More Football Violence

[Northern Red]

From the footage i've seen in the ground it's all Westham so I don't know why people are blaming Millwall when they havn't seen any footage of outside the ground. There will be Millwall involved I know but the blame gets put on Millwall all the time by the media.

Exactly, can't comment about outside the ground but from the pictures it looks like it was all West Ham on the pitch and inside the ground. 5 Live were saying the Millwall fans in the ground were very well behaved.

Millwall have a reputation that we all know about (remember what happened in that Friday Night game at AG a few years ago) but West Ham have a significant section of racist, knuckledragging, little englander morons following them, and due to them having a large part in England winning the World Cup are media darlings who can do little wrong.

Finally, if Gary Neville can get a disrepute charge & fine for celebrating in front of Liverpool fans, then I do hope that cretin Stanislas gets what's coming to him for the way he celebrated in front of the Millwall fans.

[DavidNoble]

Exactly, can't comment about outside the ground but from the pictures it looks like it was all West Ham on the pitch and inside the ground. 5 Live were saying the Millwall fans in the ground were very well behaved.

Millwall have a reputation that we all know about (remember what happened in that Friday Night game at AG a few years ago) but West Ham have a significant section of racist, knuckledragging, little englander morons following them, and due to them having a large part in England winning the World Cup are media darlings who can do little wrong.

Finally, if Gary Neville can get a disrepute charge & fine for celebrating in front of Liverpool fans, then I do hope that cretin Stanislas gets what's coming to him for the way he celebrated in front of the Millwall fans.

Hardly well behaved though tbh!?

[Bristoliain]

You dont use real blood in Rugby!

Ha, thats very true.

[Dollymarie]

Spare a thought for Jack Collison who lost his old man just two days ago and he played regardless. Was sad to see him in tears at the end.

Indeed, he had two minders keeping an eye on him from what they were saying on the tv last night.

[MurrayLives]

Spare a thought for Jack Collison who lost his old man just two days ago and he played regardless. Was sad to see him in tears at the end.

I also noticed he was helping police in getting West Ham fans off the pitch.

[Fat Cigar]

A good friend of mine was at the game. He's a West Ham fan. From everything I've heard and read, and from what's been said by the police, the violence leading up to the game was all pre-arranged. There were hundreds of people involved.

What I'd really like to know is how many of those involved in the pre-match violence actually had a ticket to the game? My guess would be, very few. In which case, it's very hard and unfair to blame either club for the pre-match trouble. If hundreds of blokes want a punch up, they'll find a way.

It's amazing, you can imagine once the draw for this tie was made, there were probably several phone calls and emails sent organising all of this: "Ok, we'll bring 150, how many can you bring?" Something along the lines. This seems to be the nature of "football violence" since the 1990s.

These people are not "football supporters." They just use football as an event, an occasion with which to let out all their aggression which they keep bubbling below the surface.

The aggro inside the ground is a slightly different matter in the sense that it was probably (I'm guessing) not pre-arranged, but happened based on events outside the ground. Hence, it mainly being West Ham fans who were responsible for the trouble at the game. As a previous poster on here has said, BBC Radio 5Live reported that the Millwall fans at the game were well behaved.

My final point is that it's very hard for a club to police what happens outside the ground. Inside is different because they'll have names on databases, and they are far more responsible for what goes on.

Still, a pretty sad night, but again, I doubt most of the trouble makers ever intended to go to the game.

[Bristolian76]

I remember when Millwall came down here once (1991-ish I think Teddy Sheringham was still playing for them), we got hammered 4-1 and it kicked off big time in Ashton Park afterwards - some loon had a mace

Always remember that game, i remember the ball going into the Millwall fans in the Open End, it dissapeared for a few seconds was then thrown back onto the pitch, it didnt bounce as it had been slashed.

[bringbacktherobin]

What i do not understand is this.

The BBC and all the news channels love it when something like this happens, but surely there is worse things in this country at the moment. When did the last time something like this happen at west ham?

