Riaz Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 Keep reading, the new manager must have experience in this division.... but why? How many new managers in this division actually come from other championship clubs? Cotteril has just done it, but thats rare! Tons of managers come from elsewhere (unemployed, lower league or Scotland) and do well in this division. The new man would have Championship experience ideally, but its not essential...... What IS needed is a Knowledge of this division - and if McInnes is our man, surely he will have a knowledge of players in this division? he's has been recruiting for a team that has to compete with the old firm. Scotland is not a million miles away and there is good coverage of this division. What we need is a man who can manage and organise a team. A man who can get the best out of average players. That is more important than championship experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brizzle Jordan Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 Exactly what i've said in one of my posts in another thread.. people think championship experience is a must.. no idea why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiderArmyy Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 Agree, general football knoledge means he should know the championship fairly well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRL Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 Keep reading, the new manager must have experience in this division.... but why? How many new managers in this division actually come from other championship clubs? Cotteril has just done it, but thats rare! Tons of managers come from elsewhere (unemployed, lower league or Scotland) and do well in this division. The new man would have Championship experience ideally, but its not essential...... What IS needed is a Knowledge of this division - and if McInnes is our man, surely he will have a knowledge of players in this division? he's has been recruiting for a team that has to compete with the old firm. Scotland is not a million miles away and there is good coverage of this division. What we need is a man who can manage and organise a team. A man who can get the best out of average players. That is more important than championship experience. Agreed And what happens if we get a manager with Championship experience and they get us promoted? Do we sack him if he has no Premier League experience? I think this championship experience argument is flawed. If you can manage, you can manage, makes do difference what level you are at. What makes the difference is the players available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brizzle Jordan Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 A good manager is a good manager and if you have football knowledge, you'll be fine at differant levels of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roe Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 Yep definitely true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hicksy-BCFC Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 Exactly what i've said in one of my posts in another thread.. people think championship experience is a must.. no idea why. Because the standards are very different the higher up you go in the leagues. Why do we always go for lower league managers (or internals) and hope it will work out? If higher level experience is irrelevant (as you say) - how come Chelsea FC, Liverpool and Tottenham didn't entertain the idea of lower league managers???? Because you need better experience and higher level experience or its a gamble. Gary Johnson being a prime example, good L1 and L2 manager, not a Championship manager (couldn't handle the higher reputation players). Hence why you now find him in League 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hicksy-BCFC Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 A good manager is a good manager and if you have football knowledge, you'll be fine at differant levels of the game. When did Chelsea, Liverpool, Tottenham last appoint a lower league manager? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brizzle Jordan Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 When did Chelsea last appoint a manager with 'Premier League experience' Mourinho - Nope Ancelotti - Nope Andre Villas-Boas - Nope Say no more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRL Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 Because the standards are very different the higher up you go in the leagues. Why do we always go for lower league managers (or internals) and hope it will work out? If higher level experience is irrelevant (as you say) - how come Chelsea FC, Liverpool and Tottenham didn't entertain the idea of lower league managers???? Because you need better experience and higher level experience or its a gamble. Gary Johnson being a prime example, good L1 and L2 manager, not a Championship manager (couldn't handle the higher reputation players). Hence why you now find him in League 2. Chelsea hired a relatively unproven manager, one good season, it is still a gamble. Liverpool hired many expensive foreign managers and have generally gone backwards, not sure what your point is here, it certainly doesn't back up your argument. Tottenham hired a Journeyman English manager that has never really won anything of note, apart from the one FA cup success. And what he has won has been at championship level and below which generally doesn't back up your argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hicksy-BCFC Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 When did Chelsea last appoint a manager with 'Premier League experience' Mourinho - Nope Ancelotti - Nope Andre Villas-Boas - Nope Say no more. Same level of experience though. All three - Mourinho - Benfica, Porto Ancelotti - Juventus, Milan Villas-Boas - Porto All three had Champions League management experience. What Chelsea are. So - taking your point that level of experience didn't matter - how come the likes of McInnes didn't get interviewed by Chelsea?