England V Italy (Pre Match Build Up Thread)

[Frome Valley]

I do not want them to win as it would vindicate the way football is run in this Country.

It was pathetic at times.

Still the EPL has even more money to spend now, best league in the world chortle, chortle.

[Spud55]

Absolutely agree. Ukraine, for all their weaknesses were on a whole, far better then us technically when we played them.

As you said, the last World Cup should have been the final straw. Personally, I would say the debacle of not qualifying for 2008 should have sent alarm bells ringing....but definately after the shambles that was 2010.

Things need to change in this country.....massively. Like Germany changed things 10 years ago, and look at the rewards they are now reaping.

The problem is we won't change, the FAA can come up with all the ideas they want, but I think we all know that they won't follow this with the investment needed, as changing the system is all well and good, but without the investment from the FA in coaching and pitches it will get nowhere.

Having not done the courses myself I can't say for certain but I have been told that the FA coaching courses are archaic at best and downright woeful at worst, the UEFA courses are very good but well out of the reach of the layman.

The FA and clubs should be supporting local coaches and getting new coaches into the game, as it's in the best interests of clubs to have local coaches for kids as good as they can be.

I know in catalonia all the clubs from the smallest local kids team to Barcelona model their youth coaching the same way, I'm not sure how much Barca helped out the local coaches to learn the Barca way, but surely that is the way forward.

Us and rovers should be out working constantly with all the local kids coaches to teach them how to coach the way we want them to play, as any kids that do make it to our academy will have been coached at a local team level to some point, so why not get them coached as we want so when they start with us they have the basics already ingrained in them.

We pay a lot of money for our academy and within that it surely makes sense for those at the top of the academy to go out and see how the best do it, the cost of sending the top bid and a coach or two out to Arsenal, Barcelona, bayern Munich, for a week to observe how they develop their kids would surely be advantageous?

[Phil78]

Teams at youth level at more instrested in getting stuck in and winning games, rather than building technical footballing ability, it's as simple as that, until that changes, it will continue at the top level.

Personally I'm utterly digusted with Wayne Rooney, I'd say probably without doubt, he's the only footballer in the competition who prepared for Euro 2012 by going on a beer up in Vegas, another flop from Rooney at International level and yet his people are happy to declare him a world class player. My ass is he.

Between Rooney's attitude, and lack of quality in midfield we were never going to do any better than we have done and in fact we have exceeded expectations.

Parker, Young and Milner are decent players but not good enough at the highest level, Young still has his age on his side, but I don't think it's any shock that Parker was ignored by so many international managers for so long, good battler but not enough ability.

Hart, Caulker, Smalling, Wilshire, Cleverly, Wellbeck, Carroll, Oxlade, Theo, Walker....these are the players who are the future for England and I'd get them all the squads for the WC qualifers right away and most of them in the starting line up, keep a couple of older heads such as Ashley Cole and Gerrard and let's build for future.

[Brizzle Jordan]

Paul Merson makes an interesting point:

If Carroll did not put his hand up then he should be embarrassed. How can a £35million striker not take a penalty? Since the age of 10 when he was playing Sunday morning football in Newcastle his job has been to score goals, but he did not take a penalty.

I've not got a problem with Ashley Cole taking one - and I feel sorry for him for missing - but that isn't the point. He's the best left-back in the world, but his job is to stop people; scoring goals doesn't come naturally for him.

Carroll was bought for £35million to score goals and you should always put your best takers in your first four in any shoot-out (you wouldn't leave Lionel Messi until the fifth penalty because it might not get there).

And you can't tell me it's about who's confident and who isn't because Ashley Young took one and he's had an absolute nightmare in the last three games...

[DelliottBcfc21]

Teams at youth level at more instrested in getting stuck in and winning games, rather than building technical footballing ability, it's as simple as that, until that changes, it will continue at the top level.

Personally I'm utterly digusted with Wayne Rooney, I'd say probably without doubt, he's the only footballer in the competition who prepared for Euro 2012 by going on a beer up in Vegas, another flop from Rooney at International level and yet his people are happy to declare him a world class player. My ass is he.

Between Rooney's attitude, and lack of quality in midfield we were never going to do any better than we have done and in fact we have exceeded expectations.

Parker, Young and Milner are decent players but not good enough at the highest level, Young still has his age on his side, but I don't think it's any shock that Parker was ignored by so many international managers for so long, good battler but not enough ability.