But when was the last time some kiddy got stabbed in england?

Surely the following is more important than some people going around fighting.

Our Health System,

Stabbing,

Gun Crime,

Motorbike Crime,

Lack of police,

Etc Etc

Yes it is bad, yes it shouldnt happen but surley there is more important things that happen on a day to day basis in this country.

[MurrayLives]

What i do not understand is this.

The BBC and all the news channels love it when something like this happens, but surely there is worse things in this country at the moment. When did the last time something like this happen at west ham?

But when was the last time some kiddy got stabbed in england?

Surely the following is more important than some people going around fighting.

Our Health System,

Stabbing,

Gun Crime,

Motorbike Crime,

Lack of police,

Etc Etc

Yes it is bad, yes it shouldnt happen but surley there is more important things that happen on a day to day basis in this country.

Someone got stabbed in the chest last night

[22A]

Looking at the news, inside the ground there were far more 'ammers fans involved than those of 'wall.

Outside the ground the Police state it was planned in advance, so although it will be labelled football hooliganism, it was in fact "just" a gang fight that occurred near a football ground.

[Frenchay Red]

Im all for throwing West Ham out of the competition for failing to control their supporters (it'll never happen I know) and give whoever they would have got in the next round a bye.

I think this is a good idea, and it perhaps it should be followed up by excluding both clubs from the competition for say 3 years?

Harsh, but this madness has to be stopped as otherwise all football supporters are tarred with same brush.

[bringbacktherobin]

Someone got stabbed in the chest last night

Yes but is that any different from any other day in this country?

[Seend Red]

Like some have already said it's quite clear the football match was just an excuse for numerous beer bellied 30 and 40 somethings and young polyestered clad teen street rats to have a tear up to brighten up their otherwise sad pointless existence on this planet, the fighting was going on prior,during and after the match so it it virtually impossible to control.

I was watching Sky Sports News this morning and it showed these horrible fat c**** running all over the pitch like vermin thinking they were the business! Makes me so mad watching this stuff as the majority just demonstrate hurd mentality and follow the few that start his stuff. They have no self respect or dignity and in a control one on onme fight would have the granny kicked out of them.

It was reported that West Ham were throwing rocks and bottles from the back of the trouble and they were actually landing on there own lot at the front! Says it all really!

Everyone involved and identified on CCTV should all be sent to Afghanistan to fight, then we'll see how tough these brick thowing thugish losers really are when they have tracers flying over their heads.

Ban Millwall and West ham from the league cup for 2 years and throw West ham out this year.

Everyone involved is scum and IMO opinion parasites on society in general.

[bully]

this sort of thing could easily ruin of chances of getting the world cup blatter and platini hardly need an excuse to not award it to us

If it does then it will be purely political - much bigger agro in Poland and the Ukraine nowadays and it hasn't affected them.

[Almondsbury_red]

Who ever agreed to allow fans to travel to the game needs to be shot.

It would of made absolutely no difference whatsoever. The trouble was during the game aswell with large numbers without tickets causing trouble aswell. If they had given Millwall no tickets then thousands would still of turned up.

West Ham were causing alot of the trouble yet everyone on here just lays into Millwall, don't let the facts get in the way of your prejudices against Millwall. West Ham were equally as guilty. This was always going to happen no matter what the police the clubs or anyone tried to do, it shouldn't of come as a shock to anyone.

[bully]

Like some have already said it's quite clear the football match was just an excuse for numerous beer bellied 30 and 40 somethings and young polyestered clad teen street rats to have a tear up to brighten up their otherwise sad pointless existence on this planet, the fighting was going on prior,during and after the match so it it virtually impossible to control.

I was watching Sky Sports News this morning and it showed these horrible fat c**** running all over the pitch like vermin thinking they were the business! Makes me so mad watching this stuff as the majority just demonstrate hurd mentality and follow the few that start his stuff. They have no self respect or dignity and in a control one on onme fight would have the granny kicked out of them.

