redfieldred Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 No Hillsborough could not have happened in the 40s because there were no enormous metal cages stoppuing opposing fans from fighting each other. These came in after hooliganism took hold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 rugby league certainly did have a hooligan problem with the key derby games often ending in a hair-razing manner. what about T20 you get a great atmosphere you can drink in the stand and have banter/sit with away supporters the same as most rugby games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poland_red Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 No Hillsborough could not have happened in the 40s because there were no enormous metal cages stoppuing opposing fans from fighting each other. These came in after hooliganism took hold. I'm not qualified to speak on the matter, but I'm sure the Ibrox disaster did not feature any fences? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 football is nothing without the tribalism that surrounds it. It lends an edge that other sports can't replicate. I'm certainly younger than Kingswood, but it's this atmosphere that hooked me when I was a young'un, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. The more this hereditary atmosphere is eroded and the more the game is sanitized the more we have to rely on daft initiatives to turn 'the gate or red' or whatever it is the club tries to do nowadays. What was once a game for lads who wanted a laugh on saturday has evolved into some sort of bastardized version of the NFL. It's soul destroying to see. Football lost it's edge a long time ago, and i for one miss the 'old days', and I'm speaking as someone who is relatively young but had the privilege of catching the tail end of a standing east end and the glories that came with it. I don't miss getting my head caved in, and like Kingswood i do not condone violence, but remembering the buzz of old - wow. Modern football doesn't compare. Of course, it's predictable to see the OTIB superfans united in condemnation without actually reading the posts fully and appreciating their nostalgia for terrace culture. Some may well have missed the point, but then perhaps Km shouldn't have entitled his post 'Hooligans, we thank you'. As others have pointed out, this really is a chicken and egg argument. Football is definitely more sanitised than it was 30 years ago. The reason it became sanitised was because of violence and crime associated with football matches. Unfortunately 'terrace culture' is inseparable from violence and so I just don't believe that society is responsible enough to have 'an edge' without it going too far. Perhaps those who participated in 'the odd scrap' back in the day should consider that it was their actions that made (or at least contributed to) this particular 'bed' in which we all lie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frome Valley Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 why isn't that the case for rugby then? dare i say because there isn't or has ever been a hooligan problem? There is hardly a hooligan problem at Glastonbury, Reading etc check where the ticket money goes. Glastonbury's named charity now could be the Avon and Somerset constabulary. Festival goers will notice a similar gentrification and massive shift in demographics to football. Hardly a hooligan problem at the old free festivals. Hippies don't fight, but that culture was made illegal. Rugby is a alien world, dare I say it an upper class driven sport which gives it a differing status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciderup Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 I'm not the same vintage as the OP but not far off. I started going to the Gate in 1975 with my dad and remember the noise coming out of the covered end, I was in absolute awe to be honest. My dad used to take me in the enclosure, right by the whitewashed walls of the tunnel stood on a fold away metal stool (imagine that nowadays). My first memory of trouble at the Gate would have been Chelsea when my old man threw me under his shoulder, put his coat over me and just legged it through a load of nutters kicking the crap out of each other outside what is now the Tobacco factory. As a 7 year old, I was absolutely terrified! I kind of understand what the OP means in his post but I think there's an element of romanticism in our memories of yesteryear. Yes it was much louder than nowadays and yes, the Gate was a very intimidating place for visiting supporters but I don't think it was all down to hooliganism, certainly tribalism and I don't think they are the same thing WTGR to the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poland_red Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 what about T20 you get a great atmosphere you can drink in the stand and have banter/sit with away supporters the same as most rugby games like my response to Redfield Red regarding something else, this is not something I'm qualified to speak about. However, to my (admittedly) very vague knowledge of rugby T20 (!? I'm assuming this is union or something like that!?), the very dynamic of the crowd is different and made up of a hotch potch of ex-public schoolboys, fox-hunting sympathisers, estate agents and middle-aged women in their ankle length dresses and thermos full of tea. I might be incorrect on this, and feel free to correct me. If I'm right, I'd rather rugby kept this demographic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frome Valley Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 No Hillsborough could not have happened in the 40s because there were no enormous metal cages stoppuing opposing fans from fighting each other. These came in after hooliganism took hold. The Burdean park disaster in the forties and Hillsborough were down to poor stadium management. People at Hillsborough were also injured entering the stadium. Ibrox in the seventies - poor stadium management again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southside Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 Ok guys, i know i will be slaughtered for this but i got to get this baby off my chest... As some of you may know i am not the youngest poster on this forum, and hopefully, not the oldest ! but i see