Apathy...

[Jordan Tansley]

Yes...I remember those days. I've spent most of my life in Bristol and watched City home and away for years. You end up in a bubble, thinking your team is bigger than it really is.

I moved up North, about 3 years ago, and watch I Premier League football on a regular basis. Either at Man Utd, Man City, Blackburn, Wigan, Bolton, Liverpool, Blackpool and from the Championship Burnley and Preston. I also go to watch Bury and FC United.

All these Clubs are within 45 mins of where i live now. It wasn't until i moved away, that i realised how small BCFC are as a Football Club, in the big picture of things.

We live in a bubble of dreams in Bristol. 40 miles from any worthy other Club. It's a joke. You read the Evening Post and watch points West, and you start believing the bullshit. Seriously...we are nothing. A blip on the map of football. We need to get realistic.

Yes...People will travel to start with, when we get a new Stadium. But like today, where fans have got used to Championship football, people will get used to a new Stadium. After 2/3 years, if we are still in the Championship, the crowd average, will still be the same as what it is now at AG. Are people going to travel in droves just because of a new stadium, playing Championship footballl, year in, year out.

**** me mate

[The Red Planet]

Well if we get 13k for a championship game against a poorly supported side then 20k IS realistic for a premier league game, especially with better facilities.

I think I can remember you saying that you were around the last time we were in Division 1 (now premier league), can you remember the coaches that arrived from all over the west country, Taunton, Bridgwater, Minehead, Ilfracombe, Gloucester, Cheltenham, the list goes on.

That would happen again on an even bigger scale, football today is a different animal to what it used to be back then and people will do almost anything to watch premier league football now.

And the presumption works BOTH ways.

BCAGFC

Spudski

This is the "killer" post on this thread.

You are grossly underestimating the HUGE potential wider potential local support for BCFC if a) we have the new stadium and b) we get into the Prem.

As I have previously posted on here, I work in Bridgwater where I know of at least 10 work mates who would regularly attend games if a and b above happened.

And that is just Somerset, before we consider football fans living in Dorset and Devon and even Cornwall as our potential fan base. Even more likely if Plymouth go down the pan.

I have no doubt that a capacity of 30K at Ashton Vale (if we ever get into the Prem) is actually not enough seats.

As a STH myself, my advice is to keep renewing your ST to secure your seat in the new stadium. They are going to be in demand.

[spudski]

But you cannot provide proof of anything that will happen in the future, although you actually tried to earlier when you stated that the recession was going to get worse and that WAS a fact. people can only give considered opinions of what they think will happen in the future and that's why examples suchas Hull, Reading and Cardiff are given as similar sized clubs who have increased crowds in their new grounds.

Likewise, you gave a considered opinion about the future economy based on the information at hand, but something could happen that gets us out of recession much quicker than that - probably not though - but very few predicted the credit crunch and recession.

i do agree with you about the apathy in Bristol though, but suspect the same apathy existed at the above-mentioned clubs prior to their moves.

I have a business that works in 'Futures'...basically short term investment.

The economy is something i look at every day...stocks and shares etc. The downfull was known for years. People were trying to make a fast buck on the shortest investment possible. That is why we are in the mess we are. The Recession is predicted to get globally worse throughout the World for years to come. Until there is a resolution to oil, it won't get any better. Anyway i digress...

Readings season tickets and attendance will fall dramatically next year. I know this fact. Based on Reading... Hull will do the same.

Cardiff... I see as a totally different entity. I can quiet easily see Cardiff getting 40000 if they make the Prem. Cardiff are similar to Newcastle in their population demograph, and social entity.

[spudski]

Mate, you go on about realistic expectations then demand that a simple fan wasting time on the internet produce proof to something that has not happened yet.

Not having the expertise to produce the proof you demand, I look to the only person with those expertise. The most successful businessman in Bristol and the man willing to put hundreds of millions of pounds worth of investment into the club, and the Idea of the stadium.

Clearly if someone who makes as many good decisions as Steve Lansdown has decided to invest anything up to £100m in a stadium project then he clearly knows it's more likely to work for us than not. He's not just decided, "I want a stadium, I can afford it... screw it." He's not taken the decision lightly.