Hart, Caulker, Smalling, Wilshire, Cleverly, Wellbeck, Carroll, Oxlade, Theo, Walker....these are the players who are the future for England and I'd get them all the squads for the WC qualifers right away and most of them in the starting line up, keep a couple of older heads such as Ashley Cole and Gerrard and let's build for future.

Agree with the Rooney stuff, He was being likened to Messi and Ronaldo a few years ago, but he's older than both, and still so far behind them ability wise.

I gotta say, I think Parker is very comfortable at this level, always realible and I feel one of our best players this tournament. Milner was only played as he understands the defensive side of the game, unlike Walcott and The Ox.

Persoanlly Hodgson has done so well under all the cicumstances (How long he had to prepare, Timing of the appointment, Lack of technical ability throughout the squad)

I hope we will have a very good squad for the world cup, with more techical ability: Wilshere,Cleverly,Chamberlain ect

[One Team In Keynsham]

It is rare I think Michael Owen has anything of interest to say, but this twitter post from him summed it up best:

Pirlo was awesome but we have a player of a similar age and equally as good. Unfortunately he wasn't there. #Scholes

The England team of the last 10-15 years should have been built around the best ball playing midfielder we have had this generation, but it was deemed better to shunt him to left midfield and eventually he sacked the whole thing off.

[Cunnyfunt]

It is rare I think Michael Owen has anything of interest to say, but this twitter post from him summed it up best:

Pirlo was awesome but we have a player of a similar age and equally as good. Unfortunately he wasn't there. #Scholes

The England team of the last 10-15 years should have been built around the best ball playing midfielder we have had this generation, but it was deemed better to shunt him to left midfield and eventually he sacked the whole thing off.

Totally agree with the Scholes thing. When he did play in his usual position in his early days for England his goal scoring record was more than decent for a midfield player.. Sven came along with his 'fit the best players in anywhere I can philosophy' and wasted a truly masterful technician.

On Rooney... He's a player who needs a run of matches to gear up to his top form. Once he is in his streak and on fire he can then be considered world class. If he is showing signs of rustiness and fatigue etc... Well its fair to say he's far from the player we see during the season.

On England... We achieved the best we could, its just that there are four better teams in Europe who deserve to be in the semis ahead of us. The quarters is about a realistic as it gets because I really didnt think we'd get out of the group. We defended well at times, worked our balls off but its just that we lack quick support around our front men and we could barely string four passes together coinciding with poor finishing. We all knew about this anyway didn't we? We haven't been good for years now right?

[TRL]

Paul Merson makes an interesting point:

If Carroll did not put his hand up then he should be embarrassed. How can a £35million striker not take a penalty? Since the age of 10 when he was playing Sunday morning football in Newcastle his job has been to score goals, but he did not take a penalty.

I've not got a problem with Ashley Cole taking one - and I feel sorry for him for missing - but that isn't the point. He's the best left-back in the world, but his job is to stop people; scoring goals doesn't come naturally for him.

Carroll was bought for £35million to score goals and you should always put your best takers in your first four in any shoot-out (you wouldn't leave Lionel Messi until the fifth penalty because it might not get there).

And you can't tell me it's about who's confident and who isn't because Ashley Young took one and he's had an absolute nightmare in the last three games...

A piss poor point though.

Just because you cost a ton of money, doesn't make you a confident penalty taker, just because you are a striker, doesn't make you a good penalty taker.

Quite often good strikers are instinctive, its what makes them good strikers, but equally poor pen takers, as they have time to think. It's completely different.

If Carroll wasn't confident, he was 100% right not to take them. But of course Paul Merson has a direct link to Carroll's brain, so he obviously knows better, or perhaps he is talking complete bollox yet again.

Get back to what you do best merse, getting pissed up and wasting your talent.

[Brizzle Jordan]

So it looks as though England need to spend the next few years working on a new system of getting better at keeping the ball and creating our own little Pirlo.

Hart, Walker, Jones, Caulker, Bertrand, Wilshere, Cleverley, McEachran, Sturridge, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Welbeck (4-3-3) looks good on paper but would be distinctly average on the pitch if we carry on in the same vain.

Roy has said we need to follow Germany who picked a young side for the World Cup in 2010 but let's look at how they could line-up if they only fielded young players..

Neuer, Boateng, Hummels, Badstuber, Schmelzer, Gundogan, Kroos, Ozil, Gotze, Reus, Schurrle (4-3-3)

Oh.. what a surprise.. we would still be miles behind.