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hicksy-BCFC Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 Chelsea hired a relatively unproven manager, one good season, it is still a gamble. Liverpool hired many expensive foreign managers and have generally gone backwards, not sure what your point is here, it certainly doesn't back up your argument. Tottenham hired a Journeyman English manager that has never really won anything of note, apart from the one FA cup success. And what he has won has been at championship level and below which generally doesn't back up your argument. A "journeyman English manager" with extensive Premier League experience and is generally recognized to be the best English manager in the game bar none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brizzle Jordan Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 We are bottom of the championship. Why do you think we can get a massive name? Paul Lambert is a great example.. no championship experience last year yet they got promoted. Everyone has to start somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRL Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 A "journeyman English manager" with extensive Premier League experience and is generally recognized to be the best English manager in the game bar none. Doesn't say much for English managers does it. Apart from 1 FA cup victory what has he done at the top level to deserve the adulation? Oh and that cup win was against Championship Cardiff EDIT What exactly has he achieved in nearly 30 years of football management? I would suggest he wins or gets someone promoted once every 10 years. Not a rip roaring success i think you will agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hicksy-BCFC Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 Doesn't say much for English managers does it. Apart from 1 FA cup victory what has he done at the top level to deserve the adulation? Oh and that cup win was against Championship Cardiff Took Tottenham from the foot of the Premier League to be recognized as genuine regular Champions league contenders. Took Portsmouth to be regular top half Premier League finishers with a club that wouldn't normally be expected to finish there - when he left they went down. Took West Ham United to regular higher up finishes with squads that would normally be expected to be in danger of going down. When he has left, both clubs previously have struggled without him. A brilliant football manager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hicksy-BCFC Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 Doesn't say much for English managers does it. Apart from 1 FA cup victory what has he done at the top level to deserve the adulation? Oh and that cup win was against Championship Cardiff EDIT What exactly has he achieved in nearly 30 years of football management? I would suggest he wins or gets someone promoted once every 10 years. Not a rip roaring success i think you will agree You seriously don't think Tottenham Hotspur are not a completely different proposition now under him compared to before??? I have workmates who are season ticketholders at WHL who would be stunned to hear you think different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hicksy-BCFC Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 Look at our history. Coppell aside - we have either promoted internally or gone to the lower leagues for managers and players 99% of the time. We are always doing it. We go cheap and we gamble that it might work out with unprovens. For fks sake, let's have a bit of ambition. Dave Jones would have been the ideal candidate but instead we may end up with some scottish no-name from a club the size of Cheltenham Town. Classic City. I'm surprised we didn't get in Bobby Gould. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRL Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 Took Tottenham from the foot of the Premier League to be recognized as genuine regular Champions league contenders. Took Portsmouth to be regular top half Premier League finishers with a club that wouldn't normally be expected to finish there - when he left they went down. Took West Ham United to regular higher up finishes with squads that would normally be expected to be in danger of going down. When he has left, both clubs previously have struggled without him. A brilliant football manager. Nothing there that says Brilliance, everything there is done with major overspending. Leaving West ham in poor financial state, leaving Portsmouth in financial Ruin, Spending millions with Spurs and failed to get them to the european cup this year, when spending vastly more than the gunners who were waning. Not a Brilliant football manager. There is nothing in his 30 year history to suggest it, any of this success that you mention is from reckless over spending. Highly Overated, I expect he will Get the England Job where his real ability as a coach will be shown for what it is. I'll will say, he does try to play football the right way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRL Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 Look at our history. Coppell aside - we have either promoted internally or gone to the lower leagues for managers and players 99% of the time. We are always doing it. We go cheap and we gamble that it might work out with unprovens. For fks sake, let's have a bit of ambition. Dave Jones would have been the ideal candidate but instead we may end up with some scottish no-name from a club the size of Cheltenham Town. Classic City. I'm surprised we didn't get in Bobby Gould. Oh god, if we hired Gould I think I would have had a heart attack, This must be the first time I haven't seen his bleatings in thelocal rag. The problem with getting a 'Big Name' manager is they can only do their job with big money, they won't want a small budget and try to work with what we got. unless we get a billionaire in charge that is one thing that won't change, so you have to try and find a manager that can work with smaller budgets and lesser players. Like I said before, Getting big names in after being sacked is kind of supporting failure, I would rather get a manger that we can poach that is up and coming, than a manager in the I have no job pool, who is generally there because he has been sacked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hicksy-BCFC Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 Oh god, if we hired Gould I think I would have had a heart attack, This must be the first time I haven't seen his bleatings in thelocal rag. The problem with getting a 'Big Name' manager is they can only do their job with big money, they won't want a small budget and try to work with what we got. unless we get a billionaire in charge that is one thing that won't change, so you have to try and find a manager that can work with smaller budgets and lesser players. Like I said before, Getting big names in after being sacked is kind of supporting failure, I would rather get a manger that we can poach that is up and coming, than a manager in the I have no job pool, who is generally there because he has been sacked. Dave Jones spent the first fair bit of his time at Cardiff under transfer embargoes, Inland Revenue winding up orders and only able to bring in loanees. Craig Bellamy for example had his wages paid for the most part by Man City because Cardiff couldn't afford it. He also took them to 3 wembley appearances in 3 years. He was sacked - unfairly in my mind - because of the over-expectation which came out principally because of the achievements