LJ seems incapable of being dropped no matter his form, which takes us full circle, just for a change.

[bh red]

Explained probably by the fact that LJ seems incapable of being dropped no matter his form, which takes us full circle, just for a change.

which is what it all boils down to......

[cheese]

yes and if you look at our midfielders, Elliott has attacted alot of interest with big money bids due to his midfield ability and last season being the central midfield pretty much on his own, until Carle and Noble actually got games.

as for the league 2 quotes, even I have to agree that Seend is talking crap on that point, I feel Lee is a poor player, but he's better than league 2, for me he's somewhere in between being a top league one midfielder and a below average championship midfielder.

he was good enought to get us promtoted however I feel like others who have since left in Russell, Enoch and Jevons he's not good enough to make us a serious contendor for promotion from this division.

Which premier league clubs made big money bids for Elliott then? And you say let's look at our other midfielders but then just mention 1 (Elliott) that gets regualr games.

Don't be too hard on Seend - his comments are his contribution to comic relief. He's probably getting sponsored on the number of replies he gets.

[bh red]

Which premier league clubs made big money bids for Elliott then? And you say let's look at our other midfielders but then just mention 1 (Elliott) that gets regualr games.

Don't be too hard on Seend - his comments are his contribution to comic relief. He's probably getting sponsored on the number of replies he gets.

where did I say that had? it's well known that Portsmouth enquired and that Wolves bid big money, the point is he's actually been looked at

Elliott is the only other central midfielder who actually gets games regularly so is obviously the only other midfielder who could be looked at, though Carle was here 5mins and promptly got snapped up elsewhere so obviously did something right,

haven't seen anyone make big bids for Johnson and too be honest I doubt we will.

Not being hard on Seend at all, I agree with alot of his points but disagreed with that one, but at least him and others defending Johnson actually have a view point, unlike others who are just like a Member of the Shadow Cabinet in Parliement who's only view is to disagree with others people for the sake of it without actually having independant thoughts.

[red man dan]

Not being hard on Seend at all, I agree with alot of his points but disagreed with that one, but at least him and others defending Johnson actually have a view point, unlike others who are just like a Member of the Shadow Cabinet in Parliement who's only view is to disagree with others people for the sake of it without actually having independant thoughts.

Please may people continue to have 'independant' thoughts even if they are bull**** but aren't bull**** because aparrently nothing is exempt from the burden of truth. Football isnt a science. Not much is fact in the game, except end results. The rest is common sense formed on the basis of what seems most likely, it seems likely to me that LJ has been integral to the good fortunes of City's last couple of years, its not fact, but to suggest otherwise would appear to be ignoring the facts, those being the results which we have established ARE facts.

[SE23Red]

Even I did'nt think he was a key player, but he is.

Of course, Seend and co will probabaly convieniently ignore the facts/results.

Well you've been proved right so far. Like all good conspiracy theorists ashtonsmate finds conjecture a much safer hunting ground than dealing with the facts head-on.

[bully]

Lets look at the results with and without LJ in the side.....

In the Championship our record is

LJ Starts

P 76 W 36 D 21 L 17

Points Avr 1.74

Without LJ

P 13 W 3 D 4 L 6

Points Avr 1.00

Breaking that down

Last seasons point avr WITH 1.74 WITHOUT 1.11

This seasons point avr WITH 1.67 WITHOUT 0.66

So the Results without LJ suffer. And Gary Johnson's view that LJ is a KEY player for us seems to be correct

Even I did'nt think he was a key player, but he is.

Of course, Seend and co will probabaly convieniently ignore the facts/results.

Riaz

I think you have a good rational opinion of LJ rather than the ranters on either side of the fence, so when you say he's not played that well lately people should listen.

I think the whole point about the LJ debate, is that the club has never appeared to sign anyone who can compete with him, who is going to be regarded as a serious alternative.

He's the only 'water carrier' we have I think, and unless GJ styles the team around his sons abilities (surely not) then someone better at the job shoud be considered - I see it as the most important role in the team, so arguably he should be the best player.

LJ even said himself that he only played '15-20' good games last season - he's a professional footballer so should know better than any of us shouldn't he?

If we don't have another person who specialises in that role, then if LJ is out, GJ either changes style or put a square peg into a round hole.

Not surprising therefore if our results minus LJ don't compare with those when he's in the team.

I don't rate him that highly, think that his dad does favour him in terms of tolerating below par performances or bringing in someone who does the same job, but accept that GJ has earned the right to pick whatever team he wishes.

[cheese]

where did I say that had? it's well known that Portsmouth enquired and that Wolves bid big money, the point is he's actually been looked at

Elliott is the only other central midfielder who actually gets games regularly so is obviously the only other midfielder who could be looked at, though Carle was here 5mins and promptly got snapped up elsewhere so obviously did something right,

haven't seen anyone make big bids for Johnson and too be honest I doubt we will.

Not being hard on Seend at all, I agree with alot of his points but disagreed with that one, but at least him and others defending Johnson actually have a view point, unlike others who are just like a Member of the Shadow Cabinet in Parliement who's only view is to disagree with others people for the sake of it without actually having independant thoughts.

Haven't seen anyone make big bids for: McIndoe, Carey, Fontaine, Basso, McAllister, Sproule, Skuse, Noble etc etc. So your point about bids is what exactly?

[Economou]

Haven't seen anyone make big bids for: McIndoe, Carey, Fontaine, Basso, McAllister, Sproule, Skuse, Noble etc etc. So your point about bids is what exactly?