It was reported that West Ham were throwing rocks and bottles from the back of the trouble and they were actually landing on there own lot at the front! Says it all really!

Everyone involved and identified on CCTV should all be sent to Afghanistan to fight, then we'll see how tough these brick thowing thugish losers really are when they have tracers flying over their heads.

Ban Millwall and West ham from the league cup for 2 years and throw West ham out this year.

Everyone involved is scum and IMO opinion parasites on society in general.

Herd mentality indeed - I suspect most of these 'lads' wouldn't have been interested unless copious amounts of booze and nose candy were taken.

If they'd really wanted to go for it, they could have met in an industrial estate somewhere and sealed off the roads so OB couldn't break it up - rather like Ajax/Feyenoord some years ago, or the so called 'fair play' widely employed across Germany, Russia, Poland and the Ukraine - no property damaged, no scarfers attacked and filmed for posterity to avoid the usual post fight internet arguments over who did whom.

Trouble is of course, they might get seriously hurt or even killed and most of them wouldn't want to place themselves in that position.

I don't think the clubs should be punished incidentally - CSF and its predecessors have been very naughty in years gone by and we wouldn't want to be banned if say, another Millwall 1985 happened..

[CotswoldRed]

Unbeleivable that there are people like that out there. Reading the Millwall forum its scary to think of the hatred that people have over something that doesn't actually matter that much.

Their website has enough evidence on it to prosecute for incitement to violence amongst many other things. How it remains online is bizarre.

[4eveREDDy]

Looking at the news, inside the ground there were far more 'ammers fans involved than those of 'wall.

Outside the ground the Police state it was planned in advance, so although it will be labelled football hooliganism, it was in fact "just" a gang fight that occurred near a football ground.

Absolutely 22A, the knobs inside the ground have blown it big time, they will be hunted down and banned for life, West ham will be charged with failing to control their fans, outside the ground is a different matter,

TED CROKER, Secretary of the Football Association during the difficult Seventies, has died, aged 68. His efforts to lead the game out of its insularity were not widely recognised but eventually allowed the FA to realise its own commercial possibilities.

Croker was not an outstanding league player. He made only eight appearances in the Charlton Athletic defence during the early Fifties. However, his move into administration brought out a talent for diplomacy and organisation at a time when the FA was still deeply rooted in old-fashioned attitudes.

The biggest hazard facing football during Croker's period in office was hooliganism and the game's credibility. When summoned to a meeting at Downing Street, he spoke up bravely while others shrank into silence.

Margaret Thatcher asked: 'What are you going to do about your hooliganism?' Croker replied: 'Not our hooligans, Prime Minister, but yours. The products of your society.'

[Fat Cigar]

Absolutely 22A, the knobs inside the ground have blown it big time, they will be hunted down and banned for life, West ham will be charged with failing to control their fans, outside the ground is a different matter,

TED CROKER, Secretary of the Football Association during the difficult Seventies, has died, aged 68. His efforts to lead the game out of its insularity were not widely recognised but eventually allowed the FA to realise its own commercial possibilities.

Croker was not an outstanding league player. He made only eight appearances in the Charlton Athletic defence during the early Fifties. However, his move into administration brought out a talent for diplomacy and organisation at a time when the FA was still deeply rooted in old-fashioned attitudes.

The biggest hazard facing football during Croker's period in office was hooliganism and the game's credibility. When summoned to a meeting at Downing Street, he spoke up bravely while others shrank into silence.

Margaret Thatcher asked: 'What are you going to do about your hooliganism?' Croker replied: 'Not our hooligans, Prime Minister, but yours. The products of your society.'

Indeed. The same kind of people who fight every Friday and Saturday night after having one too many. They're not however, as some academics and so-called 'experts' used to say, socially deprived or 'alienated working class men.' They just like fighting, it's as simple as that. They just happen to, very loosely, associate themselves with Millwall, or Leeds, or Cardiff etc.

[The Man In Black]

As it was a cup game, how many of those that were on the pitch have season tickets? I doubt many of them.