posts on here slaging off the very people that make football what it is today....Yes Hooligans !!! When i was a babby in the old covered end ( east end for our younger viewers ) it was scarves and rattles and jolly ho! and people wore badges and stuff on theire scarves, then one day back god i dont remember the year, we played Chelsea in a pre-season i think, point is that they came to the gate all wearing ( in pete townshend style) white boiler suites, and from looking from the covered end i remember they had a football which was kicked onto the pitch, which enveribly was followed by a pitch invasion and an impromptu game followed kicking towards the covered end,(east end), the ball goes in the net then they all jumped the fences and mobbed behind the goal, what followed that day is a bit of a fog cos it went a bit mental, local mods that were there mobbed as far as i remember and i think a few handbags were exchanged ( if you were there please enlighten me cos it's a bloody long time ago, selective memory and all that)....long story short as far as i remember the next home game we had a crew in the east end, comprising of, mods skins and utter nutters from all across bristol.......and we had a voice, for the first time i remember hearing chants at ashton gate! not the crap that the blue few regurgitated every game " HAROLD " but a new found identity that drew me like a magnet...I immediately became part of the East End, and the rest is history, we fought, we sang, and we stuck together, home and away!......so next time one of you limp wristed tossers have a go at hooligans, remember yer history, and remember, we never wore flares.........thanks for reading...rant well and truely over Good post mate, I know where you're coming from completely, you've certainly ruffled the blouses of the oh so superior big girls on here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 There is hardly a hooligan problem at Glastonbury, Reading etc check where the ticket money goes. Glastonbury's named charity now could be the Avon and Somerset constabulary. Festival goers will notice a similar gentrification and massive shift in demographics to football. Hardly a hooligan problem at the old free festivals. Hippies don't fight, but that culture was made illegal. Rugby is a alien world, dare I say it an upper class driven sport which gives it a differing status. Yeah but Glastonbury is a gathering of 170,000 people the majority of whom are there to get off their faces. It's a city the size of Sunderland appearing in the countryside for a week- of course it needs policing. Plus, (I'm assuming you go) gave you seen the quantities of drugs that are consumed there?! That's perhaps a whole different argument but the bottom line is, there are a lot of people doing a lot of illegal things at Glastonbury. Don't get me wrong, I love the place- I'm having my honeymoon there next year (tickets allowing)- but to argue that it doesn't need police is ludicrous. I do take your points on the criminalisation of certain lifestyle choices though As for rugby, what about rugby league? Incredibly working class and hardly any trouble there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poland_red Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 Yeah but Glastonbury is a gathering of 170,000 people the majority of whom are there to get off their faces. It's a city the size of Sunderland appearing in the countryside for a week- of course it needs policing. Plus, (I'm assuming you go) gave you seen the quantities of drugs that are consumed there?! That's perhaps a whole different argument but the bottom line is, there are a lot of people doing a lot of illegal things at Glastonbury. Don't get me wrong, I love the place- I'm having my honeymoon there next year (tickets allowing)- but to argue that it doesn't need police is ludicrous. I do take your points on the criminalisation of certain lifestyle choices though As for rugby, what about rugby league? Incredibly working class and hardly any trouble there rugby league was notorious for mass disorder in the 80s - refer to Hull City Psychos by Sean Tordorff for more information. Yes, it's a book about Hull's football mob, but it gives plenty of space for the rugby team and what they got up to. Just as bad as the football escapades in fact, if not worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazred Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 Good post mate, I know where you're coming from completely, you've certainly ruffled the blouses of the oh so superior big girls on here! And there it is again, questioning someone's masculinity just because they don't condone violence at a football match. Pathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cider_dog Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 If young men want to fight, let them fight. On the trains, on the parks, on the terraces... If they are only fighting each other whats the harm done? Alas I am a bit old a frail to throw some blows nowadays, but back in the eighties I played my part. British Football is NOT Opera, Waitrose, BBC3 or Vuvu ******* zelas. It is a tribal, spite filled battle held on a rectangle of green pasture. That's why I love it. And yes, I would pay for a ticket to the Rome Colosseum to watch gladiators fight to the death. Why? Because that's how you feel ALIVE . Rant over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 Anyone can relate to the thrill of an adrenaline rush. Beating the shit out of someone or smashing up a town centre to get it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redfieldred Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 Good post mate, I know where you're coming from completely, you've certainly ruffled the blouses of the oh so superior big girls on here! Whose ruffled. Just stating common knowledge that hooliganism offered nothing positive to the club or football as a whole and a hell of a lot of negatives - such as death, overpolicing, children being scared, innocent bystanders maimed, etc etc etc. I agree I am oh so superior to a thug. A thug makes himself inferior by his brainless thuggish actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slartibartfast Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 I would, but you have just underlined what all those that think