[bearded_red]

For what it is worth I am proud of them and I don't feel anybody should feel let down. We gave it our best shot, and although I agree to some extent that determination, passion and hunger should be a prerequisite with any professional sports team, the sad case that it isn't. But this team displayed those characteristics in abundance. After the 2010 World Cup I felt as annoyed and dispatched from the England team as I ever have and I would have been happy enough for the whole squad to never play again and just chuck in a load of young players. Of course, in the cold light of day this opinion is clerarly moronic.

But this squad should not feel disgraced in the slightest, we went there, gave it our best shot and ultimately we weren't good enough to mix it with the top teams. This may be a naive and immature view of football, but I am unable to criticise any team when they have made the most tackles and blocks out of any team in the tournament. Gerrard, Parker, Lescott and Terry were in particular giants for us and they should be thoroughly proud of themselves, as ultimately should the majority of the team.

Having said all that, we had the same problem that we always have. Unable to hold the ball for any length of time. This isn't the fault of Hodgson or any of the players, although it was infuriating to see players as talented as Rooney and Young be so wasteful in possesion, and is solely down to the philosophy of football in this country (Go for it, get stuck in, big centre forwards etc) and the way that our young players are coached. Even when we are making the most simple of passes it always appears as if our players have to really try and concentrate on playing the pass, whereas you look at other nationalities and they are able to stroke the ball around without giving it a seconds thought. This is clearly down from them being encouraged from an early age to spend time on the ball, keep it away from the opposition and, ultimately, express yourself. This is in stark contrast to teams that I played in a kid where 'getting it forward' was the main aim of the team and if anybody was ever caught on the ball it was treated as the worst of all errors. Amateur coaches who run football teams for their kids can obviously be excused for this, but The FA should make much more of an effort to take these parents and give them at least a basic understanding of how to coach basic skills such as controlling it, passing it and dribbling with it.

A much worse case is when you hear some of the horror stories about professional academies kicking players out for being too small etc. A player who I used to play with as a kid got taken by a Premier League academy, two years later he got released a completely different and, to be honest, worse player. When I played with him he had a unique ability to dribble round players, get through on goal and then simply roll it into the corner. He came back when released from the academy and it had all been coached out of him. The thing that made him exciting suddenly wasn't there anymore and he couldn't wait to get rid of the ball and never had any confidence when through on goal. Of course this is a single case and not to much can be taken from it, but you hear stories like this all the time.

It would appear from the noises coming out of The FA (smaller pitches, smaller sized games etc) that they are looking to address these problems and hopefully produce players with a greater command of the ball in future. By all accounts Brooking and Southgate know how far behind we are when compares to other countries and hopefully the changes they have already made, and the changes in the pipeline, will help us catch up with the likes of Germany and Spain when it comes to producing excellent technical players.

As for the first team, I know others want sweeping changes, but I think we actually have a decent group of players, who can form the base of the squad for the next few years. I also think it would be wrong to get rid of Terry, Cole, Parker and Gerrard at the present moment. I can't really see Terry or Parker being in Brazil in 2014, but we shouldn't write them off immediately and players of their experience could prove invaluable as we introduce more younger players over the next few years.

Picking the squad for Brazil now is of course, completely guesswork and pretty much pointless, but I would say that it would look something like this:

Hart, Stockdale, Butland

Walker, Richards, Cahill, Jones, Smalling, Gibbs, Cole

Walcott, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Gerrard, Rodwell, Wilshere, Milner, Young, Johnson

Rooney, Carroll, Welbeck, Bent, Sturridge

[Phil78]

Picking the squad for Brazil now is of course, completely guesswork and pretty much pointless, but I would say that it would look something like this:

Hart, Stockdale, Butland

Walker, Richards, Cahill, Jones, Smalling, Gibbs, Cole

Walcott, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Gerrard, Rodwell, Wilshere, Milner, Young, Johnson

Rooney, Carroll, Welbeck, Bent, Sturridge

I'd be amazed if the world cup squad didn't include Caulker

[One Team In Keynsham]

I'd be amazed if the world cup squad didn't include Caulker

I'd expect whoever is manager to publicly boil their head in piss if they still view Milner as one of the best midfielders in the country.

[bearded_red]

I'd expect whoever is manager to publicly boil their head in piss if they still view Milner as one of the best midfielders in the country.

I'm by no means a massive fan of Milner and watching him play out wide is slightly painful. However, very sucessful managers have all seemed to rate him and regarded him as a valuable player in their squad.

