Gj /lj ... This Father / Son Thing

[headhunter]

The LJ debate rambles on and on. Somone said to me the other day if the untouchable status of LJ is the price we have to pay for having GJ as manager then so be it and, on reflection, I couldn't really argue with that.

I am a father of two grown up daughters so, unless I am blessed with grandsons one day, I will never have the chance to see my boy play the game I have followed for over 40 years [25/3/1967 City 3 Birmingham 1]. I have many friends, however, who do have sons who play football and in one or two cases the dad runs the team. One in particular I think puts into focus what I consider the root cause of this animosity towards GJ.

My mates boy actually moved to another club because his dad gave him such a HARD time compared to the rest of the boys. His expectation was there for his boy to be the best [the boy was quite good rather than playing under duress to make dad happy] in the team and if his form dipped he was dropped, simple as.

The problem with LJ is that he is not a bad footballer but he has neither the skill or the physique to be at the level he now finds himself. Many people, myself included, see a player who is an automatic selection regardless of form and, because he IS the manager's son he will get more stick than if he wasn't. On the rare occasions he is substituted it is a token gesture rather than an attempt to change the pattern of play.

GJ often goes on about players affecting the game, LJ does just not do that enough and I still thing are goalscoring problem stems from the service from midfield.

When Elliott & Skuse are fit who is going to make way?

[Rich i e]

The LJ debate rambles on and on. Somone said to me the other day if the untouchable status of LJ is the price we have to pay for having GJ as manager then so be it and, on reflection, I couldn't really argue with that.

I am a father of two grown up daughters so, unless I am blessed with grandsons one day, I will never have the chance to see my boy play the game I have followed for over 40 years [25/3/1967 City 3 Birmingham 1]. I have many friends, however, who do have sons who play football and in one or two cases the dad runs the team. One in particular I think puts into focus what I consider the root cause of this animosity towards GJ.

My mates boy actually moved to another club because his dad gave him such a HARD time compared to the rest of the boys. His expectation was there for his boy to be the best [the boy was quite good rather than playing under duress to make dad happy] in the team and if his form dipped he was dropped, simple as.

The problem with LJ is that he is not a bad footballer but he has neither the skill or the physique to be at the level he now finds himself. Many people, myself included, see a player who is an automatic selection regardless of form and, because he IS the manager's son he will get more stick than if he wasn't. On the rare occasions he is substituted it is a token gesture rather than an attempt to change the pattern of play.

GJ often goes on about players affecting the game, LJ does just not do that enough and I still thing are goalscoring problem stems from the service from midfield.

When Elliott & Skuse are fit who is going to make way?

Regardless of the son/manager thing, it's a team game, and our team ain't done so bad with LJ in the centre of its midlfield. You can argue on individuals, and maybe he ain't the best midfielder in the land, but I'd say our results are pretty good and he is in an important position within that team.

In years past, I'd have never picked Robbie Turner for his out and out ability, but he complimented the team, especially Bob Taylor. Sometimes, it just works.

[Guest DanC]

Has anyone actually had the guile to go up to GJ and ask him why he picks his son week in week out?

[Donkeeebles]

The LJ debate rambles on and on. Somone said to me the other day if the untouchable status of LJ is the price we have to pay for having GJ as manager then so be it and, on reflection, I couldn't really argue with that.

I am a father of two grown up daughters so, unless I am blessed with grandsons one day, I will never have the chance to see my boy play the game I have followed for over 40 years [25/3/1967 City 3 Birmingham 1]. I have many friends, however, who do have sons who play football and in one or two cases the dad runs the team. One in particular I think puts into focus what I consider the root cause of this animosity towards GJ.

My mates boy actually moved to another club because his dad gave him such a HARD time compared to the rest of the boys. His expectation was there for his boy to be the best [the boy was quite good rather than playing under duress to make dad happy] in the team and if his form dipped he was dropped, simple as.

The problem with LJ is that he is not a bad footballer but he has neither the skill or the physique to be at the level he now finds himself. Many people, myself included, see a player who is an automatic selection regardless of form and, because he IS the manager's son he will get more stick than if he wasn't. On the rare occasions he is substituted it is a token gesture rather than an attempt to change the pattern of play.

GJ often goes on about players affecting the game, LJ does just not do that enough and I still thing are goalscoring problem stems from the service from midfield.