I'm appalled by all this, but just as annoyed by all the news reports referring to all these people as "fans".

I don't care how much they 'feel' for their club, or how passionate they are. They are not "fans" or "supporters" to me, and they're not welcome anywhere near our game.

By all means, they can arrange a good scrap amongst themselves as long as they meet the following provisos:

1) they do it far away from other people. Nobody else should be able to see it or be affected by it

2) they don't relate it to football, or any other sport, in any way

3) they know they won't get treated on the NHS for any injuries they sustain

[The Casual Connoisseur]

This has always been a difficult fixture to Police, the teams are seperated by a few miles and there are many, many routes to Police including 4 tube stations in a 1 mile radius, Plaistow, East Ham, West Ham and Upton park ......further away you having Canning Town, which I would hazard a guess at being the one that Millwall travelled from, who knows

From what I understand Millwall had been mouthing off about doing this and that in the week leading up to the game, what came as a suprise to West Ham, the police and probably Millwall was the apparant ease of how that many Millwall lads managed to "mob up" and attack a West Ham pub, that lies only a matter of minutes from the ground, surely this should have been nipped in the bud by appropriate Policing, for a fixture of this magnitude I would expect a Police helicopter, BTP on all transport in and around a 2 mile radius of the ground, vehicle checks on coaches, minibuses, transit vans, every pub with at least one Policeman outside or closed for the evening, the trouble should have been avoided.

There a couple of questions I would be asking the Policeman in charge of this operation:

[Ralph Milne]

I also noticed he was helping police in getting West Ham fans off the pitch.

i really felt for collison, he obviously didn't have to play last night and then had to go through that. As for the bloke who scored the first goal then ran to where all the trouble had been, what a ***** should be banned and heavily fined for inciting the crowd.

[Bounce Around the Ground]

Both teams should be made to play games behind closed doors.

I hope this doesn't dent England's chances of getting the world cup.

[The Man In Black]

For all those calling for games behind closed doors:

Please tell me what else the clubs could have done to prevent this?

You can clearly see plenty of stewards IN the ground. Outside of the ground, what can they do?

Maybe the police should have had a much higher presence in the ground? Think of some of the innocuous games we've played where the police have insisted on a policemen on EVERY step of the East End. And that's for games where we would be amazed if there was any more than banter between the two sets of fans!

So, what else could the club do to stop people intent on getting on to the pitch encroaching on the field of play? Answers on a postcard.

And if anyone says fences I'll be forced to kick them.

[The Man In Black]

On top of what I've written above:

A lot will hinge on the clubs' response. It's of course up to them to study CCTV and effectively ban for life anyone involved.

BUT I can't see what else they could have done on the night.

[Bris Red]

Both teams should be made to play games behind closed doors.

I hope this doesn't dent England's chances of getting the world cup.

Dont be silly, scenes like this happen all over Europe, if Countrys like Germany can get the World cup we will have no problem.

The media in England do like to create a HUGE scene when any sort of football viloence happens, in terms of largish scale viloence involving a few hundread this is the first i can remember for years. England as a country is one of the safest places to watch football in the world. One minor event will not harm our chances of getting the WC.

[CodeRed]

This has always been a difficult fixture to Police, the teams are seperated by a few miles and there are many, many routes to Police including 4 tube stations in a 1 mile radius, Plaistow, East Ham, West Ham and Upton park ......further away you having Canning Town, which I would hazard a guess at being the one that Millwall travelled from, who knows

From what I understand Millwall had been mouthing off about doing this and that in the week leading up to the game, what came as a suprise to West Ham, the police and probably Millwall was the apparant ease of how that many Millwall lads managed to "mob up" and attack a West Ham pub, that lies only a matter of minutes from the ground, surely this should have been nipped in the bud by appropriate Policing, for a fixture of this magnitude I would expect a Police helicopter, BTP on all transport in and around a 2 mile radius of the ground, vehicle checks on coaches, minibuses, transit vans, every pub with at least one Policeman outside or closed for the evening, the trouble should have been avoided.