[Nibor]

Penalties are really easy. All you have to do is practise kicking the ball as hard as you can 1 foot inside either post. The only decision you need to make when taking one is which side. If the keeper saves it, fair dos. 9+ times out of 10 they won't. No need to get cute, creative or second guess yourself.

It's not really the point though, we were second best by some distance in every period of the 120 minutes and only a combination of blind luck and determination really got us to penalties. Winning on penalties would have just meant embarrassment really.

I agree with bearded_red that we need to look to the next generation now. I don't think however that the FA are paying anything more than lip service to the grass roots problem we obviously have. Follow the money, that will tell the story. They invest an absolute pittance in coaching outside the academies where most of it happens. By the time players are at professional clubs they're already too far behind.

[One Team In Keynsham]

Penalties are really easy. All you have to do is practise kicking the ball as hard as you can 1 foot inside either post. The only decision you need to make when taking one is which side. If the keeper saves it, fair dos. 9+ times out of 10 they won't. No need to get cute, creative or second guess yourself.

It's not really the point though, we were second best by some distance in every period of the 120 minutes and only a combination of blind luck and determination really got us to penalties. Winning on penalties would have just meant embarrassment really.

I agree with bearded_red that we need to look to the next generation now. I don't think however that the FA are paying anything more than lip service to the grass roots problem we obviously have. Follow the money, that will tell the story. They invest an absolute pittance in coaching outside the academies where most of it happens. By the time players are at professional clubs they're already too far behind.

I would never say penalties are easy, but I do agree that players should practise them until it is 2nd nature where they go. If Tiger Woods doesn't practise 4 foot putts until he wears down the putting green, or Michael Jordan didn't practise shooting from the free-throw line until he could sink them with his eyes shut, I would be astonished. I appreciate that nothing can replicate the pressure of the situation, but that is just the time that a player can fall back on his well-honed technique. No idea if that is what they do in the England camp, but if it is not, then the coaching staff and players need to take a good hard look at themselves.

[One Team In Keynsham]

I'm by no means a massive fan of Milner and watching him play out wide is slightly painful. However, very sucessful managers have all seemed to rate him and regarded him as a valuable player in their squad.

Agreed, Hodgson, and before him Cappello, rate Milner at international level, and various club managers share a similar view. Personally, I struggle to see what he brings to the team. Some posts/reports suggest he was there is provide defensive cover for Johnson: I'd rather the RB be better coached to defend, than sacrifice what is one of England's few possible attacking outlets.

[Dolman Block B]

This will make you chuckle.

As the Italian scores the winning penalty, look at the England fan in the background who has whipped his shorts down and shows off his "Todger"

[marshy]

The easiest way for Carroll to score from a penalty would be for someone else to chip it up from the spot for Carroll to run from the edge of the box and nod it in with his head. Unfortunately not allowed in a shoot-out.

[The Fat Controller]

I'm by no means a massive fan of Milner and watching him play out wide is slightly painful. However, very sucessful managers have all seemed to rate him and regarded him as a valuable player in their squad.

The problem is people want him to play like a "winger" when he's more of a "wide midfielder".

[Maltshoveller]

Paul Merson makes an interesting point:

If Carroll did not put his hand up then he should be embarrassed. How can a £35million striker not take a penalty? Since the age of 10 when he was playing Sunday morning football in Newcastle his job has been to score goals, but he did not take a penalty.

I've not got a problem with Ashley Cole taking one - and I feel sorry for him for missing - but that isn't the point. He's the best left-back in the world, but his job is to stop people; scoring goals doesn't come naturally for him.

Carroll was bought for £35million to score goals and you should always put your best takers in your first four in any shoot-out (you wouldn't leave Lionel Messi until the fifth penalty because it might not get there).

And you can't tell me it's about who's confident and who isn't because Ashley Young took one and he's had an absolute nightmare in the last three games...

Still on the anti Carroll bit then

What about the so called leader of men TERRY

[Maltshoveller]

I would never say penalties are easy, but I do agree that players should practise them until it is 2nd nature where they go. If Tiger Woods doesn't practise 4 foot putts until he wears down the putting green, or Michael Jordan didn't practise shooting from the free-throw line until he could sink them with his eyes shut, I would be astonished. I appreciate that nothing can replicate the pressure of the situation, but that is just the time that a player can fall back on his well-honed technique. No idea if that is what they do in the England camp, but if it is not, then the coaching staff and players need to take a good hard look at themselves.

