gater2 Posted September 27, 2009 Report Share Posted September 27, 2009 If you had to rank all the clubs in the championship by how 'big' they are, how would it go? Taking into account history (both recent and further back), money, stadium, fans, prospects for the future etc. i.e. Newcastle are a much 'bigger' club than Peterborough. Naturally it's subjective and some will think history is bigger than prospects for the future (so Forest have a bigger history, but Middlesboro' are probably going to finish above them this year and have been better in recent years) for example. Mine would be: 1. Newcastle 2. Middlesborough 3. West Brom 4. Nottm Forest 5. Sheff Utd 6. Sheff Weds 7. Preston 8. QPR 9. Derby 10. Ipswich 11. Reading 12. BRISTOL CITY 13. Cardiff 14. Palace 15. Leicester 16. Watford 17. Swansea 18. Blackpool 19. Coventry 20. Doncaster 21. Plymouth 22. Barnsley 23. S****horpe 24. Peterborough Evidently no offence meant to the teams lower down, but I guess you can see this as a where do you think they'll be in 10 years kind of thing as hard as I know that is to guess.. In my case we're 12th so in fact any finish above 12th for me would actually be punching above our weight and I would be pleased with, anything below and I'd be unhappy. Kind of puts in perspective how some of us think we have a divine right to be in the top 6 (although of course we all hope we will be). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinman-is-god Posted September 27, 2009 Report Share Posted September 27, 2009 If you had to rank all the clubs in the championship by how 'big' they are, how would it go? Taking into account history (both recent and further back), money, stadium, fans, prospects for the future etc. i.e. Newcastle are a much 'bigger' club than Peterborough. Naturally it's subjective and some will think history is bigger than prospects for the future (so Forest have a bigger history, but Middlesboro' are probably going to finish above them this year and have been better in recent years) for example. Mine would be: 1. Newcastle 2. Middlesborough 3. West Brom 4. Nottm Forest 5. Sheff Utd 6. Sheff Weds 7. Preston 8. QPR 9. Derby 10. Ipswich 11. Reading 12. BRISTOL CITY 13. Cardiff 14. Palace 15. Leicester 16. Watford 17. Swansea 18. Blackpool 19. Coventry 20. Doncaster 21. Plymouth 22. Barnsley 23. S****horpe 24. Peterborough Evidently no offence meant to the teams lower down, but I guess you can see this as a where do you think they'll be in 10 years kind of thing as hard as I know that is to guess.. In my case we're 12th so in fact any finish above 12th for me would actually be punching above our weight and I would be pleased with, anything below and I'd be unhappy. Kind of puts in perspective how some of us think we have a divine right to be in the top 6 (although of course we all hope we will be). I'd have Cardiff, Leicester and Coventry as bigger clubs that us. Cardiff have spent £4m on a player who is earning 20k a week and have been able to attract some quality players and have, in my view, a stronger chance of getting to the Prem than us in the next few years. Leicester have a good foundation, rich chairman and have won the league cup twice in late 90's and have Prem experience. I think Coventry still get a lot more attention as a club than us due to their time in the Prem and also Chris Coleman, as much as he's a bit of a tit, is a well known name too. Pretty good list though, agree with most of it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formerly known as ivan Posted September 27, 2009 Report Share Posted September 27, 2009 I'd have Cardiff, Leicester and Coventry as bigger clubs that us. Cardiff have spent £4m on a player who is earning 20k a week and have been able to attract some quality players and have, in my view, a stronger chance of getting to the Prem than us in the next few years. Leicester have a good foundation, rich chairman and have won the league cup twice in late 90's and have Prem experience. I think Coventry still get a lot more attention as a club than us due to their time in the Prem and also Chris Coleman, as much as he's a bit of a tit, is a well known name too. Pretty good list though, agree with most of it! add palace and watford to that list as they have both been top league clubs in recent years. think thats one thing our fans need to remember, we arent that big a club! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sober Cyber Ciderhead Posted September 27, 2009 Report Share Posted September 27, 2009 add palace and watford to that list as they have both been top league clubs in recent years. think thats one thing our fans need to remember, we arent that big a club! Very true, it might help some keep things in perspective a bit at times. Nothing wrong with ambition and a desire for more, but I believe it's right to recognise that we are, actually, doing very well as a club at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityhead Posted September 27, 2009 Report Share Posted September 27, 2009 Of the teams in the Championship this season over half have had Premier League experience (not including pre-Premier League like ourselves). This is why each year it becomes more and more difficult to get promoted and why Newcastle, Boro ans west brom are favourites to bounce back. We are currently punching our weight as mid table is in line with our recent experience crowd size. A bit of perspective would help on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dezgimed Posted September 27, 2009 Report Share Posted September 27, 2009 I like to play along with the sleeping giant falacy but in reality we are not big at all. Attendances are a key indicator IMO and ours are