There a couple of questions I would be asking the Policeman in charge of this operation:

Earlier in this thread there was a link to a Millwall fans site, I read a couple of posts from Millwall fans (not "lads") who went.

Seems the police tactic was to identify which trains contained Millwall fans and those trains were only allowed to stop at East Ham, but no Police were in evidence outside the station! Lots of fans reporting that they didn't see any police until they arrived right outside the ground, random skirmishes and ambush going off everywhere en route to the ground.

Fans also reporting that many more Millwall were in and around West Ham than had tickets (only 2300 allocated)

some Millwall were wrongly (??) directed by Police down the wrong street straight into waiting West Ham fans.

Also reported by fans that there was a charge/crush at the away gates leading to the gates being forced open and Millwall fans going straight through without showing a ticket, many without tickets entering.

Finally a caller to talksport this morning was saying that the tickets had been on GENERAL SALE at Upton Park.

Whilst clearly the blame lies with the 3 or 400 strong "firms" on both sides who wanted trouble and got it - but from the fans accounts the whole evening seems to have been badly handled by the Police.

Also whilst listening to Talksport Mike "Porky" Parry was his usual hysterical self, I was only in the car for 15 mins or so but I caught a few of his suggestions:

A cordon of police lining the touchline at evry match

moats

Armed riot police being deployed inside grounds (clubs can pay £24M for a player so they can afford it)

ban the fans, ban the clubs, ban the away fans,cancel the fixtures, blah blah blah

What a complete plonker that guy is.

CR

[Fodbarmyarmy]

Looking at the news, inside the ground there were far more 'ammers fans involved than those of 'wall.

Outside the ground the Police state it was planned in advance, so although it will be labelled football hooliganism, it was in fact "just" a gang fight that occurred near a football ground.

and a complete coincidence I suppose that the "Gangs" just by chance happened to be supporting two diferent football clubs.........

[Fat Cigar]

Dont be silly, scenes like this happen all over Europe, if Countrys like Germany can get the World cup we will have no problem.

The media in England do like to create a HUGE scene when any sort of football viloence happens, in terms of largish scale viloence involving a few hundread this is the first i can remember for years. England as a country is one of the safest places to watch football in the world. One minor event will not harm our chances of getting the WC.

Well said, Sir.

[Fat Cigar]

Earlier in this thread there was a link to a Millwall fans site, I read a couple of posts from Millwall fans (not "lads") who went.

Seems the police tactic was to identify which trains contained Millwall fans and those trains were only allowed to stop at East Ham, but no Police were in evidence outside the station! Lots of fans reporting that they didn't see any police until they arrived right outside the ground, random skirmishes and ambush going off everywhere en route to the ground.

Fans also reporting that many more Millwall were in and around West Ham than had tickets (only 2300 allocated)

some Millwall were wrongly (??) directed by Police down the wrong street straight into waiting West Ham fans.

Also reported by fans that there was a charge/crush at the away gates leading to the gates being forced open and Millwall fans going straight through without showing a ticket, many without tickets entering.

Finally a caller to talksport this morning was saying that the tickets had been on GENERAL SALE at Upton Park.

Whilst clearly the blame lies with the 3 or 400 strong "firms" on both sides who wanted trouble and got it - but from the fans accounts the whole evening seems to have been badly handled by the Police.

Also whilst listening to Talksport Mike "Porky" Parry was his usual hysterical self, I was only in the car for 15 mins or so but I caught a few of his suggestions:

A cordon of police lining the touchline at evry match

moats

Armed riot police being deployed inside grounds (clubs can pay £24M for a player so they can afford it)

ban the fans, ban the clubs, ban the away fans,cancel the fixtures, blah blah blah

What a complete plonker that guy is.

CR

Yeah, it'll now be time for the usual over the top responses. Unfortunately, we live in a world where putting things into perspective rarely happens. There just needs to be better and far more intelligent policing. Having said that, last night's events were probably not easy to prevent, but very easy to predict.