about you and yours. sorry, me and my what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazred Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 Because that's how you feel ALIVE . No, thats how YOU feel alive. You get off on violence. It's not needed at football stadiums among other places. Violence will perpetuate violence. Surely a seasoned individual as yourself knows that, or have you not learnt that lesson yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiderHider Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 Good post mate, I know where you're coming from completely, you've certainly ruffled the blouses of the oh so superior big girls on here! Whose ruffled. Just stating common knowledge that hooliganism offered nothing positive to the club or football as a whole and a hell of a lot of negatives - such as death, overpolicing, children being scared, innocent bystanders maimed, etc etc etc. I agree I am oh so superior to a thug. A thug makes himself inferior by his brainless thuggish actions. Men will fight, its what we do, no surprise it happens in football where you have that mob spirit. Blame our genitcs, you will never separate football and violence as you will never separate man and violence, ever ever ever, so we should stop trying to and focus our attentions to things we can change. best feeling ever is being in a fight, even if you get a kicking yourself its just a bit of fun. I draw the line at attacking scarfers or picking on kids, thats just bullying and is despicable. But if a group of guys wanna have a fight then what the **** does it have to do with anyone else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redfieldred Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 was in absolute awe to be honest. My dad used to take me in the enclosure, right by the whitewashed walls of the tunnel stood on a fold away metal stool (imagine that nowadays). I was there too- on a screw on leg wooden stool - it only just fitted on the step - proper treacherous - was held there by amount of fans packed in i reckon. Saw some great stuff on the pitch, but the armosphere was down to being in the first or top of the second division, not having a 'crew'. The surges in the East-End were a sight to behold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frome Valley Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 Yeah but Glastonbury is a gathering of 170,000 people the majority of whom are there to get off their faces. It's a city the size of Sunderland appearing in the countryside for a week- of course it needs policing. Plus, (I'm assuming you go) gave you seen the quantities of drugs that are consumed there?! That's perhaps a whole different argument but the bottom line is, there are a lot of people doing a lot of illegal things at Glastonbury. Don't get me wrong, I love the place- I'm having my honeymoon there next year (tickets allowing)- but to argue that it doesn't need police is ludicrous. I do take your points on the criminalisation of certain lifestyle choices though As for rugby, what about rugby league? Incredibly working class and hardly any trouble there Last one for sometime as I do not communuicate with my Mrs this much. Once Glastonbury was smaller, cheaper and attended by people who were much more rebellious. The entire festival scene is a shadow of its self, alternative most of it is now not.A form of social engineering was almost applied. Former independent festivals are now anything but. The criminal justice act targetted anarchists. eco warriors, festivals, football fans, travellers, ravers, trade unionists, squatters and many more who hardly fitted in with political leaders view of the world. Rugby league is a minority sport, I do not know much about to be honest. What I can observe is that many laws affecting the mentioned are applied not because of safety and lots of danger, but because people do not like their lifestyles whether that be a toke, driving big bedford trucks around with dreadlocks in the summer, fag stood up in football stadium or listening to music with 150 bpm in a public field. Football culture is being smothered with political correctness, stifling H&S and commercialisation - TV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 I lost a friend a few years ago because of a "little slap" he fell hit his head and it didn't help the thug putting the boot in while on the floor, Those who think hooligans are harmless and the "let them fight" culture are thestupid ones not those condoneing it, es there was a lot of trouble yes there was alot of firms but no adays it isn't just a slap and fight in the park there are knifes and all sorts involved, There was a "litter" scuffle in Burnley a few years ago resulting in some one being stabbed to death thats the terrace culture you miss, We are alot better off now Looked it up, it was a forest fan stabbed to death in burnley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tall King Blox Posted September 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 Wow guy's this is going into meltdown, it was only an observation from an old un relating to a time before his teens, but some cracking posts Like the can of worms, opened them myself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cider_dog Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 No, thats how YOU feel alive. You get off on violence. It's not needed at football stadiums among other places. Violence will perpetuate violence. Surely a seasoned individual as yourself knows that, or have you not learnt that lesson yet? Fair comment that is how I feel alive, I did try watching X factor and even sat through a tennis match a Wimbledon...sadly it did not even come close. I also served in Belfast with the British Army, that WAS scary, but I was a younger man then... kindly stop patronizing me. The 'lesson' I have learnt is that violence is inherent in mankind, you will never change it and some young men embrace it. I am not talking about smashing up pubs, frightening children or throwing missiles at police...just that a punch up on a Saturday afternoon between consenting people is hardly WW3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiderHider Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 I lost a friend a few years ago because of a "little slap" he