downendcity Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Not sticking up for anyone but GJ is now only 5 places away from the conference with Northampton. We had two lucky seasons with GJ and I never thought we actually controlled games. It was lucky that SL appointed a manager with the balls to do what was needed to change the club from top to bottom when he first came in. It was lucky that GJ changed the culture at the club to make us more professional, so that the player's knew who was the boss and that they coudn't carry on as they liked. Some of them ( and some of our fans) didn't like that and we had to go through a 9 game losing streak before the club could progress but it was lucky that GJ was prepared to take the flack to see that through. It was lucky that GJ restorted a sense of pride in the club. It was lucky that GJ had the ability to get a team to perform to a level greater than that of the individual players. It was lucky that the press constantly reported about the quality of our football and that fans of other clubs respected the way we played. It was lucky that we had a manager with the personality and charecter to galvanise fans support. Yes there are things he could have done differently or better, and when things went sour at the end he had to go. With his charecter and personality he was bound to rub some people up the wrong way, and there were many just waiting for things to go wrong as a result and which didn't help his cause . However, to say he had a couple of lucky seasons is more than disingenuous to probably our best manager in over 20 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strictly Obi Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 I think that quality football was skewed because of the euphoria surrounding our promotion. I clearly remember our promotion season and I thought we we average all season. The fact S****horpe won the league shows how poor that league was that season. I thought we were heading for the play offs again and for us that would have been a bad season. We had a good run in march. We won many games one nil. If Forest didn't bottle it as usual we would have been confined to the play offs. I was surprised but delighted we got promoted. We had seen dire at AG for years so seeing a successful through ball was bound to excite fans. Base games and season on the merits and nothing else then yes it was decent football but not like Arsenal and against weak opposition. In our first season in the CCC the whole club had a buzz about it and I will admit I bloody loved it and got carried away with it. Johnson knew how to talk and brainwash people. He wasn't called delboy by many for no reason. He could convince you we played like Arsenal even if we played more like Arsenal. He also managed to get vast amounts of money out of our chairman. Remember in the play off year our GD was +1. That says it all about our Arsenal like football. Johnson was a very good motivator and I would say his methods were much like Brian Cloughs. It worked for a while and with limited ability players. However in this day and age Cloughs way will not work over a prolonged period of time. It all went wrong for Johnson when expectation levels rose. Play Off final onwards. He did not have the abiity to handle the modern footballer. Basso, Trundle, Carle, Sno, McIndoe etc. Things like throwing cups of tea around the dressing room unfortunately do not work in the modern game and that was Johnson's style. Eventually at Plymouth he allegedly come on stuck with his methods. Think back to our league one days, Would you after 9 years of away trips to chesterfield and the like taken a relegation battle in the championship? I would bet my house that 99.9% would have taken it. Nothing wrong with ambition but a touch of realism is also needed. Funny that because it all started to go down hill for GJ when in our second CCC season his tactics was to get a goal and try and hold on for it. Sometimes even for 75 minutes. Many started to complain about his tactics and when the wins dried up we suffered heavy defeats. Good money was thrown after bad. Our creative players were shipped out or not played and had GJ not left I believe we would have gone down without a doubt. We are still recovering from that dark period today. I'm not a GJ hater I will always appreciate where he got us, Feel the club should have replaced him sooner whilst our stock was high but hey ho. He shook this club up when we needed it. At the time it was easy to slate him or some easy to be loyal to him after what he did. Now that time has passed it's easy to look back on it and able to offer a balanced view. Some things he did well and some things he did bad. I would also suggest others were to blame. The board for giving him a open cheque and possibly even Keith. We will never know for sure what happened behind the scenes. Basso and Trundle have hinted and I feel with the return on Basso we may be about to hear some more. A book by say Hartley would be intriguing. Let's face it, if Keef gets the sack he ain't going to get another managerial position in the football league.....conference maybe. The fact you are still trying to make excuses for him is laughable. I would suggest his day's are numbered. The board ain't backing him, neither are the players from what i've seen. And you can't compare him to GJ cos Keefs achieved nowt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy082005 Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Let's face it, if Keef gets the sack he ain't going to get another managerial position in the football league.....conference maybe. The fact you are still trying to make excuses for him is laughable. I would suggest his day's are numbered. The board ain't backing him, neither are the players from what i've seen. And you can't compare him to GJ cos Keefs achieved nowt! I agree. I cannot understand where some fans get this belief in Keith, yet make out GJ was some kind of fraud. Keith is a terrible manager, and was an average coach. As you said, he wouldnt get another managers job in the football league, and....if we dont take at least 4 points from our next two homes games.....I expect us to be looking for a new manager come