Cheese, don't drag yourself down to his level, it's not worth it. Best policy I reckon is to ignore him, difficult on a forum I admit.

[edson]

The evening post vote counts for nothing whether high or low because it's done by a fan

So, a fan's opinion counts for nothing? Does that mean I can just discount your opinions in your following post, then?:

typical response over-react response from another johnson yesman who doesn't actually answer the question, the difference is the players you have mentioned have all had games recently where they have taken the headlines for decent performances, Orr was fantastic at Brum, Jamie Mac excellent against in midweek, McIndoe has been constantly one of our best players since we joined the championship, Sproule has been mixed but scored a blinder against southampton and Maynard is our joint top scorer.

what highlights from Lee this season??? when has he played a blinder?

Or are you not a fan?

[bh red]

So, a fan's opinion counts for nothing? Does that mean I can just discount your opinions in your following post, then?:

no the point is that you can't make a big deal of evening post ratings as they can be written by anyone and are generally done by a different person each game without any continutity? based on tuesday's game did you feel Lee put in a 8 out of 10 performance that he was some how given?

personally I find that laughable

[bh red]

Haven't seen anyone make big bids for: McIndoe, Carey, Fontaine, Basso, McAllister, Sproule, Skuse, Noble etc etc. So your point about bids is what exactly?

I didn't bring up the point about bids was merely responding to another comment that other midfielders have received interst.

[bh red]

Lets look at the results with and without LJ in the side.....

In the Championship our record is

LJ Starts

P 76 W 36 D 21 L 17

Points Avr 1.74

Without LJ

P 13 W 3 D 4 L 6

Points Avr 1.00

Breaking that down

Last seasons point avr WITH 1.74 WITHOUT 1.11

This seasons point avr WITH 1.67 WITHOUT 0.66

So the Results without LJ suffer. And Gary Johnson's view that LJ is a KEY player for us seems to be correct

Even I did'nt think he was a key player, but he is.

Of course, Seend and co will probabaly convieniently ignore the facts/results.

it's all very well looking at that, but you have to look at the teams were playing at the times and the replacements that came into the team for Johnson,

Late Last Season we had a tough run in which was well commented on when the fixture list was brought out and it was always going to be tough games, where points were going to be hard to get, considering a number of those late season games were against the like of Stoke, Wolves, Sheffield U were always going to have a struggle in those games with players fit or not.

it also doesn't help that when Lee hasn't played that Gary Johnson then instead of doing the sensible thing in picking the alternative attacking midfielders such as Carle, Noble or Williams to play alongside Elliott or Skuse, that Gary then picks a defensive midfield alot of the time of Skuse AND Elliott that yourself have admited is a stupid move, happened last season and again this season.

Ironically for last season and earlier this season when Johnson wasn't playing I felt we played some of our best football and late last season with the midfield of Noble, Carle, Elliott and McIndoe our midfield looked it's strongest since Johnson took over, with Noble and Carle playing key parts in our play-off success due to their abiltiy to score and create.

Personally I find it very disapointing that we haven't seen a midfield pairing ALL SEASON of Williams and Skuse/Elliott, but hey, Lee Johnson is undropable regardless of form.

[SJC]

no the point is that you can't make a big deal of evening post ratings as they can be written by anyone and are generally done by a different person each game without any continutity? based on tuesday's game did you feel Lee put in a 8 out of 10 performance that he was some how given?

personally I find that laughable

Absolutely not, infact he was very poor on Tuesday. However he is not, nor has he been, poor on the whole - whether that be this season, last season, or his City career as a whole.

It continues to frustrate me that people cannot merely analyse a performance, rather entering games with pre-conceived favourties who they are all to ready to pounce on in the event of a misplaced pass or poorly timed tackle.

Before Christmas Marvin Elliot put in a succesion of distinctly average performances. Their was barely a negative mumour.

The undeniable truth is that people have their 'favourites' and are far more prone to overlook poor performances from those than that of any other player.

Lee Johnson is far from a 'favourite' and as such feels an exagerated and prolonged backlash anytime he puts in a poor performance.

[bh red]

Absolutely not, infact he was very poor on Tuesday. However he is not, nor has he been, poor on the whole - whether that be this season, last season, or his City career as a whole.

It continues to frustrate me that people cannot merely analyse a performance, rather entering games with pre-conceived favourties who they are all to ready to pounce on in the event of a misplaced pass or poorly timed tackle.

Before Christmas Marvin Elliot put in a succesion of distinctly average performances. Their was barely a negative mumour.

The undeniable truth is that people have their 'favourites' and are far more prone to overlook poor performances from those than that of any other player.

Lee Johnson is far from a 'favourite' and as such feels an exagerated and prolonged backlash anytime he puts in a poor performance.

to be honest since Skuse has come in Elliott is going to have to wait to get his place back in the team for a while

agree though abuot the favourites, and to be honest in the past that's especially been the case because their has always been a star player, currently I'd say there is no stars and on a personally level the only "fav's" I've got are Murray and Carey but that's just because they are long serving players more than their abiltiy, after that we just have a squad of hard workers and I think a timess nearly all the squad will get a hammering in one way or another, unfortunately there will always be a couple of players in any squad that some see as "weaker links" in the squad and unfortunately if some of them never get dropped regardless of form, then it's always going to create an issue with people, exactly the same thing that happens to LJ happened with Lee Peacock a few years back in that he'd have a terrible run of form but wouldn't get dropped.

Unfortunately the managers will always have favorites as well and will overlook players who sometimes aren't pulling their weight or just maybe aren't good enough on a consistant basis.