of Jones himself - I also think Swansea going up didn't help him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRL Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 Dave Jones spent the first fair bit of his time at Cardiff under transfer embargoes, Inland Revenue winding up orders and only able to bring in loanees. Craig Bellamy for example had his wages paid for the most part by Man City because Cardiff couldn't afford it. He also took them to 3 wembley appearances in 3 years. He was sacked - unfairly in my mind - because of the over-expectation which came out principally because of the achievements of Jones himself - I also think Swansea going up didn't help him. Jones is not and never will be a big name manager. He may have been sacked unfairly, I agree with you there. but if his objective was promotion, then he failed. How many years did he have trying to do it with Cardiff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hicksy-BCFC Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 Jones is not and never will be a big name manager. He may have been sacked unfairly, I agree with you there. but if his objective was promotion, then he failed. How many years did he have trying to do it with Cardiff? I think you are getting the wrong end of the stick with the "Big name" bit. Bryan Robson is a big name in football - I couldn't think of a worse outcome if we appointed him. I am after a good manager, with relevant experience and a record which is reasonably good at our level. Dave Jones has that in spades - Cardiff are where they are BECAUSE OF Dave Jones, they will learn that in the next season and a half. Billy Davies would have been the same - a top quality Championship manager, proven with Forest and Derby. The fact Jones did so well with Cardiff in spite of winding up orders and loanees only speaks volumes for his ability as a football manager at this level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRL Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 I think you are getting the wrong end of the stick with the "Big name" bit. Bryan Robson is a big name in football - I couldn't think of a worse outcome if we appointed him. I am after a good manager, with relevant experience and a record which is reasonably good at our level. Dave Jones has that in spades - Cardiff are where they are BECAUSE OF Dave Jones, they will learn that in the next season and a half. Billy Davies would have been the same - a top quality Championship manager, proven with Forest and Derby. The fact Jones did so well with Cardiff in spite of winding up orders and loanees only speaks volumes for his ability as a football manager at this level. I think he may have failed personally, when you consider the players available to him. Many from the prem. A really good manager would have got them up. Then take a look at signings like jfh and fowler, when you have financial trouble you don't waste money on these guys just looking for a last payday . That ticks all the wrong boxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hicksy-BCFC Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 I think he may have failed personally, when you consider the players available to him. Many from the prem. A really good manager would have got them up. Then take a look at signings like jfh and fowler, when you have financial trouble you don't waste money on these guys just looking for a last payday . That ticks all the wrong boxes. I thought Hasselbaink didn't do that badly for them. Fowler was a disgrace I agree. I'm in Australia a lot for work, and am now, I went and saw him play in North Queensland and he couldn't give a shite. But was that Jones or Ridsdale?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRL Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 I thought Hasselbaink didn't do that badly for them. Fowler was a disgrace I agree. I'm in Australia a lot for work, and am now, I went and saw him play in North Queensland and he couldn't give a shite. But was that Jones or Ridsdale?? Dunno, manager should choose the team though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hicksy-BCFC Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 Dunno, manager should choose the team though. At the time though, before he had become a full has-been like he is now, I too would have picked Fowler if available. Jones hardly picked him though when you look at his time at Cardiff. Ridsdale signed him I believe though - which is hardly Jones' fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handsofclayOLD Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 Had the internet existed back in the late-1960s, there would have been a few on the Derby County forum expressing their disapproval of appointing Brian Clough of little Hartlepool because he didn't have Division Two (Now Championship) experience. The two managers who got us into the top flight had their first experience of Div Two (Championship) football with us...indeed neither had any management experience before. If all Championship clubs only appointed managers who had championship experience, there would be an ever decreasing pool to choose from each year. Norwich were promoted last season under a Scottish manager with no previous Championship experience. Swansea were also promoted under a manager whose previous Championship 'experience' wasn't anything to write home about. Both clubs gambled with a gut instinct. A lot of fans on here have a gut instinct McInnes will do well for us. That's partly what makes football exciting, gambling on gut instincts. Gary Johnson is being derided for not having Championship experience, but he got us within 90 mins of the Prem. He also got us promoted from the 3rd tier whereas a previous manager with successful championship as well as prem experience failed in more than double the time Johnson needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riaz Posted October 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 When did Chelsea, Liverpool, Tottenham last appoint a lower league manager? Funny you mention Chelsea. Quite similar really assuming we appoint McInnes. They appointed andre villa boas - who did extremely well in a lesser league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 A good manager is a good manager and if you have football knowledge, you'll be fine at differant levels of the game. Wrong. What your're saying is that any 'good' manager could a success in the PL or La Liga. Managers, like players reach a level of maximum ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC_Red Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 Wrong. What your're saying is that any 'good' manager could a success in the PL or La Liga. Managers, like players reach a level of maximum ability. we can see ya sneaking in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.