When Elliott & Skuse are fit who is going to make way?

This is the bit i cannot get my head around and have used it several times as an argument against those who say he is only in the team because of his dad.

I believe that in a large majority of cases the son/daughter would have it tougher than all the others if their dad was in charge of a team they played for. Purely because its the first thing that is going to be thrown at them when things are not going well. I just cant believe that GJ would be any different especially considering this is a CCC team we are talking about with thousands of supporters.

Having said that i can understand to a degree why some people say this. Lj IMO is a better player than a lot give him credit for but i don't think he a certainty to play every week. Yet play every week is what he does and it does seem that no matter how poorly he plays he doesnt get dropped compaired to others who can have 1 poor game and be dropped! (The best example i can give for this is Weale who IMO did very well at the start of the season in the absence of Basso and yet found himself on the bench as soon as Basso was fit. Now i understand Basso is a great keeper but if Weale was playing well did he deserve to be dropped???)

I do think that GJ could help the sitution by maybe taking his son off now and again or maybe even leaving him out from time to time just to ease the pressure on LJ but he obviously feels that LJ gives the team something that others don't.

[gaz897]

The LJ debate rambles on and on. Somone said to me the other day if the untouchable status of LJ is the price we have to pay for having GJ as manager then so be it and, on reflection, I couldn't really argue with that.

I am a father of two grown up daughters so, unless I am blessed with grandsons one day, I will never have the chance to see my boy play the game I have followed for over 40 years [25/3/1967 City 3 Birmingham 1]. I have many friends, however, who do have sons who play football and in one or two cases the dad runs the team. One in particular I think puts into focus what I consider the root cause of this animosity towards GJ.

My mates boy actually moved to another club because his dad gave him such a HARD time compared to the rest of the boys. His expectation was there for his boy to be the best [the boy was quite good rather than playing under duress to make dad happy] in the team and if his form dipped he was dropped, simple as.

The problem with LJ is that he is not a bad footballer but he has neither the skill or the physique to be at the level he now finds himself. Many people, myself included, see a player who is an automatic selection regardless of form and, because he IS the manager's son he will get more stick than if he wasn't. On the rare occasions he is substituted it is a token gesture rather than an attempt to change the pattern of play.

GJ often goes on about players affecting the game, LJ does just not do that enough and I still thing are goalscoring problem stems from the service from midfield.

When Elliott & Skuse are fit who is going to make way?

Simple, when Elliot is fit LJ will be the last to make way. Good post.

[ooRya]

Gary Johnson has belief in a system...a certain way of playing a game. Lee Johnson, to my mind, is an intregal part of that system, and so is played in the team.

I don't think anyone can argue that the system that Gary likes to play is anything other than successful....his record speaks for itself.

I find it absolutely crazy that some on here suggest that Lee only plays because his Dad is the manager, and as such receives special treatment. Does anyone really think that Gary could get away with that, both during his time at Yeovil and in the time that he has been here? Does anyone seriously believe that someone such as Steve Lansdown would allow such a thing to happen, to the supposed detriment of the team?

It must be very hard to play in your "Dads' team", particularly when we're talking being in the spotlight of league football, and it must be extremely hard when you face constant criticism from certain quarters. Yet I have nothing but admiration for the way Lee conducts himself. He always gives 100%, he never tries to hide and will always offer himself to receive the ball, and he is always applauding the fans at the end of a game.

Hopefully, Lee will one day be replaced by a better player....same as I hope every player at BCFC will be replaced by someone better, and when that happens I will applaud Gary for making that change. Until that time Lee deserves the support of Bristol City fans. He does NOT deserve the constant slagging off that he gets on here!

[SE23Red]

Gary Johnson has belief in a system...a certain way of playing a game. Lee Johnson, to my mind, is an intregal part of that system, and so is played in the team.

I don't think anyone can argue that the system that Gary likes to play is anything other than successful....his record speaks for itself.

I find it absolutely crazy that some on here suggest that Lee only plays because his Dad is the manager, and as such receives special treatment. Does anyone really think that Gary could get away with that, both during his time at Yeovil and in the time that he has been here? Does anyone seriously believe that someone such as Steve Lansdown would allow such a thing to happen, to the supposed detriment of the team?