The thing is mate, you say that everything that doesn't agree with your agenda is unfounded, yet you have nothing to back up anything you say either. As BCAGFC say's, it works both ways.

The only fact you need to see is, We're almost £30m in debt, and we lose a million pounds a year on the current excuse for a stadium. AV will be a profit making entity within the club. on that basis alone it's a viable project.

I've no idea what you and NickJ amongst others have against Steve, are you all bum buddies with Scott Davidson?

I am not a lemming for having faith that the man in charge of my club, a man who has earned my trust, has made a decision he believes will be for the betterment of my club.

Yes undoubtedley a great businessman in his field. But he has just lost 12 million in BCFC, which isn't his speciality...would you not agree? He states it's a gamble to get his moneyback, with the new stadium. He can afford to make the gamble and swallow the loss if it doesn't work out.

However...Before the new Stadium plans, SL never made any reference to selling the Club or moving on. Of which he is doing plenty of these days, although 'reassuring' fans it won't be sold to non pro active buyers. Read between the lines. Why make such statements if it was never asked or suspected. Covering one's ass to justify and appease the masses is a skill which seems to be working.

[Jordan Tansley]

Spudski

This is the "killer" post on this thread.

You are grossly underestimating the HUGE potential wider potential local support for BCFC if a) we have the new stadium and b) we get into the Prem.

As I have previously posted on here, I work in Bridgwater where I know of at least 10 work mates who would regularly attend games if a and b above happened.

And that is just Somerset, before we consider football fans living in Dorset and Devon and even Cornwall as our potential fan base. Even more likely if Plymouth go down the pan.

I have no doubt that a capacity of 30K at Ashton Vale (if we ever get into the Prem) is actually not enough seats.

As a STH myself, my advice is to keep renewing your ST to secure your seat in the new stadium. They are going to be in demand.

This post is pretty close to a "Killer" too RedPlanet.

Spudski doesn't seem to see that Bristol City has one of the biggest untapped potential fan bases in the country, there is not a "bigger" club playing at a higher level than us from Birmingham down to the south coast.

we sit right in the middle of that, we can tap into the potential supporters from North Bristol, Gloucester, Cheltenham. away to the right we have Wiltshire without a club to think of... Nothing but Swindon and Reading a little further south.

Below us the whole of somerset supports City, Only Yeovil and the Prem take away that support. Even more potential support for City. you can go into Devon and even Dorset to a degree and fans are available, fans are waiting for a club, a local club, to find them... we are that club.

Name another Club in the land who has that much potential support that it doesnt have to steal off other clubs? you mention all those clubs up north... they survive and have decent attendances despite competing with each other... we dont have that!

[Old Dazzler]

Readings season tickets and attendance will fall dramatically next year. I know this fact. Based on Reading... Hull will do the same.

Cardiff... I see as a totally different entity. I can quiet easily see Cardiff getting 40000 if they make the Prem. Cardiff are similar to Newcastle in their population demograph, and social entity.

it's perfectly clear now.... what you think will happen is FACT, if people disagree with you they are spouting rubbish as they cannot provide proof of what will happen in the future.

Saturday's lottery numbers please?

[Jordan Tansley]

Yes undoubtedley a great businessman in his field. But he has just lost 12 million in BCFC, which isn't his speciality...would you not agree? He states it's a gamble to get his moneyback, with the new stadium. He can afford to make the gamble and swallow the loss if it doesn't work out.

However...Before the new Stadium plans, SL never made any reference to selling the Club or moving on. Of which he is doing plenty of these days, although 'reassuring' fans it won't be sold to non pro active buyers. Read between the lines. Why make such statements if it was never asked or suspected. Covering one's ass to justify and appease the masses is a skill which seems to be working.

Though I'm sure you'll accuse me of being a blinkered lemming, I think that is a massive smoke screen aimed at the council. He is using his financial muscle to try get the stadium approved.

I'm sure Bristol gets a lot of gain from Lansdown investing here as opposed to Guernsy for example?

[spudski]

it's perfectly clear now.... what you think will happen is FACT, if people disagree with you they are spouting rubbish as they cannot provide proof of what will happen in the future.