dire given our position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Red Posted September 27, 2009 Report Share Posted September 27, 2009 I like to play along with the sleeping giant falacy but in reality we are not big at all. Attendances are a key indicator IMO and ours are dire given our position. Dire seems a bit strong IMO, there are quite a few clubs that are as big (if not bigger) than us that are at the moment getting lower gates than us.. But yes we are not even close to the Sheff Weds Nott's Forest Derby's of this world in terms of fanbases, all of those teams are more than capable of getting 25k + on a regular basis, the only way we will start to get 20k + on a regular basis is if we get into the premier league. As it stands in the championship 14/15/16 k average gates will be our limit imho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bigcheese Posted September 27, 2009 Report Share Posted September 27, 2009 Bloke came up to me t'other day in the supermarket (out here in the sticks ) and wondered who my shirt was for. When he read the logo he said 'good lad' but it's like.....sheesh.. That's one of the problems, but always great to see someone in a city shirt! Would someone from Newcastle for instance go out and buy a Chelsea shirt? :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leobcfc1 Posted September 27, 2009 Report Share Posted September 27, 2009 add palace and watford to that list as they have both been top league clubs in recent years. think thats one thing our fans need to remember, we arent that big a club! You're joking about Palace and Watford being bigger than us surely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gater2 Posted September 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2009 Very true, it might help some keep things in perspective a bit at times. Nothing wrong with ambition and a desire for more, but I believe it's right to recognise that we are, actually, doing very well as a club at the moment. Exactly what I was going for with this. I think we do need perspective. Even if we finish mid-table this year, it will still be a decent effort in a league where most teams at the beginning of the season feel they could realistically make a shout for the playoffs. Again, of course I want us to achieve and I do believe we can make it into the top 6, but I definately believe patience, encouragement and stability 80% of the time lead to more success than impatience and therefore instability.. Look at Newcaste; if their fans had not demanded change after every bad performance they would probably still have Allardyce and still be in the prem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leobcfc1 Posted September 27, 2009 Report Share Posted September 27, 2009 I like to play along with the sleeping giant falacy but in reality we are not big at all. Attendances are a key indicator IMO and ours are dire given our position. I'd say we're one of the biggest sleeping giants in the country in terms of size regarding Bristol and the catchment area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex_BCFC Posted September 27, 2009 Report Share Posted September 27, 2009 You're joking about Palace and Watford being bigger than us surely? Right now they are about the same but in recent times they have both been in the Prem. The good thing is they seem to be moving down and we seem to be moving up (apart from recent results). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leobcfc1 Posted September 27, 2009 Report Share Posted September 27, 2009 Right now they are about the same but in recent times they have both been in the Prem. The good thing is they seem to be moving down and we seem to be moving up (apart from recent results). I do agree about the fact we're moving up and they're not but Watford haven't had a much better history than us to be fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchay Red Posted September 27, 2009 Report Share Posted September 27, 2009 I'd say we're one of the biggest sleeping giants in the country in terms of size regarding Bristol and the catchment area. We are certainly one the largest cities in the land, and the surrounding area takes the population to well over a million I would guess. But that has no bearing on our standing as a "sleeping giant" football club. History infact illustrates exactly the opposite. True we got good attendances when we were in the the top flight and had gates of over 30,000 on several occasions (it was a bit squashed in the old open end!), but giants? No not really. Compared to the "big" clubs the support has never been there really and I suspect that unless, by some miracle, we became a top prem side challenging in Europe, we would, even as a lower mid-table prem side, be lucky to regularly get attendances of more than 25,000. IMO, of course! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leobcfc1 Posted September 27, 2009 Report Share Posted September 27, 2009 Yes good post I agree with most of that, however in the Championship there aren't many other sides who have more potential than City and I would say that in a few years time we could well be in the Premier League with our new stadium so who knows! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dezgimed Posted September 27, 2009 Report Share Posted September 27, 2009 I'd say we're one of the biggest sleeping giants in the country in terms of size regarding Bristol and the catchment area. Yeh but nobody gives a crap at the moment and we are competing at a decent level. To be perfectly honest I dont wanna see the other 30,000 glory hogging bastards appear when we're doing well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leobcfc1 Posted September 27, 2009 Report Share Posted September 27, 2009 Yeh but nobody gives a crap at the moment and we are competing at a decent level. To be perfectly honest I dont wanna see the other 30,000 glory hogging bastards appear when we're doing well. Yes I agree that we wouldn't want to see them, however at the end of the day it is extra revenue for the club to make big transfers and keep us competing with the big teams of the division on a regular basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garlicbread Posted September 28, 2009 Report Share Posted September 28, 2009 Yeh but nobody gives a crap at the moment and we are competing at a decent level. To be perfectly honest I dont wanna see the other 30,000 glory hogging bastards appear when we're doing well. I do! I want this club to be as big as it can be. If a load of Ruperts want to tag long then so be. Should never stand in the way of progress Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barneyredballs Posted September 28, 2009 Report Share Posted September 28, 2009 Guess you can look at it in terms of long term history, size of city, size of regular home attendance, time in Premier League, time in championship and more. I'd go for: Totally depends how you look at it and in theory of 'possible' size, we'd be a lot higher. I think there could be a case to argu to say Leicester/Watford are on a par or bigger and possibly Palace/QPR and maybe even cov are smaller, but either way I wouldn't have us in the top half; which is our problem, we have done excedingly well over the last 2 yrs. 1. Newcastle 2. Middlesborough 3. West Brom 4. Derby - Only ever been in champ/prem, avg att of 29,400 last year (biggest in league) 5. Sheff Utd - Only ever been in champ/prem, avg att of 26,000 last year (2nd biggest in league) 6. Preston - Only ever been in champ, but in 5 yrs, only finished outside Top 10 once 7. Cardiff - Only ever been in champ - Avg Att 18,000, will be bigger this year 8. Sheff Weds - 21,500 Att 9. Ipswich - Only ever been in champ - avg att 20,800 10. Reading - only ever been in champ/prem - avg att 19,900 11. QPR - Only ever been in champ - avg att 14000 12. Forest - Avg att 22,200 13. Coventry - Only ever been in champ - avg att 17,400 14. Palace - only ever been in champ - avg att 15,220 (highest att 22,800) 15. BRISTOL CITY - Champ 2 yrs - avg att 16,800 16. Leicester - Newly promoted 17. Watford - Only ever been in champ/prem - Avg 14,800 18. Swansea - 1 yr in champ 19. Blackpool - 2 yrs in champ - avg att 7800 20. Doncaster - avg att 12000 21. Plymouth - only ever in champ - Avg att 11,500 22. Barnsley - 3 yrs in champ - avg att 13,200 23. S****horpe - Newly promoted 24. Peterborough - newly promoted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southport Red Posted September 28, 2009 Report Share Posted September 28, 2009 We are certainly one the largest cities in the land, and the surrounding area takes the population to well over a million I would guess. But that has no bearing on our standing as a "sleeping giant" football club. History infact illustrates exactly the opposite. True we got good attendances when we were in the the top flight and had gates of over 30,000 on several occasions (it was a bit squashed in the old open end!), but giants? No not really. Compared to the "big" clubs the support has never been there really and I suspect that unless, by some miracle, we became a top prem side challenging in Europe, we would, even as a lower mid-table prem side, be lucky to regularly get attendances of more than 25,000. IMO, of course! True. However, i have often thought it interesting that, if you were a US Zillionaire who wanted to do a 'Kerry Packer' to football you would look at the current Premier League Map and say NO, no, no. If you were staring up Franchises, sorry Clubs from scratch with a blank sheet of paper, you would absolutely base a club in/near Bristol. Does it have anything to do with the diluting effect of Rugby? Very few places can carry a successful Rugby and Football Team (Newcastle for one season, Leicester for maybe three or four) and the West Country is BIG Rugby territory. (e.g. Bath, Gloucester and, ooh, that other one, Oh yes, Clifton ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ashtonyate Posted September 28, 2009 Report Share Posted September 28, 2009 Perhaps you should draw up another list showing the city that has its teams under perform I think Bristol would be way out on top. So why is that It started off Ok the first few years in the 1900s we were up there with the man u. Since that time my family have watch City from the 1930 and in all that time no major Cup finale 4 year in the old first division ,if you were trying you could not have a worst record. I have watch City from 1953 and in most of that time we have underperformed greatly and the reason is the supporter are happy with second best and the people at the top make poor choses. Liverpool sack there Manager after finishing sixth in the Premier League yet we treat our Manager as some kind of god for getting promoted out of division 3. The list that is drawn up is to make us thing we we are over performing is typical trying to fudge the issue. Its only this season that we have had the influx of players that we should have had after the first season. Wake up and smell the coffee we as fans deserve better stop think second best is Ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exiled in kiwi land Posted September 28, 2009 Report Share Posted September 28, 2009 If you are talking history in terms of success then Nottingham Forest have to be top they won European cup twice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edson