Toffs Row At Ascot

[Red Knowle]

Toffs??!! Are you winding us up!

no.

ob have turned a blind eye to toff fighting at ascot with weapons while at city the police spend months looking for people who threw the odd punch v leeds.

one law for toffs another for football fans

[spudski]

What an absurd post. So football fans that travel to away games and are subjected to hostile treatment by police because their loyal to their Clubs are lemmings and idiots?

Ignorant, ignorant c ** t.

Thanks for that mate...what a nice response. No wonder the police are hostile towards 'fans' of football, if that is the type of person they have to generally deal with.

Ignorant...Lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about something in particular.

Somehow i don't think i lack knowledge when it comes to Football fans and their behavior. I've followed BCFC all over the Country and also Lazio throughout Italy. I've been to two World Cups and watched football throughout Europe and Argentina and Brazil.

I've gone to watch Golf, Tennis, Horse Racing, Cricket, Rugby, Polo, Speedway, F1 and numerous other sports on a regular basis, and not once have i been treated like i have been, when i've gone to watch Football. The difference being, that many Football fans are socially inept and don't know how to behave properly, and think it's exceptable to behave however they like, regardless of who it offends or hurts. That's why the Police throughout the World target Football 'fans'.

BTW...you've got it easy here. Policing in Europe at Football grounds is hostile. The Police in Italy for example, wear face masks and no identifying numbers or marks. So they cannot be identified when carrying out needless beatings on peaceful bystanders.

So before you go calling people ignorant ***** that you don't know... I suggest you wind your neck in, and actually get out of your bubble you call a life... and actually live up to your forum name and actually get 'Well Read'...or get a life outside of Bristol. Forum Muppet...what a ******* loser.

[TRL]

Thanks for that mate...what a nice response. No wonder the police are hostile towards 'fans' of football, if that is the type of person they have to generally deal with.

Ignorant...Lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about something in particular.

Somehow i don't think i lack knowledge when it comes to Football fans and their behavior. I've followed BCFC all over the Country and also Lazio throughout Italy. I've been to two World Cups and watched football throughout Europe and Argentina and Brazil.

I've gone to watch Golf, Tennis, Horse Racing, Cricket, Rugby, Polo, Speedway, F1 and numerous other sports on a regular basis, and not once have i been treated like i have been, when i've gone to watch Football. The difference being, that many Football fans are socially inept and don't know how to behave properly, and think it's exceptable to behave however they like, regardless of who it offends or hurts. That's why the Police throughout the World target Football 'fans'.

BTW...you've got it easy here. Policing in Europe at Football grounds is hostile. The Police in Italy for example, wear face masks and no identifying numbers or marks. So they cannot be identified when carrying out needless beatings on peaceful bystanders.

So before you go calling people ignorant ***** that you don't know... I suggest you wind your neck in, and actually get out of your bubble you call a life... and actually live up to your forum name and actually get 'Well Read'...or get a life outside of Bristol. Forum Muppet...what a ******* loser.

Well said Spudski. In fact i would say this is probably the best post i have read on this forum in years.

[Frome Valley]

Ignorant...Lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about something in particular.

BTW...you've got it easy here. Policing in Europe at Football grounds is hostile. The Police in Italy for example, wear face masks and no identifying numbers or marks. So they cannot be identified when carrying out needless beatings on peaceful bystanders.

Having travelled all round Europe watching football it has always struck me how lax policing is abroad.

European supports have freedoms football fans in this Country waved goodbye to many years ago.

[Mr Mosquito]

European supports have freedoms football fans in this Country waved goodbye to many years ago.

Indeed, football supporters in continental European countries have the freedom to sing and chant on football terracing. Was it about 15 years ago when we lost our terracing at Ashton Gate?

[TRL]

Indeed, football supporters in continental European countries have the freedom to sing and chant on football terracing. Was it about 15 years ago when we lost our terracing at Ashton Gate?

About that. I think if i remember rightly St Pauli in Germany had terracing incorporated into their new stadium design, wouldn't get that here.