Saturday's lottery numbers please?

How much do you want to bet on it...seriously.

[spudski]

Though I'm sure you'll accuse me of being a blinkered lemming, I think that is a massive smoke screen aimed at the council. He is using his financial muscle to try get the stadium approved.

I'm sure Bristol gets a lot of gain from Lansdown investing here as opposed to Guernsy for example?

Again...your assumption. Everyone has just gone along with what SL says. As soon as someone challenges it, you get shot down. Give me figures, proof, market research...something. It's all just assumption and speculation.

If people really wanted to see Premier League football as much as being put about, they would have travelled to Villa, Southampton, Portsmouth and Reading.

[shamussy]

Sorry but one reason for poor attendances and that is the cost... £30 quid per ticket to see championship football just isnt viable, I had a ST for years and enjoyed going but now its just too expensive. I used to ask mates and colleagues new to the area to come watch games and they did, but i'm too embarassed to ask them now because if they get enthusiastic and then find out its 30 smackers it would just be embarrassing.

I would happily watch our club play a lower standard and thrive playing local players topped up with some decent footballers. I enjoyed being near the top of league 1 and some of the attacking football we played was fantastic. Too much money now going to players. Fact!

[Fiale]

2008/2009 we were averaging crowds of just under 17000 (our highest crowd 18456) - So we would need another 3000 people to come to get attendances of 20,000 (though why it has to be 20,000 I have no idea - does it matter, as long at there is a good atmosphere and people had a great day out?) Sponsorship and Hospitality will be around 1000 people per game alone... ok they are not necessarily what you would call fans, but they are paying bums on (very comfy)seats.

We cannot know what will happen tomorrow, we can only guess (hell we may not even wake up) so we live life on assumptions and best guesses based on similar events and circumstances in the past. So based on that (which is the best we are likely to get) we are just as likely to get 20,000 fans per game than not ;-)

[Portland Bill]

Spudski, you may go and watch Man yoo etc etc but don't try and claim that us in the west country aren't clued up.

We know the score, we know were not a big club, we know were looked on as a small club by most.

Half of Man yoo's support travels from all over the country and beyond!, so when people tell you that our support will come from all over the west, believe them because it's true.

One other point, your claim that Cardiff could get 40,000 plus contradicts what you are saying. Only 10 years ago they averaged

5,000, since moving to there new ground its now 20,000, but you claim a new ground doesnt make any difference!!!

[Fiale]

Again...your assumption. Everyone has just gone along with what SL says. As soon as someone challenges it, you get shot down. Give me figures, proof, market research...something. It's all just assumption and speculation.

If people really wanted to see Premier League football as much as being put about, they would have travelled to Villa, Southampton, Portsmouth and Reading.

They do, 1000s of fans take coaches to Premier League matches every week from Bristol, Nailsea, Clevedon, Weston, Stroud, Burnham, Bridewater and Bath (hell occasionally I am one of them)- there is a huge market for any club in the South West that can consistently stay around the promotion spots in the top half of the Championship or in the Premier League

[spudski]

2008/2009 we were averaging crowds of just under 17000 (our highest crowd 18456) - So we would need another 3000 people to come to get attendances of 20,000 (though why it has to be 20,000 I have no idea - does it matter, as long at there is a good atmosphere and people had a great day out?) Sponsorship and Hospitality will be around 1000 people per game alone... ok they are not necessarily what you would call fans, but they are paying bums on (very comfy)seats.

We cannot know what will happen tomorrow, we can only guess (hell we may not even wake up) so we live life on assumptions and best guesses based on similar events and circumstances in the past. So based on that (which is the best we are likely to get) we are just as likely to get 20,000 fans per game than not ;-)

How do you know there will be 1000 in hospitality? This is the problem with this forum. Everyone assumes figures based on what? We have no history of top flight football apart from 30 years ago. Times have changed since then.

If someone could come up with facts, figures etc, i could take it. But people are just believing one mans spiel. You don't have to give details of where the facts come from, because i understand from commercial terms, where this is not viable. But no one on here has ever given fact or figures, based on anything bar assumptions or what SL has assumed.