Posted September 28, 2009 Report Share Posted September 28, 2009 Perhaps you should draw up another list showing the city that has its teams under perform I think Bristol would be way out on top. So why is that It started off Ok the first few years in the 1900s we were up there with the man u. Since that time my family have watch City from the 1930 and in all that time no major Cup finale 4 year in the old first division ,if you were trying you could not have a worst record. I have watch City from 1953 and in most of that time we have underperformed greatly and the reason is the supporter are happy with second best and the people at the top make poor choses. Liverpool sack there Manager after finishing sixth in the Premier League yet we treat our Manager as some kind of god for getting promoted out of division 3. The list that is drawn up is to make us thing we we are over performing is typical trying to fudge the issue. Its only this season that we have had the influx of players that we should have had after the first season. Wake up and smell the coffee we as fans deserve better stop think second best is Ok. But fans of other clubs in this division who pull in far bigger crowds don't? Did you see the attendance at Pride Park on Saturday? Are you aware of how much extra income that brings in every week? Thanks for the caffeine-sniffing advice, but it might be useful if you did likewise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ashtonyate Posted September 28, 2009 Report Share Posted September 28, 2009 But fans of other clubs in this division who pull in far bigger crowds don't? Did you see the attendance at Pride Park on Saturday? Are you aware of how much extra income that brings in every week? Thanks for the caffeine-sniffing advice, but it might be useful if you did likewise. Bristol is bigger than Derby the reason they get bigger crowds is over the years they have had a football team that has performed.even though they are no that good at the moment they will be back in the prem before we are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edson Posted September 28, 2009 Report Share Posted September 28, 2009 Bristol is bigger than Derby the reason they get bigger crowds is over the years they have had a football team that has performed.even though they are no that good at the moment they will be back in the prem before we are. Avoided the questions, then. Fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrs Court Red Posted September 28, 2009 Report Share Posted September 28, 2009 Guess you can look at it in terms of long term history, size of city, size of regular home attendance, time in Premier League, time in championship and more. I'd go for: Totally depends how you look at it and in theory of 'possible' size, we'd be a lot higher. I think there could be a case to argu to say Leicester/Watford are on a par or bigger and possibly Palace/QPR and maybe even cov are smaller, but either way I wouldn't have us in the top half; which is our problem, we have done excedingly well over the last 2 yrs. 1. Newcastle 2. Middlesborough 3. West Brom 4. Derby - Only ever been in champ/prem, avg att of 29,400 last year (biggest in league) 5. Sheff Utd - Only ever been in champ/prem, avg att of 26,000 last year (2nd biggest in league) 6. Preston - Only ever been in champ, but in 5 yrs, only finished outside Top 10 once 7. Cardiff - Only ever been in champ - Avg Att 18,000, will be bigger this year 8. Sheff Weds - 21,500 Att 9. Ipswich - Only ever been in champ - avg att 20,800 10. Reading - only ever been in champ/prem - avg att 19,900 11. QPR - Only ever been in champ - avg att 14000 12. Forest - Avg att 22,200 13. Coventry - Only ever been in champ - avg att 17,400 14. Palace - only ever been in champ - avg att 15,220 (highest att 22,800) 15. BRISTOL CITY - Champ 2 yrs - avg att 16,800 16. Leicester - Newly promoted 17. Watford - Only ever been in champ/prem - Avg 14,800 18. Swansea - 1 yr in champ 19. Blackpool - 2 yrs in champ - avg att 7800 20. Doncaster - avg att 12000 21. Plymouth - only ever in champ - Avg att 11,500 22. Barnsley - 3 yrs in champ - avg att 13,200 23. S****horpe - Newly promoted 24. Peterborough - newly promoted I don't understand this "only ever been in champ" stuff? Over what time frame? It's wrong for nearly every team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dolman Pragmatist Posted September 28, 2009 Report Share Posted September 28, 2009 Perhaps you should draw up another list showing the city that has its teams under perform I think Bristol would be way out on top. So why is that It started off Ok the first few years in the 1900s we were up there with the man u. Since that time my family have watch City from the 1930 and in all that time no major Cup finale 4 year in the old first division ,if you were trying you could not have a worst record. I have watch City from 1953 and in most of that time we have underperformed greatly and the reason is the supporter are happy with second best and the people at the top make poor choses. Liverpool sack there Manager after finishing sixth in the Premier League yet we treat our Manager as some kind of god for getting promoted out of division 3. The list that is drawn up is to make us thing we we are over performing is typical trying to fudge the issue. Its only this season that we have had the influx of players that we should have had after the first season. Wake up and smell the coffee we as fans deserve better stop think second best is Ok. I have to say that, from a historical perspective, I agree with you. Bristol City came into the Football League in a blaze of glory in the early 20th century (don't forget