It must be very hard to play in your "Dads' team", particularly when we're talking being in the spotlight of league football, and it must be extremely hard when you face constant criticism from certain quarters. Yet I have nothing but admiration for the way Lee conducts himself. He always gives 100%, he never tries to hide and will always offer himself to receive the ball, and he is always applauding the fans at the end of a game.

Hopefully, Lee will one day be replaced by a better player....same as I hope every player at BCFC will be replaced by someone better, and when that happens I will applaud Gary for making that change. Until that time Lee deserves the support of Bristol City fans. He does NOT deserve the constant slagging off that he gets on here!

Well said!

But some will still prefer to hold the view that, in this most competitive of leagues, it is possible to compete with teams with budgets many times ours whilst playing someone at the heart of our team for no other reason than their family ties.

I hold GJ in very high regard - but if he is able to do this he truly is a miracle worker.

[Nibor]

I don't think GJ plays LJ because he's his son.

But equally I don't think LJ's contribution is anywhere near enough to warrant being a seemingly automatic selection.

He has a great mentality, is very fit, always makes himself available for a pass and can spread the ball around well but in my view he has some quite severe weaknesses in his game at this level that leave us struggling to compete in the middle of the pitch when we play two there.

I think Gavin Williams has shown more than enough to get a run in the middle of a 442 alongside Skuse or Elliott when they're fit, for me he looks a much better player all round.

[petehinton]

it bemuses me that everyone who says Gj plays him not because hes his son, because hes a qaulity player

If he was such a quality player why don't we hear any rumours about him being linked to a better club ? :s

would be interesting if we got an offer of a good price if Gj would accept it.

[The Chaplain]

... is embarrassing and insulting and best left to sags!

[edson]

it bemuses me that everyone who says Gj plays him not because hes his son, because hes a qaulity player

If he was such a quality player why don't we hear any rumours about him being linked to a better club ? :s

would be interesting if we got an offer of a good price if Gj would accept it.

So if I start a rumour with as much factual basis in it as Brooker to Norwich, Fontaine to Liverpool, Elliott to Portsmouth, Orr to Everton and Skuse to West Brom, you'd be more convinced he's a good player?

Would I be right in thinking that you believe the sole reason Lee Johnson is in the team is because his father is the manager?

If so, I should point out that would be a potentially libellous accusation.

[Tales From The Front]

So if I start a rumour with as much factual basis in it as Brooker to Norwich, Fontaine to Liverpool, Elliott to Portsmouth, Orr to Everton and Skuse to West Brom, you'd be more convinced he's a good player?

Would I be right in thinking that you believe the sole reason Lee Johnson is in the team is because his father is the manager?

If so, I should point out that would be a potentially libellous accusation.

Why the need for the over reaction...and referring to litigation, this it seems to me is part of the problem and the person I feel most sorry for is Lee Johnson. Its true I personaly think when all are fully fit we have better options in his position, but the hysteria both for and against this player does the player himself no favours whats so ever. I dared mention a formation without number 33 the other day, not once did I criticise the player but low and behold another poster went right off the deep end

I suspect the issue is not that the player his picked becuase of who is father is, but many fear to say to much because of the genuine concern of upsetting the manager who has and continues to do so much for the club. The thread concerning the alledged heated argument at last night game between the manager and supporter last night would seem to fuel this theroy. I think all concerned need to take a deep breath and realise that the player is not picked becuase of his father, the manager needs to take a deep breath and not bite, when he hears critism of his players. And finaly that this player should be able to be debated on this board in a reasoned way without the hysteria both for and against that acompanies it.

Otherwise this players is being discriminated against both positively and negitvely depending on you stand point. And the only looser in that scenario is the player himself.

[edson]

Why the need for the over reaction...and referring to litigation, this it seems to me is part of the problem and the person I feel most sorry for is Lee Johnson. Its true I personaly think when all are fully fit we have better options in his position, but the hysteria both for and against this player does the player himself no favours whats so ever. I dared mention a formation without number 33 the other day, not once did I criticise the player but low and behold another poster went right off the deep end

I suspect the issue is not that the player his picked becuase of who is father is, but many fear to say to much because of the genuine concern of upsetting the manager who has and continues to do so much for the club. The thread concerning the alledged heated argument at last night game between the manager and supporter last night would seem to fuel this theroy. I think all concerned need to take a deep breath and realise that the player is not picked becuase of his father, the manager needs to take a deep breath and not bite, when he hears critism of his players. And finaly that this player should be able to be debated on this board in a reasoned way without the hysteria both for and against that acompanies it.