When terracing went in the uk was the day that supporting Bristol City really died for me. Yes I watch them, but the excitement left me when the terracing went. yes we have had a couple of games since where the atmosphere was good such as Hartlepool in the Play off semi, but the days when the noise from the eastend when on form was intense has long gone, even the terracing that was at the front of the williams puts the current eastend to shame. Sad but true

[Frome Valley]

Indeed, football supporters in continental European countries have the freedom to sing and chant on football terracing. Was it about 15 years ago when we lost our terracing at Ashton Gate?

Can't even remember now when the terracing went, seems like a different era.

Whole football culture has been erased by the FA, police and health and safety parasites.

Pyrotechnics at Glastonbury in the crowd v bans for bangers at Peterboro. More double standards.

[TRL]

Can't even remember now when the terracing went, seems like a different era.

Whole football culture has been erased by the FA, police and health and safety parasites.

Pyrotechnics at Glastonbury in the crowd v bans for bangers at Peterboro. More double standards.

but flip it and the behaviour of football fans has generally bought the current state of stadiums on themselves.

If there was no violence they we would be no need to police it. As much as I am loathed to say it, all of the shite we have to put up with now in terms of poor attendances, poor atmosphere and all seated stadia can be laid squarely at the door of the trouble making fan.

People can bleat on about police, and the law, but if there was no trouble in the first place, if fans didn't think about beating people up just because of some chants, then there would be no need to police football fans as they do now.

We bought it upon ourselves, and the sooner we realise that rather than blaming police government and the law the better.

Shame is most people never take responsibility for therr actions. the amount of times I have have seen police blamed for heavy handed action on here is unbelievable. most of the time they are protecting the general public from knuckle dragging football thugs. Yes there are bad cops who go out of thier way to harrass football fans, but a great majority of the time, police are reacting to thugs, in interest of the general public.

Remember every action provokes a reaction....nad reactions lead to policies.... and that is where we find ourselves now

[Frome Valley]

but flip it and the behaviour of football fans has generally bought the current state of stadiums on themselves.

If there was no violence they we would be no need to police it. As much as I am loathed to say it, all of the shite we have to put up with now in terms of poor attendances, poor atmosphere and all seated stadia can be laid squarely at the door of the trouble making fan.

People can bleat on about police, and the law, but if there was no trouble in the first place, if fans didn't think about beating people up just because of some chants, then there would be no need to police football fans as they do now.

We bought it upon ourselves, and the sooner we realise that rather than blaming police government and the law the better.

Shame is most people never take responsibility for therr actions. the amount of times I have have seen police blamed for heavy handed action on here is unbelievable. most of the time they are protecting the general public from knuckle dragging football thugs. Yes there are bad cops who go out of thier way to harrass football fans, but a great majority of the time, police are reacting to thugs, in interest of the general public.

Remember every action provokes a reaction....nad reactions lead to policies.... and that is where we find ourselves now

Major change to football stadia in England was brought about by the Taylor report whoich highlighted the poor policing at football.

Health and safety culture is a disease and many of the rules are idiotic e.g flame retardent flags in non smoking stadiums.

Police will always find something to police at football in this country. No excuses for the uneven treatment as highlighted in the first post.

[TRL]

Major change to football stadia in England was brought about by the Taylor report whoich highlighted the poor policing at football.

Health and safety culture is a disease and many of the rules are idiotic e.g flame retardent flags in non smoking stadiums.

Police will always find something to police at football in this country. No excuses for the uneven treatment as highlighted in the first post.

i go back to every action there is a reaction.

If fans hadn't rushed the gates at hillsborough, many without tickets, then the choices made by the police may well have been different. who knows? they are human after all. but their hand was forced to open the gates, or more could have been killed outside the stadium. Fans have to take some responsibility, but unfortunately fans always look to blame the police. yes sometimes they are wrong, other times they are right.

at hillsborough blame was apportioned to the police, if there were no fans fighting and pushing at the gates trying to get into the game with no tickets would there have been a problem? If you want to apportion blame then you blame the fans the stadium manager for not organising entrance to the stadium adequately and the ref for not delaying the match... not the police for opening gates to try and stop people from being stampeded and crushed at the turn styles.

[Bris Red]

i go back to every action there is a reaction.