fell hit his head and it didn't help the thug putting the boot in while on the floor, Those who think hooligans are harmless and the "let them fight" culture are thestupid ones not those condoneing it, es there was a lot of trouble yes there was alot of firms but no adays it isn't just a slap and fight in the park there are knifes and all sorts involved, There was a "litter" scuffle in Burnley a few years ago resulting in some one being stabbed to death thats the terrace culture you miss, We are alot better off now When people bring knives its time to go home, weapon kill, as for laying the boot in when your down, thats just bang out of order, hooligans i know have standards, after a fight they may even help you up and shake your hand. Gangsta rap/Black music is to blame for knife crime, ******* little ******s stabbing each other, WTF? When I was a lad we used to carry guns and knifes, swords, throwing stars around in the street, nobosy battered an eyelid, but nobody actually used them on people jesus christ! But then I didn't live in a ghetto shithole like south/east london Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin phantom Posted September 25, 2012 Admin Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 like my response to Redfield Red regarding something else, this is not something I'm qualified to speak about. However, to my (admittedly) very vague knowledge of rugby T20 (!? I'm assuming this is union or something like that!?), the very dynamic of the crowd is different and made up of a hotch potch of ex-public schoolboys, fox-hunting sympathisers, estate agents and middle-aged women in their ankle length dresses and thermos full of tea. I might be incorrect on this, and feel free to correct me. If I'm right, I'd rather rugby kept this demographic. Not true, in fact a T20 crowd is often compared to that of a football crowd, purely because people drink lots and make lots of noise. Perhaps you should venture down to Taunton next summer for an education on this - I'll buy you a pint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 Not true, in fact a T20 crowd is often compared to that of a football crowd, purely because people drink lots and make lots of noise. Perhaps you should venture down to Taunton next summer for an education on this - I'll buy you a pint even for the 40 over and 4 day games its worth a venture down always a good crack and a great day out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan Tansley Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 Fair comment that is how I feel alive, I did try watching X factor and even sat through a tennis match a Wimbledon...sadly it did not even come close. I also served in Belfast with the British Army, that WAS scary, but I was a younger man then... kindly stop patronizing me. The 'lesson' I have learnt is that violence is inherent in mankind, you will never change it and some young men embrace it. I am not talking about smashing up pubs, frightening children or throwing missiles at police...just that a punch up on a Saturday afternoon between consenting people is hardly WW3. But why do you have to ruin things for the majority who are not interested in the thrills you seek? Why can't you keep the violence away from football? I couldn't give a toss if like-'minded' chaps want to kick seven shades of shit out of each other... It could be argued as natural selection... But why ruin things for me and several million others across the country? I've never been in a fight at the football in my life, I've never tried to act hard walking to an away ground either... So why is that I should have my freedoms taken away by the police simply because somebody else wants to act up? That's the gripe many have with it. Go to a field, have a fight. Kill each other for all I care, but please don't make the thing I love more difficult to enjoy than it should be. This has got nothing to do with sanitising football at all either. Nobody will ever be able to provide a credible argument as to why violence and football should ever be linked. Nobody will ever be able to provide a credible argument that the atmosphere at football has any correlation with violence either. It is nonsensical to even suggest that without violence there cannot be tribal hostility, banter and loud energetic support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 rugby league was notorious for mass disorder in the 80s - refer to Hull City Psychos by Sean Tordorff for more information. Yes, it's a book about Hull's football mob, but it gives plenty of space for the rugby team and what they got up to. Just as bad as the football escapades in fact, if not worse. Yeah, the two Hull teams were bad for it in the 80s and early 90s- much of it related to football firms. Castleford and Warrington have had their moments in the past. But for the most part, and certainly today, two sets of fans will mix together, drunk together and shout together without so much as a cross word Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redeye Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 If young men want to fight, let them fight. On the trains, on the parks, on the terraces... If they are only fighting each other whats the harm done? Alas I am a bit old a frail to throw some blows nowadays, but back in the eighties I played my part. British Football is NOT Opera, Waitrose, BBC3 or Vuvu ******* zelas. It is a tribal, spite filled battle held on a rectangle of green pasture. That's why I love it. And yes, I would pay for a ticket to the Rome Colosseum to watch gladiators fight to the death. Why? Because that's how you feel ALIVE . Rant over. Oh the irony - putting yourself on a pedestal of a Roman patrition - when for all intents and purposes you could have been a Roman pleb... More than likely - you would have been the Barbarian - fighting for your life..... And therefore in your element - as you say fighting makes you feel alive..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southside Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 And there it is again, questioning someone's masculinity just because they don't condone violence at a football match. Pathetic. Get a sense of humour you scruffy fu**er Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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