Otherwise this players is being discriminated against both positively and negitvely depending on you stand point. And the only looser in that scenario is the player himself.

Because we have to moderate this forum and its contents and can't allow potentially libellous comments on here.

It may seem heavy-handed, but just as we wouldn't let anyone make unsubstantiated allegations against you, we can't allow them against Gary Johnson.

[Nibor]

Because we have to moderate this forum and its contents and can't allow potentially libellous comments on here.

It may seem heavy-handed, but just as we wouldn't let anyone make unsubstantiated allegations against you, we can't allow them against Gary Johnson.

I'm sure the fair comment defence applies to nearly any opinion about football team selections.

Wheeling out the libel thing is unnecessarily heavy handed.

[edson]

I'm sure the fair comment defence applies to nearly any opinion about football team selections.

Wheeling out the libel thing is unnecessarily heavy handed.

Unfounded accusations of nepotism are surely unacceptable.

They are in my book, anyway.

[bs3]

Because we have to moderate this forum and its contents and can't allow potentially libellous comments on here.

It may seem heavy-handed, but just as we wouldn't let anyone make unsubstantiated allegations against you, we can't allow them against Gary Johnson.

What was libellous about petehinton comments? You posed the question "Would I be right in thinking that you believe the sole reason Lee Johnson is in the team is because his father is the manager?" Not petehinton.

He said

"it bemuses me that everyone who says Gj plays him not because hes his son, because hes a qaulity player

If he was such a quality player why don't we hear any rumours about him being linked to a better club ? :s

would be interesting if we got an offer of a good price if Gj would accept it. "

I read that through a few times and it don't seem libellous to me in anyway. And if it was libellous you should of deleted it.

I have to agree with TFTF a little over the top.

[edson]

What was libellous about petehinton comments? You posed the question "Would I be right in thinking that you believe the sole reason Lee Johnson is in the team is because his father is the manager?" Not petehinton.

He said

"it bemuses me that everyone who says Gj plays him not because hes his son, because hes a qaulity player

If he was such a quality player why don't we hear any rumours about him being linked to a better club ? :s

would be interesting if we got an offer of a good price if Gj would accept it. "

I read that through a few times and it don't seem libellous to me in anyway. And if it was libellous you should of deleted it.

I have to agree with TFTF a little over the top.

The inference is, I think, that Gary Johnson picks Lee Johnson because he is his son and not because he is a good enough player.

I'm unsure. Hence I asked the question for clarity before deleting it.

[exiledinwatford]

A good thread as yet without hysteria!

I am one who thinks that we are lucky to have Lee and very lucky to have GJ. I also agree with others that IMO Lee has "deserved" a rest from his automatic status from time to time. Williams is getting better, Marvin will be back soon, Skuse is playing well which, leaves McIndoe and LJ. Competition hotting up.

One thing to remember is that if the players thought LJ was getting preferential treatment it would certainly destroy team spirit and that's something that we have by the bucketful.

[Nibor]

Unfounded accusations of nepotism are surely unacceptable.

They are in my book, anyway.

I don't like them much either but it doesn't make them libellous.

They're in exactly the same category as "Stern John's only here for the money and he's lazy", "Noble likes a drink and can't be arsed to get fit" and "Trundle is fat".

They're all subjective views (none of which I agree with) that could cause someone to think worse of the person concerned, and they've all been expressed on here without any mention of libel.

If you're going to say libel applies in one case then it applies in all. I'd suggest this forum is better served by not bringing it up, the fact that it's rarely mentioned in any context other than the GJ/LJ one just detracts from any sensible rebuttal.

[edson]

I don't like them much either but it doesn't make them libellous.

They're in exactly the same category as "Stern John's only here for the money and he's lazy", "Noble likes a drink and can't be arsed to get fit" and "Trundle is fat".

They're all subjective views (none of which I agree with) that could cause someone to think worse of the person concerned, and they've all been expressed on here without any mention of libel.

If you're going to say libel applies in one case then it applies in all. I'd suggest this forum is better served by not bringing it up, the fact that it's rarely mentioned in any context other than the GJ/LJ one just detracts from any sensible rebuttal.

Fair enough.

I take your points on board.