If fans hadn't rushed the gates at hillsborough, many without tickets, then the choices made by the police may well have been different. who knows? they are human after all. but their hand was forced to open the gates, or more could have been killed outside the stadium. Fans have to take some responsibility, but unfortunately fans always look to blame the police. yes sometimes they are wrong, other times they are right.

at hillsborough blame was apportioned to the police, if there were no fans fighting and pushing at the gates trying to get into the game with no tickets would there have been a problem? If you want to apportion blame then you blame the fans the stadium manager for not organising entrance to the stadium adequately and the ref for not delaying the match... not the police for opening gates to try and stop people from being stampeded and crushed at the turn styles.

Back to your point about fans bringing it on themselves, it was football violence that brought about the crush barriers placed at the front of stands in the first place. No crush barriers would have meant no Hillsborough disaster. So in a round about way the actions of hooligans actually caused the death of those 96 fans, nothing to do with the police or whatever other bollox storys you hear about that day. If the barriers were not there the fans would have just spilled out on to the pitch. But because of the weekly pitch invasions that happened back then the clubs were given no option but to erect these barriers.

Personally i have said all along if people want to have a row and get themselves beat up and injured over a football match then fair play aslong as the average fan isn't caught up in it.I have friends that to this day are still involved in fooball violence. Its a way of life for them and for many.

The truth is if the police did slowly start to relax things again it would descend back to the 70's and 80's. The hooligan eliminate is still very much there and the plod know this. Hence the reason the police and government have no time for us, you only have to look at how they completly ignore the safe standing campaign even though it makes perfect sense.

[Barrs Court Red]

Trouble at horse racing is probably a red herring if wishing to highlight the poor way in which football fans are treated.

Lady's and gentlemen I givevyou exhibit b, the 6 nations, in particular Wales fans. Mass arrests? Banning orders? Escorts?

Nah just "high spirited" rugger boys letting off some steam in the eyes of the authorities.

[Frome Valley]

If fans hadn't rushed the gates at hillsborough, many without tickets, then the choices made by the police may well have been different. who knows? they are human after all. but their hand was forced to open the gates, or more could have been killed outside the stadium. Fans have to take some responsibility, but unfortunately fans always look to blame the police. yes sometimes they are wrong, other times they are right.

at hillsborough blame was apportioned to the police, if there were no fans fighting and pushing at the gates trying to get into the game with no tickets would there have been a problem? If you want to apportion blame then you blame the fans the stadium manager for not organising entrance to the stadium adequately and the ref for not delaying the match... not the police for opening gates to try and stop people from being stampeded and crushed at the turn styles.

Congratulations that is the most ignorant post on here I think I have ever read.

[Blagdon red]

i go back to every action there is a reaction.

If fans hadn't rushed the gates at hillsborough, many without tickets, then the choices made by the police may well have been different. who knows? they are human after all. but their hand was forced to open the gates, or more could have been killed outside the stadium. Fans have to take some responsibility, but unfortunately fans always look to blame the police. yes sometimes they are wrong, other times they are right.

at hillsborough blame was apportioned to the police, if there were no fans fighting and pushing at the gates trying to get into the game with no tickets would there have been a problem? If you want to apportion blame then you blame the fans the stadium manager for not organising entrance to the stadium adequately and the ref for not delaying the match... not the police for opening gates to try and stop people from being stampeded and crushed at the turn styles.

Mr TRL, may I suggest that you read Lord Justice Taylor's report. Your statements of supposed fact re fans without tickets / fighting are incorrect.

Taylor Report

You may also find it illuminating to read, compare and contrast this report with the findings of the South African report on the Ellis Park disaster of 2001:

Ellis Park report

[TRL]

Mr TRL, may I suggest that you read Lord Justice Taylor's report. Your statements of supposed fact re fans without tickets / fighting are incorrect.

Taylor Report

You may also find it illuminating to read, compare and contrast this report with the findings of the South African report on the Ellis Park disaster of 2001:

Ellis Park report

my facts come from being there, no need to read reports. i eye witnessed it. So read all the reports you want, and all the media coverage you want. i state my opinion from 1st hand facts not 2nd hand hearsay

[TRL]

Congratulations that is the most ignorant post on here I think I have ever read.

But factual unfortunately

[Mr Mosquito]

i go back to every action there is a reaction.