Should that not be the job of the clubs!!!!!

Players are with thier clubs months in months out

[Phil78]

Still on the anti Carroll bit then

What about the so called leader of men TERRY

Think it's daft to have a pop at Terry or Carroll, last couple of weeks they have both impressed, I've sure changed my mind on Carroll that's for sure

People need to be pointing blame and players like Rooney who fail to turn up at many a tournament

[Nibor]

I would never say penalties are easy, but I do agree that players should practise them until it is 2nd nature where they go. If Tiger Woods doesn't practise 4 foot putts until he wears down the putting green, or Michael Jordan didn't practise shooting from the free-throw line until he could sink them with his eyes shut, I would be astonished. I appreciate that nothing can replicate the pressure of the situation, but that is just the time that a player can fall back on his well-honed technique. No idea if that is what they do in the England camp, but if it is not, then the coaching staff and players need to take a good hard look at themselves.

The point of saying penalties are easy is to take the pressure off. All the player has to do is kick accurately. No decisions bar one simple one, no second guessing. Technique is something practise can hone. They aren't responsible for scoring, just putting the ball one foot inside the post at pace. If the keeper saves it, no guilt.

[Cunnyfunt]

Think it's daft to have a pop at Terry or Carroll, last couple of weeks they have both impressed, I've sure changed my mind on Carroll that's for sure

People need to be pointing blame and players like Rooney who fail to turn up at many a tournament

But Rooney has only ever been 100% fit at one tournament and in that instance he absolutely ran the show.

[One Team In Keynsham]

Should that not be the job of the clubs!!!!!

Players are with thier clubs months in months out

Blame the players, not the clubs. I cannot imagine that SAF, Mancini etc give a flying one whether England progress in a finals. When it comes to how their players perform in a club shoot-out, then maybe they'll get excited. When it comes to how England perform, the England coaching staff and squad must be accountable.

[Maltshoveller]

Blame the players, not the clubs. I cannot imagine that SAF, Mancini etc give a flying one whether England progress in a finals. When it comes to how their players perform in a club shoot-out, then maybe they'll get excited. When it comes to how England perform, the England coaching staff and squad must be accountable.

I was replying to a post saying England coaching staff should

coach our defenders how to defend.

All i was saying is that the players should already know how to defend by

the time they get into an england squad

If they dont they wont learn in a week away with england

[One Team In Keynsham]

Saw this on another forum:

30 Cristiano Ronaldo has had more shots in his first four games at Euro 2012 than the entire England squad (29) had at the tournament

20 Italy had more shots on target in their quarter-final match than England had in total in their four matches in Ukraine

88 England conceded more than twice as many shots to France, Sweden, Ukraine and Italy than they had against those teams

39 England had on average 39% of the possession in their four games, their lowest figure at a tournament since Euro 1980

29 Ashley Young and James Milner put in 29 crosses in the four games. Only three reached an England team-mate

300 England averaged 300 passes per match. The four semi-finalists have averaged 479

15 England completed only 15 passes in the 15 minutes of the second period of extra-time against Italy

18 England's most successful passing combination against Italy was the goalkeeper Joe Hart to the substitute striker Andy Carroll

115 Andrea Pirlo had more passes against England than England's four starting midfielders had against Italy

18 Mesut Ozil has created 18 chances in Germany's four games. Steven Gerrard, England's most prolific chance creator, has made six

102 England ran on average 102km in their four matches. Italy ran 7.5km further on average per match

86 England have had the most tackles in the tournament, with Steven Gerrard's 18 the most of any player

29 England have blocked the most shots at Euro 2012, 17 more than Italy, 19 more than Germany, 21 more than Portugal and 24 more than Spain

Stats supplied by Opta

I know you can prove most things with statistics, but most team passes being Hart to Carroll is piss-poor. [caveat being that I have no idea as to the veracity of these numbers]

[The Fat Controller]

Surely an important statistic is that England are unbeaten under Roy Hodgson in normal time.

[One Team In Keynsham]

Surely an important statistic is that England are unbeaten under Roy Hodgson in normal time.

England are unbeaten under Roy Hodgson in all matches, normal time and added time: yesterday's game is a draw, the penalties only decided who progressed

Doesn't make us any better.

[Rob k]

England are unbeaten under Roy Hodgson in all matches, normal time and added time: yesterday's game is a draw, the penalties only decided who progressed

Doesn't make us any better.

Nope but it gives us a foundation to work on! May aswell take something positive from the tournament.