[Nogbad the Bad]

I think I can remember you saying that you were around the last time we were in Division 1 (now premier league), can you remember the coaches that arrived from all over the west country, Taunton, Bridgwater, Minehead, Ilfracombe, Gloucester, Cheltenham, the list goes on.

That would happen again on an even bigger scale, football today is a different animal to what it used to be back then and people will do almost anything to watch premier league football now.

BCAGFC

We ought to consider whether this is something we City fans actively want though - twice the crowd but half of them either actively supporting the opposition or not caring either way who wins.

Thousands of premier league following spectators, rather than Bristol City fans, only there for the occasion and the day out like 50%+ of our Wembley/Millennium turnouts.

Doesn't sound like an improvement to my day out watching City, the thought of being amongst 14,000 Bristol City fanatics in the Championship at Ashton Gate is far more appealing.

[Jordan Tansley]

Again...your assumption. Everyone has just gone along with what SL says. As soon as someone challenges it, you get shot down. Give me figures, proof, market research...something. It's all just assumption and speculation.

If people really wanted to see Premier League football as much as being put about, they would have travelled to Villa, Southampton, Portsmouth and Reading.

and your opinion is just ASSUMPTION! you have NO PROOF what so ever!!

I'm done with replying to you on this thread until you accept that nobody has proof of their opinion on here. ESPECIALLY YOU! this is a place for opinions, for talking about football and having arguments/discussions. If your criteria for valid arguments is for bonified proof and facts then this place would have no posts at all.

Look, I dont want this to turn into a slanging match, I respect your opinion. What I dont respect is hypocracy. If my arguments are invalid on the basis that it has no presentable proof, then yours are equally weak.

[Portland Bill]

If people really wanted to see Premier League football as much as being put about, they would have travelled to Villa, Southampton, Portsmouth and Reading.

Bristol City fans would not have, why would I want to go and watch anyone else play in that league.

Most overhyped league in the world IMO.

[Jordan Tansley]

We ought to consider whether this is something we City fans actively want though - twice the crowd but half of them either actively supporting the opposition or not caring either way who wins.

Thousands of premier league following spectators, rather than Bristol City fans, only there for the occasion and the day out like 50%+ of our Wembley/Millennium turnouts.

Doesn't sound like an improvement to my day out watching City, the thought of being amongst 14,000 Bristol City fanatics in the Championship at Ashton Gate is far more appealing.

it would be an improvement to my day out to see us supported by those who would usually following glory (usually means some form of glory has come our way)

it would be an improvement to my day if I was in a top class venue, Not a decaying dump. (I'm being overly critical of ashton gate, I do love it. but it isn't a very good stadium)

it would be an improvement to my day if I was watching a higher standard of football/opposition.

It's not all about you. More fans want it than not. stop being so selfish.

[shamussy]

Here is your market research

Cardiff

Average Attendance:

2009-2010: 20,717 (Championship League)

2008-2009: 18,449 (Championship League)

2007-2008: 13,939 (Championship League)

Higher attendances since opening stadium

Bolton lowest attendance 1996 (6367) vs Bristol City

average now roughly 4-5k higher

Now stop winding us all up and do your own market rersearch saying otherwise

[spudski]

and your opinion is just ASSUMPTION! you have NO PROOF what so ever!!

I'm done with replying to you on this thread until you accept that nobody has proof of their opinion on here. ESPECIALLY YOU! this is a place for opinions, for talking about football and having arguments/discussions. If your criteria for valid arguments is for bonified proof and facts then this place would have no posts at all.

Look, I dont want this to turn into a slanging match, I respect your opinion. What I dont respect is hypocracy. If my arguments are invalid on the basis that it has no presentable proof, then yours are equally weak.

Your Opinion is just as important as anyone elses is.

The point i am making is that we have a Chairman, who has stated certain specifics, but has never backed it up with fact, figures etc.

I'm not saying he is wrong... I would just like to give my support to something that has some depth rather than just words. Too many grey areas for my liking. SL is a great Chairman...no doubt.But he has won the faith and respect of City fans, rightfully due, but many have stopped questioning his decisions. He is now in a very powerful position regarding our Clubs future. I am not one for just going along with things. BCFC is bigger than SL however good he has done for this Club.Lets not forget that.

y

[Frome Valley]

I am sure if you searched the otib/football league website archives you would find them very easily.