If fans hadn't rushed the gates at hillsborough, many without tickets, then the choices made by the police may well have been different. who knows? they are human after all. but their hand was forced to open the gates, or more could have been killed outside the stadium. Fans have to take some responsibility, but unfortunately fans always look to blame the police. yes sometimes they are wrong, other times they are right.

at hillsborough blame was apportioned to the police, if there were no fans fighting and pushing at the gates trying to get into the game with no tickets would there have been a problem? If you want to apportion blame then you blame the fans the stadium manager for not organising entrance to the stadium adequately and the ref for not delaying the match... not the police for opening gates to try and stop people from being stampeded and crushed at the turn styles.

You just seem to be repeating a known lie as told by Chief Supt David Duckenfield, the infamous Hillsborough match Police commander.........

"Not long after 3.15pm, after the match had been abandoned, Duckenfield told representatives of the Football Association, including the chief executive, Graham Kelly, that Liverpool fans had forced Gate C, causing an inrush into the stadium, down the tunnel, into the backs of those already in the central pens. Duckenfield stated later that, 'The blunt truth [was] that we had been asked to open a gate. I was not being deceitful… we were all in a state of shock.' He continued, 'I just thought at that stage that I should not communicate fully the situation… I may have misled Mr Kelly.' He did.

Kelly unwittingly and in good faith repeated Duckenfield's lie to the waiting media. Within minutes it was broadcast around the world: an appalling disaster was happening, and Liverpool fans were to blame."

Source: http://www.telegraph...never-heal.html

[WellRedPhil]

Thanks for that mate...what a nice response. No wonder the police are hostile towards 'fans' of football, if that is the type of person they have to generally deal with.

Ignorant...Lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about something in particular.

Somehow i don't think i lack knowledge when it comes to Football fans and their behavior. I've followed BCFC all over the Country and also Lazio throughout Italy. I've been to two World Cups and watched football throughout Europe and Argentina and Brazil.

I've gone to watch Golf, Tennis, Horse Racing, Cricket, Rugby, Polo, Speedway, F1 and numerous other sports on a regular basis, and not once have i been treated like i have been, when i've gone to watch Football. The difference being, that many Football fans are socially inept and don't know how to behave properly, and think it's exceptable to behave however they like, regardless of who it offends or hurts. That's why the Police throughout the World target Football 'fans'.

BTW...you've got it easy here. Policing in Europe at Football grounds is hostile. The Police in Italy for example, wear face masks and no identifying numbers or marks. So they cannot be identified when carrying out needless beatings on peaceful bystanders.

So before you go calling people ignorant ***** that you don't know... I suggest you wind your neck in, and actually get out of your bubble you call a life... and actually live up to your forum name and actually get 'Well Read'...or get a life outside of Bristol. Forum Muppet...what a ******* loser.

Another essay? Really? You write so much but say so little, not a great trait for a forum. What I was referring to if you were able to understand my post was you calling football fans that support the Club they're devoted to "muppets" for doing so. That's ignorant in my opinion. What is the point in bringing up Italian football? It's still a completely different culture. Fighting occurs regularly, the Police react in brutal ways and it is a completely different scene to British football at the moment.

You say policing there is brutal and that is in response to the hostility of many crowds there. This level of aggression hasn't really been seen in England in a long time. Bar the West Ham v Millwall fixture last season, which was still not exactly a blood fest, there has been only minor bouts of football violence in the country. When we played Forest this season on a Tuesday night there were an absurd amount of Police and stewards there for the three or four hundred that had made the trip. They were obnoxious and looking for fault as they told people stood on the back row, in front of a wall, to sit down because they were causing a disturbance. Just what is the point in that?

I was rude in my first post but what you'd written strongly disagree with and it doesn't matter how many World Cups you've been to, that is in no way relevant to calling loyal City/football fans muppets. And "get out of my bubble of a life" or "get a life outside of Bristol"...what does that even mean? Your just spouting nonsense phrases for the sake of it. Someone called Spudski a name so they must live in a bubble and should get a life outside of Bristol. Classic.

[Frome Valley]

But factual unfortunately

Your "opinion" is nowhere to be found amongst Lord Justice Taylors "facts".