Wednesday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syco Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Let's face it, if Keef gets the sack he ain't going to get another managerial position in the football league.....conference maybe. The fact you are still trying to make excuses for him is laughable. I would suggest his day's are numbered. The board ain't backing him, neither are the players from what i've seen. And you can't compare him to GJ cos Keefs achieved nowt! Not denying our achievements at all at at the time I was pro GJ. BUT looking back now whilst not in the bubble it's easy to have a balenced view. Not the best at percentages but in the championship Keiths win rate is something like 37%. GJ's win rate in the Championship was 42%. We can't compare achievements but we can compare percentages and although Keith's is slightly lower he has had to spend a considerable amount less than GJ did and I would say the Championship has been stronger the past two years than it was when GJ was in charge. As Championship managers they are on a par and I would say as he has age on his side he has age on his side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRL Posted September 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Not denying our achievements at all at at the time I was pro GJ. BUT looking back now whilst not in the bubble it's easy to have a balenced view. Not the best at percentages but in the championship Keiths win rate is something like 37%. GJ's win rate in the Championship was 42%. We can't compare achievements but we can compare percentages and although Keith's is slightly lower he has had to spend a considerable amount less than GJ did and I would say the Championship has been stronger the past two years than it was when GJ was in charge. As Championship managers they are on a par and I would say as he has age on his side he has age on his side. Johnson had a 40% win ratio, Millen 56% in his caretaker spell, 33% in his current spell. What it proves, I don't know. Apart from Millen needs to improve his win ratio, which is one thing we all agree on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 It was his character rather than his management ability. A car sales man would have had the same successes. You know what Syco? I'm beginning to enjoy your posts more and more. I see you have a small number of posts. Were you on here previously under another username? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riaz Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 You know what Syco? I'm beginning to enjoy your post more and more. I see you have a small number of posts. Were you on here previously under another username? If GJ was no better than a cars salesman - what does that make Millen and Danny Wilson? Binmen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRL Posted September 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 If GJ was no better than a cars salesman - what does that make Millen and Danny Wilson? Binmen? . Th had the personality to invigorate the club and got the forward momentum. He got the team playing as a team not individuals, for that he must be commended. I don't think he had the right personality to be respected enough when things were going against him, also he was very rigid with his tactics, he took us as far as I think he could. Millen now he I think is missing something personality wise, he can't get fans motivated in the same way, this could be a problem for the club. I think tatically he is better than gj. And more open to trying different formations and players. In the long term I believe he can be a good manager.... But does he have the personality to drive forward his ideas and get the players playing for him? Time will tell, and he may not have much of it. I hope he is successful, I'd like him to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy082005 Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 You know what Syco? I'm beginning to enjoy your posts more and more. I see you have a small number of posts. Were you on here previously under another username? Are you sure your not setting up different account names here Robbo?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy082005 Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 . Th had the personality to invigorate the club and got the forward momentum. He got the team playing as a team not individuals, for that he must be commended. I don't think he had the right personality to be respected enough when things were going against him, also he was very rigid with his tactics, he took us as far as I think he could. Millen now he I think is missing something personality wise, he can't get fans motivated in the same way, this could be a problem for the club. I think tatically he is better than gj. And more open to trying different formations and players. In the long term I believe he can be a good manager.... But does he have the personality to drive forward his ideas and get the players playing for him? Time will tell, and he may not have much of it. I hope he is successful, I'd like him to be. He is missing a LOT!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Are you sure your not setting up different account names here Robbo?? I'm not as articulate as Syco. He's quite a word smith who posts a lot of sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riaz Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 . Th had the personality to invigorate the club and got the forward momentum. He got the team playing as a team not individuals, for that he must be commended. I don't think he had the right personality to be respected enough when things were going against him, also he was very rigid with his tactics, he took us as far as I think he could. Millen now he I think is missing something personality wise, he can't get fans motivated in the same way, this could be a problem for the club. I think tatically he is better than gj. And more open to trying different formations and players. In the long term I believe he can be a good manager.... But does he have the personality to drive forward his ideas and get the players playing for him? Time will tell, and he may not have much of it. I hope he is successful, I'd like him to be. Sorry but I could'nt disagree more. He is the worse manager (during my time), bar tinman, tatically. Under GJ always looked organised and difficult to beat. We rarely look organised under keef. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downendcity Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 I'm not as articulate as Syco. He's quite a word smith who posts a lot of sense. Could be your alter ego RR? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy082005 Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 I'm not as articulate as Syco. He's quite a word smith who posts a lot of sense. He believes that GJ's character got us promoted? how does that make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy082005 Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 . Th had the personality to invigorate the club and got the forward momentum. He got the team playing as a team not individuals, for that he must be commended. I don't think he had the right personality to be respected enough when things were going against him, also he was very rigid with his tactics, he took us as far as I think he could. Millen now he I think is missing something personality wise, he can't get fans motivated in the same way, this could be a problem for the club. I think tatically he is better than gj. And more open to trying different formations and players. In the long term I believe he can be a good manager.... But does he have the personality to drive forward his ideas and get the players playing for him? Time will tell, and he may not have much of it. I hope he is successful, I'd like him to be. This isnt a dig, Im just curious to know what makes you believe this? what have you seen I and thousands others, havent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belfastrobin Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Thats right. I posted that at the time but the blind couldn't see............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syco Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 You know what Syco? I'm beginning to enjoy your posts more and more. I see you have a small number of posts. Were you on here previously under another username? I'm just passionate about the club. At times I have been pro managers and against managers. But I think in time you learn that the emotion from the bubble you are in can override your thoughts. With Keith I am in the middle. He is young so is going to make a few mistakes like they all do. I can also see he has tried to address our issues. However some expect over night success. I am happy to see this season out with Keith and hopefully stay up and then next season with so many contracts up he will have a clean slate to work with. I'm sure there is about 8 players he would like gone today but til then end of the season his hands are tied. I believe there is goings on behind the scenes that we are not aware of. I could only speculate what they are but something doesn't feel right. . Th had the personality to invigorate the club and got the forward momentum. He got the team playing as a team not individuals, for that he must be commended. I don't think he had the right personality to be respected enough when things were going against him, also he was very rigid with his tactics, he took us as far as I think he could. Millen now he I think is missing something personality wise, he can't get fans motivated in the same way, this could be a problem for the club. I think tatically he is better than gj. And more open to trying different formations and players. In the long term I believe he can be a good manager.... But does he have the personality to drive forward his ideas and get the players playing for him? Time will tell, and he may not have much of it. I hope he is successful, I'd like him to be. At the time he was exactly what we needed. I will never deny that. We had had too many soft managers and some needed a kick up the ass. The momentum from our promotion took us to the play offs. I suspected things wasn't right when with Auto in our grasp we failed to strengthen. 3 decent players and we could now be where Stoke are. They strengthened and we did not. In our play off season I remember leaving AG and thinking how the hell did we win that. I wasn't complaining at the time because I bloody loved it but now I think it was the team spirit that he had installed. However when that vanished he was unable to adapt and kept buying strikers and made crazy subs and played without wingers. I think many forget how bad we were in his final days. I still remember that Cardiff game like it was yesterday. Fair play on his achievements and it is a shame it did go sour but that's life and we have all moved on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRL Posted September 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Sorry but I could'nt disagree more. He is the worse manager (during my time), bar tinman, tatically. Under GJ always looked organised and difficult to beat. We rarely look organised under keef. Well I may not have conveyed what I was trying to say to well. I believe he is open to trying different things, where Johnson wasn't. I am not saying for one moment he has made the right decisions, but some times he has. It is a learning curve, and I beleive his openess to try diffeent things will eventually make him a good manager. If he has the time to prove it here, I am getting the feeling probably not. And the piloring he is getting is justified as this is a results business, I just have that feeling wether it be with us, or someone else he will become a good manager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRL Posted September 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 This isnt a dig, Im just curious to know what makes you believe this? what have you seen I and thousands others, havent. See reply to Riaz, I don't think I conveyed what i was trying to say too well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belfastrobin Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Well I may not have conveyed what I was trying to say to well. I believe he is open to trying different things, where Johnson