Did you reply to the new stadium surveys?, there were AT LEAST 2 of them.

BCAGFC

The two ST surveys relating to the proposed new ground did not ask what would make fans attend more reguarly.

The 2006 survey related to the experience of attending Ashton Gate not a future ground.

[BCAGFC]

I would just like to add that all the coaches that arrived from all over the west country were supporting Bristol City Football Club NOT the opposition.

If our club was successful we would surpass the Boltons, Wigans, Burnleys & PNEs.

BCAGFC

[spudski]

it would be an improvement to my day out to see us supported by those who would usually following glory (usually means some form of glory has come our way)

it would be an improvement to my day if I was in a top class venue, Not a decaying dump. (I'm being overly critical of ashton gate, I do love it. but it isn't a very good stadium)

it would be an improvement to my day if I was watching a higher standard of football/opposition.

It's not all about you. More fans want it than not. stop being so selfish.

Apart from modern aesthetics and hospitality...what is wrong with our Stadium? What do you want that AV will give you, that AG hasn't?

[Frome Valley]

Here is your market research

Cardiff

Average Attendance:

2009-2010: 20,717 (Championship League)

2008-2009: 18,449 (Championship League)

2007-2008: 13,939 (Championship League)

Higher attendances since opening stadium

Bolton lowest attendance 1996 (6367) vs Bristol City

average now roughly 4-5k higher

Now stop winding us all up and do your own market rersearch saying otherwise

An increase stimulated by pricing structures[fixed prices for season tickets and price reductions]at Ninian Park followed by a much smaller increase when moving to a new ground. Some clubs do experience drops in attendance in a short space of time as well.

[Portland Bill]

I would just like to add that all the coaches that arrived from all over the west country were supporting Bristol City Football Club NOT the opposition.

If our club was successful we would surpass the Boltons, Wigans, Burnleys & PNEs.

BCAGFC

I can clearly remember 2 coaches just from Bridgwater going to AG in the late 70's.

Just in this town we have big support and many more have said to me that a new stadium would attract them.

Look at Taunton, big City support there as well.

[spudski]

I would just like to add that all the coaches that arrived from all over the west country were supporting Bristol City Football Club NOT the opposition.

If our club was successful we would surpass the Boltons, Wigans, Burnleys & PNEs.

BCAGFC

Jeeze mate...how do you know that? The population is massive up here, regardless of the amount of Football Clubs. Football is a religion up here, compared to Bristol, where it is just a passing thought. Seriously... I lived in Bristol for 42 years and have been in The North for 3, and it has really opened my eyes to what we really are, regardless of untapped population.

[WellRedPhil]

In all honesty, regardless of AV, or a revamped AG, do you really think BCFC, can attract more than 20,000 week in, week out on a regular basis, regardless of what league we are in?

Yes, but only in the Prem. I don't believe we'd average 20,000 + at AV in the Championship. I think average attendance would be boosted by around 2,000 and obviously the first few months in the new Stadium we'd probably attract big crowds. PL football at the Vale is a different story. I'd imagine we'd average somewhere in the region of 20,000-25,000, pulling in sell out crowds for United/Liverpool etc. and having significantly less for the games against Wigan/Stoke etc. Obviously other factors such as our position in the league and how important a certain fixture is will change things.

I don't think we'd sell out 30,000 at AV every week, or even be close. However I also think we'd easily get 20,000 if in the PL, but not if we remain in the Championship, no matter where we're playing.

I also think there's a lot of unneccessary exaggerations in this thread. We are not a 'joke' or anything like that Spudski. We are a decent sized outfit who spent a lot more time in League 1 than we probably should've. We're by no means a big club but we're not a little football league club either. Ashton Gate isn't a 'piss poor' stadium either. If the Gate is considered 'piss poor' then around 60 grounds in the football league are which is not the case. It's not a super-stadium but it holds close to 20,000. We're Bristol City so what do some people expect? It's hardly considerably worse than most Championship grounds and I'd rather have this as our home than some washed out bowl like the Ricoh. One of the things that is nice about the proposed AV Stadium is that it actually has a bit of character and the stands are clear-cut and different from one another. I'd hate to occupy a half-empty bowl each week which is identical from ever area of the terrace; or should I say seated accomodation...