[Alex_BCFC]

I tend to agree with Spudski. I've been to quite a few sporting events and nothing is like football in terms of potential of, and actual, trouble occuring. And that is why it will always be heavily policed compared to other events.

[spudski]

Another essay? Really? You write so much but say so little, not a great trait for a forum. What I was referring to if you were able to understand my post was you calling football fans that support the Club they're devoted to "muppets" for doing so. That's ignorant in my opinion. What is the point in bringing up Italian football? It's still a completely different culture. Fighting occurs regularly, the Police react in brutal ways and it is a completely different scene to British football at the moment.

You say policing there is brutal and that is in response to the hostility of many crowds there. This level of aggression hasn't really been seen in England in a long time. Bar the West Ham v Millwall fixture last season, which was still not exactly a blood fest, there has been only minor bouts of football violence in the country. When we played Forest this season on a Tuesday night there were an absurd amount of Police and stewards there for the three or four hundred that had made the trip. They were obnoxious and looking for fault as they told people stood on the back row, in front of a wall, to sit down because they were causing a disturbance. Just what is the point in that?

I was rude in my first post but what you'd written strongly disagree with and it doesn't matter how many World Cups you've been to, that is in no way relevant to calling loyal City/football fans muppets. And "get out of my bubble of a life" or "get a life outside of Bristol"...what does that even mean? Your just spouting nonsense phrases for the sake of it. Someone called Spudski a name so they must live in a bubble and should get a life outside of Bristol. Classic.

Where in my post, did i call football fans 'muppets' for supporting their Team?

I refered to football fans as idiots, lemmings and muppets, for still going to games if they feel hard done by, by the Police or Club. It's a trait of people in this country to complain, but do nothing about it. If fans spoke with their feet, demonstrated or actually supported organisations that are trying to Kerb over zealous Policing, then something might change. But as it is, Fans it seem, just rant on Forums.

Being Pro active will change things, but people don't generally want to put the graft in. So things will stay the same.

I think some fans are misguided in their unconditional Support for their Club. Sometimes people need to sit back and realise, that many fans are being shafted by the Clubs and Police...but still they keep going and put up with it. They just winge about it, instead of doing something about it. Can you see the point i'm making? It's not a go at fans for supporting their Club 'per se', but for putting up with shit and not doing anything about it.

[Frome Valley]

Where in my post, did i call football fans 'muppets' for supporting their Team?

I refered to football fans as idiots, lemmings and muppets, for still going to games if they feel hard done by, by the Police or Club. It's a trait of people in this country to complain, but do nothing about it. If fans spoke with their feet, demonstrated or actually supported organisations that are trying to Kerb over zealous Policing, then something might change. But as it is, Fans it seem, just rant on Forums.

Being Pro active will change things, but people don't generally want to put the graft in. So things will stay the same.

I think some fans are misguided in their unconditional Support for their Club. Sometimes people need to sit back and realise, that many fans are being shafted by the Clubs and Police...but still they keep going and put up with it. They just winge about it, instead of doing something about it. Can you see the point i'm making? It's not a go at fans for supporting their Club 'per se', but for putting up with shit and not doing anything about it.

What do you do that makes you so different?

[spudski]

What do you do that makes you so different?

There are certain games that i won't go to if there is a history of Police mistreatment. I also won't go if i think a Club are taking the piss by hiking up their prices.

I also refuse to pay for a Polyester Club shirt, that imho is way overpriced and unjustified. But the price is what it is, because Clubs know that 'certain people' will pay the price, regardless of cost. Who's the fools?

Yes, I miss out on some things, but that is the price i would rather pay, than just going along with what i'm told i've got to do. It doesn't make me a worse or better Supporter. Just someone who won't put up with it regardless... There are many like me. But tbh...they refuse to even go now. They've just given up on being treated like a 3rd class citizen, and get their fix of football from watching it either at the pub or at home.

[Frome Valley]

There are certain games that i won't go to if there is a history of Police mistreatment. I also won't go if i think a Club are taking the piss by hiking up their prices.

I also refuse to pay for a Polyester Club shirt, that imho is way overpriced and unjustified. But the price is what it is, because Clubs know that 'certain people' will pay the price, regardless of cost. Who's the fools?