[CiderHider]

I know for a fact LJ works twice as hard in training because he's the gaffers son. Anyone who thinks LJ gets picked on anything other than merit is disrespecting both GJ and LJ. Personally I think its sad this subject is given so much debate, but people keep on making the same predictable arguments, oh dear.

[Guest MaloneFM]

If we are going down the libel route can I say that hairspray boy has his teeth capped and uncle Bruce didn't really like him?

Or not?

[exiledinwatford]

I know for a fact LJ works twice as hard in training because he's the gaffers son. Anyone who thinks LJ gets picked on anything other than merit is disrespecting both GJ and LJ. Personally I think its sad this subject is given so much debate, but people keep on making the same predictable arguments, oh dear.

If you read the posts you will find some interesting points made - but I guess this is now the end of the thread.

[Tenyards]

I think the fact that LJ is small is one reason his skills aren't appreciated. Some people seem to think that you have to have a greater physical presence to play in Midfield. Of course you can be small and physical (Gerry Gow/ Billy Bremner) but LJ doesn't have that Tigerish tackling quality.

I believe he is a virtual ever-present for two very good reasons: 1, he is a consistent performer who never gets injured or suspended. 2. He plays exactly the way the manager wants him to play (maybe being his son helps him to understand what is required but he is not picked just because he is GJ's son)

Very few people question other players who are picked by GJ just as often. For instance Bradley Orr displays woeful distribution sometimes but is always in the team; McAllister gives away silly free kicks and gets involved unecessarily and yet is rarely dropped.

I can rarely remember a time in the last four decades when we could hold our own with Coventry...now we play them off the pitch. We have always had to play out of our skins to match Birmingham, Nottingham Forest or Crystal Palace...now we are on more than equal terms (not to mention a whole division above Leeds). We have made real progress and LJ has been at the heart of our Midfield during that time. He is not a passenger in the side. Like all players he sometimes has a bad game or misplaces a pass. If we get promoted this year with LJ in the team then I shall be very happy indeed!!

[Guest MaloneFM]

I too couldn't give a monkeys arse if GJ plays LJ because he is is son, I mean how do we know Basso isn't the result of some kind of passionate encounter when Millen was in Brazil once? Who's to say he hasn't actually ever been there eh? Or maybe Mrs Basso went to Vicarage road one night.

And the years sort of add up if you shut one eye.

As long as we win he can play his missus I really don't care.

[exiledinwatford]

I too couldn't give a monkeys arse if GJ plays LJ because he is is son, I mean how do we know Basso isn't the result of some kind of passionate encounter when Millen was in Brazil once? Who's to say he hasn't actually ever been there eh? Or maybe Mrs Basso went to Vicarage road one night.

And the years sort of add up if you shut one eye.

As long as we win he can play his missus I really don't care.

There are lots of women who go to Vicarage Road - you never know!

[CiderHider]

If you read the posts you will find some interesting points made - but I guess this is now the end of the thread.

Yes there are good points made here actually, I don't mean to single anyone out either, my frustration is mostly with the people who are of the opinion LJ plays only because hes the son of the GJ, which to me is just wrong and entirely inaccurate.

Its not the end of the thread, LJ threads, like Duracell just go on and on

[richwwtk]

would be interesting if we got an offer of a good price if Gj would accept it.

Was Gary still in charge at Yeovil when Lee left to join Hearts?

edit - No he wasn't, ignore me

[bh red]

Has anyone actually had the guile to go up to GJ and ask him why he picks his son week in week out?

has anyone actually seen David Noble lately?

[bh red]

I know for a fact LJ works twice as hard in training because he's the gaffers son. Anyone who thinks LJ gets picked on anything other than merit is disrespecting both GJ and LJ. Personally I think its sad this subject is given so much debate, but people keep on making the same predictable arguments, oh dear.

personally I coldn't give a hoot about the father/son business, (christ there was always talk of "he's only playing because of his dad", when Andrew Jordan and Liam Rosenior first played for City and their fathers weren't even employed by the club at the time so it was always going to happen with Lee)

but when the same player is having constantly poor performances like Johnson's in the last few weeks (and for most the season), it's always going to be an issue for any player who's not dropped, many players this season have been slated for playing badly McAllister very recently, but then he pulls out a very good performance like last night and people will lay off him, unfortunately.....I can't remember the last time Johnson had a blinder of a performance? anyone else? geninue question?