[Nogbad the Bad]

it would be an improvement to my day out to see us supported by those who would usually following glory (usually means some form of glory has come our way)

it would be an improvement to my day if I was in a top class venue, Not a decaying dump. (I'm being overly critical of ashton gate, I do love it. but it isn't a very good stadium)

it would be an improvement to my day if I was watching a higher standard of football/opposition.

It's not all about you. More fans want it than not. stop being so selfish.

Jordan, as far as my opinion and enjoyment of watching City is concerned of course it is all about me. Selfish? - do you actually think my opinion is going to make any difference?

As for all the glory hunters who will suddenly switch to a successful BCFC, I've had patio doors fitted recently. The fitter was a Bristolian and we started talking football. Turned out he's a long term Liverpool fan and has season tickets at Anfield for him and his 3 children. He's not interested in City (or Rovers)

Last year we had a patio laid. The labourer was a 19 year old from Nailsea, born and bred. I could make out part of a tattoo on his arm and asked if he followed City. He lifted up his sleeve to show the Chelsea badge. Him and his Bristolian Dad have followed them around the country since he was little. He's not interested in City.

A builder we had for many years was a Manchester Utd. supporting Bristolian, supported them since the George Best days, the list goes on .................. we have had countless local workman doing any number of jobs over the last 20 years and I can only think of one who followed City or Rovers - a City fan who I thought was as fanatical as me but then one time he turned up and he'd given up on City and took his son to see Aston Villa instead.

There are glory hunters in Bristol but there are also thousands of entrenched long term supporters of other clubs who have brought up their children to be completely disinterested in BCFC.

These people will never support Bristol City. Premier League or not.

[Jordan Tansley]

Apart from modern aesthetics and hospitality...what is wrong with our Stadium? What do you want that AV will give you, that AG hasn't?

accessability, Parking, refreshments, exits, room to sit on my seat, the opportunity to have a beer within the ground and not have to walk a mile to the DEH.

I was joking when calling it a dump, I love Ashton Gate, some of the most enjoyable moments of my life have happened there. But it, like many fans of the club is stuck in the past.

[Jordan Tansley]

Jordan, as far as my opinion and enjoyment of watching City is concerned of course it is all about me. Selfish? - do you actually think my opinion is going to make any difference?

As for all the glory hunters who will suddenly switch to a successful BCFC, I've had patio doors fitted recently. The fitter was a Bristolian and we started talking football. Turned out he's a long term Liverpool fan and has season tickets at Anfield for him and his 3 children. He's not interested in City (or Rovers)

Last year we had a patio laid. The labourer was a 19 year old from Nailsea, born and bred. I could make out part of a tattoo on his arm and asked if he followed City. He lifted up his sleeve to show the Chelsea badge. Him and his Bristolian Dad have followed them around the country since he was little. He's not interested in City.

A builder we had for many years was a Manchester Utd. supporting Bristolian, supported them since the George Best days, the list goes on .................. we have had countless local workman doing any number of jobs over the last 20 years and I can only think of one who followed City or Rovers - a City fan who I thought was as fanatical as me but then one time he turned up and he'd given up on City and took his son to see Aston Villa instead.

There are glory hunters in Bristol but there are also thousands of entrenched long term supporters of other clubs who have brought up their children to be completely disinterested in BCFC.

These people will never support Bristol City. Premier League or not.

The generation you talk of has been and gone, we missed out on them years ago. Stop being so shortsighted!!

it's the kids, the undecided masses.

In the pub near me, its only full when Wanc U are on TV. Have 90% of them even been to manchester? No... Would they take an interest in a local team playing in the division that attracts the most interest in the world? Probably!!! That's the support we need to latch on to.

The selfish comment was tongue in cheek... I assumed the Smiley would be suffice in portraying that... evidently not.