Yes, I miss out on some things, but that is the price i would rather pay, than just going along with what i'm told i've got to do. It doesn't make me a worse or better Supporter. Just someone who won't put up with it regardless... There are many like me. But tbh...they refuse to even go now. They've just given up on being treated like a 3rd class citizen, and get their fix of football from watching it either at the pub or at home.

Your weighty manifesto appears to be that you don't buy replica shirts which then seperates yourself from the "Idiots" and "lemmings".

[spudski]

Your weighty manifesto appears to be that you don't buy replica shirts which then seperates yourself from the "Idiots" and "lemmings".

That was just one example...it is purely my choice and only my opinion, when it comes to spending nearly £40 on a piece of polyester Advertising hoarding. If people want to spend that much on it, then so be it. But the price will never come down, only up. If football fans took a stand and refused to buy them for a season or two, then Clubs would sit up and take notice.

If people can afford to pay it, and don't mind paying it, then so be it. But how many fans do you hear saying how ridiculous the prices are, yet still they continue to buy them. In my book, that makes them an idiot or lemming for just going along with it. Where will it stop? It won't...unless people stop buying.

In the same anology...complaining about how one is treated at a Football match, and still continueing to go, doesn't make sense.

All the Policing and restrictions at Football games have come about as a reaction to general fan behavior. Unfortunately, it has been the idiots who spoil it for the normal football fan, and we all get treated with the same brush.

Fans of Clubs abroad have spoken with their feet, or protested/demonstrated and they have got results. We generally just winge and do nothing and except it. Who are the bigger fools? Why put up with it, season after season?

[glynriley]

Seriously Spudski , every post you make bangs on about how thing's are done 'abroad'. Be it superior coaching methods , tolerance levels of supporters etc.....

Ever thought about emigrating ??

[spudski]

Seriously Spudski , every post you make bangs on about how thing's are done 'abroad'. Be it superior coaching methods , tolerance levels of supporters etc.....

Ever thought about emigrating ??

It's a good analogy, of how people can get things done. Can you think of another example of fan power in this Country?

BTW...I already own property in Italy and i aim to retire their...so yes.

[glynriley]

arrivederci

[WellRedPhil]

Where in my post, did i call football fans 'muppets' for supporting their Team?

I refered to football fans as idiots, lemmings and muppets, for still going to games if they feel hard done by, by the Police or Club. It's a trait of people in this country to complain, but do nothing about it. If fans spoke with their feet, demonstrated or actually supported organisations that are trying to Kerb over zealous Policing, then something might change. But as it is, Fans it seem, just rant on Forums.

Being Pro active will change things, but people don't generally want to put the graft in. So things will stay the same.

I think some fans are misguided in their unconditional Support for their Club. Sometimes people need to sit back and realise, that many fans are being shafted by the Clubs and Police...but still they keep going and put up with it. They just winge about it, instead of doing something about it. Can you see the point i'm making? It's not a go at fans for supporting their Club 'per se', but for putting up with shit and not doing anything about it.

I can see the point you're trying to make but it's not very balanced. The small numbers that attend the Cardiff bubble match, which under normal circumstances would sell out with ease, have not yet brought about a fixture in which fans can travel there and back with freedom. Nor is it the best support to abandon supporting City away from home (which would more than likely achieve nothing anyway.) You keep mentioning how "foreign fans won't stand for this" and that they've been successful with various protests and demonstrations but how? I mean I'm genuinely interested. Where and when have fans achieved this and under what circumstances?

[bucksred]

What an absurd post. So football fans that travel to away games and are subjected to hostile treatment by police because their loyal to their Clubs are lemmings and idiots?

Ignorant, ignorant c ** t.

Why is it ignorant. Every time fans go to a game, some of the utter ***** who purport to support any club can and do cause problems. Whats wrong with that comment. Its you who is an ignorant, ignorant ****. If you take an attitude with the cops, you'll get it back. Ive been a biker for years, and although the cops dont like us, they realise we can behave ourselves and dont **** us off, unlike the neanderthals who still think its big and clever to ruck for their team and err their country in the name of Engerlaaand..