wasn't. I am not saying for one moment he has made the right decisions, but some times he has. It is a learning curve, and I beleive his openess to try diffeent things will eventually make him a good manager. If he has the time to prove it here, I am getting the feeling probably not. And the piloring he is getting is justified as this is a results business, I just have that feeling wether it be with us, or someone else he will become a good manager. Thats why he plays Skuse and Elliot in midfield every game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riaz Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Well I may not have conveyed what I was trying to say to well. I believe he is open to trying different things, where Johnson wasn't. I am not saying for one moment he has made the right decisions, but some times he has. It is a learning curve, and I beleive his openess to try diffeent things will eventually make him a good manager. If he has the time to prove it here, I am getting the feeling probably not. And the piloring he is getting is justified as this is a results business, I just have that feeling wether it be with us, or someone else he will become a good manager. I honestly believe he is guessing most of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strictly Obi Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Johnson had a 40% win ratio, Millen 56% in his caretaker spell, 33% in his current spell. What it proves, I don't know. Apart from Millen needs to improve his win ratio, which is one thing we all agree on. What it proves is that GJ lost his job even though he had a better win rate! Not sure if you went to the same charisma school as Keef, but certainly your argument is not going to be won with facts and figures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy082005 Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Well I may not have conveyed what I was trying to say to well. I believe he is open to trying different things, where Johnson wasn't. I am not saying for one moment he has made the right decisions, but some times he has. It is a learning curve, and I beleive his openess to try diffeent things will eventually make him a good manager. If he has the time to prove it here, I am getting the feeling probably not. And the piloring he is getting is justified as this is a results business, I just have that feeling wether it be with us, or someone else he will become a good manager. I think he is more like GJ then some think. Some of his decisions, his tactics and his selections.....are very similar to what GJ used to do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRL Posted September 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Thats why he plays Skuse and Elliot in midfield every game Well he changed that last season Playing Cisse in there. I know for a fact this season he can't do that as Cisse and Millen don't get on. But it's his job he is putting at risk by not playing him. He could die by his own sword on this decision. After all we started looking alot better when cisse played, so me this does suggest he is willing to change. But he has got himself in a position where he can't change now. Problem is he could play some of the young kids, but with the way the crowd are reacting at the moment, putting youngsters infornt of the baying mob could finish them as footballers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC_Red Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 I suspected things wasn't right when with Auto in our grasp we failed to strengthen. 3 decent players and we could now be where Stoke are. They strengthened and we did not. we bought Adebola and Carle. both brought extra qualities to the squad so we did strengthen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syco Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 I think he is more like GJ then some think. Some of his decisions, his tactics and his selections.....are very similar to what GJ used to do I think if you closely work with someone for a while some things will no doubt stick with you. The good thing is Keith saw with his eyes how things went bad before. Both with GJ and SC. Keith will make mistakes any rookie would. Wiggles hopefully is not only his assistant but also his mentor. Hopefully he can wiggle some of Keith's bad habits out if he obtained any from GJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRL Posted September 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 What it proves is that GJ lost his job even though he had a better win rate! Not sure if you went to the same charisma school as Keef, but certainly your argument is not going to be won with facts and figures. It proves nothing. It would only prove something when they both had the same number of games in charge. I Don't think that will happen though. Time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy082005 Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 I think if you closely work with someone for a while some things will no doubt stick with you. The good thing is Keith saw with his eyes how things went bad before. Both with GJ and SC. Keith will make mistakes any rookie would. Wiggles hopefully is not only his assistant but also his mentor. Hopefully he can wiggle some of Keith's bad habits out if he obtained any from GJ. He saw with his eyes yet continues to pick Skuse and Elliott? and like GJ did...play players out of position? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syco Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 He saw with his eyes yet continues to pick Skuse and Elliott? and like GJ did...play players out of position? They are the tools he has and he is utilizing them. Playing Kilkenny Skuse and Elliott is the only way we can play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 we bought Adebola and Carle. both brought extra qualities to the squad so we did strengthen Like a number of Johnson's signings both were poor buys imo. Adebola was at least two season's past his best and ultimately Carle didn't make in the English game and is now back in Australia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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