we were one of the first southern clubs to make the decision to join the football league - I think only Arsenal were before us - with most other southern clubs opting to stay in the Southern League for the time being) and after one cup final appearance and one league runners-up season in the early days, we have achieved very little indeed. Teams who arrived later than us have established themselves at the top and even clubs that were relatively small fry when I started watching football in the 1960s are now established top clubs. Even as recently as 1990, the likes of Bolton, Birmingham and Fulham were in the 3rd division with us and watched us get promotion, while Hull and Cardiff were down in the 4th. Given the size of Bristol's catchment area, and the potential we showed at the beginning of our history, I think there is a strong case for us being the most underachieving team in football league history. I can't think of any stronger contenders. Anyone like to suggest someone? Having said that, I actually think that we are now probably seeing the highest standard of football ever at Ashton Gate. I would be surprised if anyone who was watching City in the First Division in the late 70s thinks that the football then was of a higher standard to what we are getting now. The Premier League is off the map as far as quality is concerned, and the comparison has to be between the present Championship and the old First Division, and I would say that the standard and quality of football in the Championship today is far superior to the First Division 30 years ago. No disrespect to Alun Dicks, who did a great job to get us into the first division, but Johnson taking us to the Championship play-offs last year is to my mind probably a greater achievement. Fans should remember that we are actually probably competing at the highest level we have ever seen and competing well. Arguably we have the strongest squad Bristol City has ever had, and the potential to go even higher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ashtonyate Posted September 28, 2009 Report Share Posted September 28, 2009 Avoided the questions, then. Fair enough. I thought I answer it but I will try again the reason they get bigger crowds is they have known success their fan know its only a matter of time before they will get it again. The Bristol teams have over the years peed off a lot of their fans and its happen again now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ashtonyate Posted September 28, 2009 Report Share Posted September 28, 2009 I have to say that, from a historical perspective, I agree with you. Bristol City came into the Football League in a blaze of glory in the early 20th century (don't forget we were one of the first southern clubs to make the decision to join the football league - I think only Arsenal were before us - with most other southern clubs opting to stay in the Southern League for the time being) and after one cup final appearance and one league runners-up season in the early days, we have achieved very little indeed. Teams who arrived later than us have established themselves at the top and even clubs that were relatively small fry when I started watching football in the 1960s are now established top clubs. Even as recently as 1990, the likes of Bolton, Birmingham and Fulham were in the 3rd division with us and watched us get promotion, while Hull and Cardiff were down in the 4th. Given the size of Bristol's catchment area, and the potential we showed at the beginning of our history, I think there is a strong case for us being the most underachieving team in football league history. I can't think of any stronger contenders. Anyone like to suggest someone? Having said that, I actually think that we are now probably seeing the highest standard of football ever at Ashton Gate. I would be surprised if anyone who was watching City in the First Division in the late 70s thinks that the football then was of a higher standard to what we are getting now. The Premier League is off the map as far as quality is concerned, and the comparison has to be between the present Championship and the old First Division, and I would say that the standard and quality of football in the Championship today is far superior to the First Division 30 years ago. No disrespect to Alun Dicks, who did a great job to get us into the first division, but Johnson taking us to the Championship play-offs last year is to my mind probably a greater achievement. Fans should remember that we are actually probably competing at the highest level we have ever seen and competing well. Arguably we have the strongest squad Bristol City has ever had, and the potential to go even higher. Sorry mate but the team that went up to the first division would have played this lot of the park. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edson Posted September 28, 2009 Report Share Posted September 28, 2009 I thought I answer it but I will try again the reason they get bigger crowds is they have known success their fan know its only a matter of time before they will get it again. The Bristol teams have over the years peed off a lot of their fans and its happen again now. Yeah, the Derby fans sounded really happy with their lot up until the goal on Saturday. I bet they were chuffed to bits with their 11 points in the Premier League two seasons ago too, and their 18th-placed finish in the Championship last season. I somehow doubt there's ever been a time when you haven't been peed off. You still haven't answered the questions. I don't recall asking why they get more fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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