Your Views - Response

[Aizoon]

For my wife's birthday we went to the Director's Lounge at the Showcase in Cabot Circus. We saw an excellent film* on a good-sized screen and superb sound. Decent food, comfortable seats in pairs, with a little table for food and pint of cider. Pleasant, helpful staff. Altogether an ace experience.

She thought it was a bit expensive at 11 quid a head. She boggled when I told her that 22 quid would barely get one seat at the Gate with precisely none of those luxuries. No wonder people are choosing other modes of entertainment!

* Life of Pi, which I recommend

[WellRedPhil]

Some points considered, some completely brushed over, and some very strange excuses, I.e cannot respond because of a flood at home. Bad luck to him, but doesn't stop him working from the club and answering emails, like anyone else, you still go to work.

Got to say I was expecting more, seems like a lot of back slapping of what the club has done well and agreeing with the fans when it is not in the clubs control, I.e web site.

Bit disappointed with some of the feedback here dave. All a little wishy washy. But if that is how the club sees it, then I guess that is what us as fans have to work with. Looks like you are making stuff up without consulting the board, look at what you wrote about a fan on the board. "I would be surprised if. ......" suggests to me that this hasn't even been discussed. Would it have not been better if you came back when you knew more, rather than second guess Steve.

Whole thing raises more questions than answers. Thanks for the reply though, you clearly have been through it bit by bit. Lets hope some change for the better can come from it.

I've got to say these 2 lines from TRL sum up my thoughts. A lot of generic answers. Talk of work The Community Trust is doing is all well and good but it is not the only factor in the link between fans and players. Barely acknowledging the serious issue with stewarding currently in the EE and instead referring to an award we won for good service is papering over cracks. These are very real issues that real fans have encountered this season. It's a positive step that this thread has happened and in your defence you have clearly spent a lot of time reading/replying but this post seems (unsurprisingly) in defence of the Club on practically every major issue.

I guess the contradictions between cider head's take on the EE movement and your own sum up the difference in opinion or perhaps in your fairness sheer lack of knowledge on your part in what has been happening in some aspects of the Club.

[Red Knowle]

The East End / Stewarding

This always has, and always will be, an emotive subject.

Cast your minds back to 2002. The East End was closed, and a body of fans embarked on a campaign to get it re-opened. Little by little, this happened, but restrictions on access were still in place, and this understandably created some bad feeling.

Over a period of time, thanks to the hard work of people like Sean Takle, Stuart Rogers and many others, as well as support from those of us who work at City, we have now arrived at a situation where the East End is open to all. Season ticket holders in there enjoy the cheapest season ticket in the Championship its even cheaper than a ticket to watch the Gas.

We have actively supported and encouraged fan-led initiatives such as the graffiti art, flags, surfer flags etc. I cannot remember the last time we were approached by anyone with an idea to create some atmosphere in the East End that we turned down. If you can think of one, please let me know. We are hugely appreciative of the support that the East End brings when in full flow.

But if people stand on seats, they will be asked to get off them. If they stand in gangways, blocking fire exits, they will be asked to move. Supporters in the East End have campaigned long and hard to be treated like fans in all the other stands, so they can hardly complain when they are. But how this is done is clearly an issue.

There are several general criticisms of the stewarding in the East End. If anybody has any specific allegations about a particular steward, then let me know, and I promise it will be investigated thoroughly. I have received, by e-mail, a complaint about a specific stewarding issue at the Peterborough game, and I have promised that I will follow it up. There are usually two sides to every story and its important that we hear both.

The fact that there are currently no flags on display in the East End is because supporters have decided to stop displaying them. You are welcome to display flags wherever you want, providing they dont cover advertising. As I have also made clear previously, you are free to surf the large flag before games or at half-time and we will actively support you in doing this. The decision not to surf is another that has been made by supporters.

I have repeatedly said, and will say again now, that I am more than happy to meet with fans from the East End either individually or in groups at the pub of your choice, or even at your house, at a time of your choosing, to discuss anything you want. I have made this offer several times before, both in my blog and on this forum, and repeat it now. I really believe that if we all sit down and talk about these issues it will be easier for us to find common ground. We wont find that via internet postings and blogs. I will be getting in touch with activists in the East End to discuss a suitable time and date.

I was impressed with posts from Cider Head and Frome Valley showing what Crystal Palace are doing at Selhurst Park. There was a time last year when I thought we were heading in that direction too, but we seem to have gone off the rails somehow.

The PA system has clearly seen better days and needs replacing. I dont know why home fans were not allowed behind the goal for the Peterborough game. I will find out.

I am very busy on a matchday meeting with supporters around the ground. I dont usually get to the East End before a game as most fans tend to turn up quite late, by which time I am busy elsewhere. I think its important that I rearrange my schedule so that I watch a whole game from in there, and meet with fans beforehand, and I will.

In the meantime, Kevin Smith and I will be travelling up on one of the supporters coaches to Blackburn on Saturday and watching the game with City fans. Come and say hello.

He can get on a coach to Blackburn but can't go on Ziderheads? What the ****?!

The reason supporters have stop doing stuff is because the club mugged them off like some sad bunch of ***** for a poxy £100k. Not even 10 weeks wages for some of our so called players. Well, that just about sums the whole ******* problem up.

No longer do these people live in the real world

Pretty sure the figure going around was more a weeks money to some. the way it was dealt was a mugging off. Dave L probably is not the one to pop at though.

[Bcfc-Chris]

Thanks Dave, really good to hear. Although I think there is more than what meets the eye with the Eastend, and it'd be great if you could go on Ziderheads.

[TRL]

I've got to say these 2 lines from TRL sum up my thoughts. A lot of generic answers. Talk of work The Community Trust is doing is all well and good but it is not the only factor in the link between fans and players. Barely acknowledging the serious issue with stewarding currently in the EE and instead referring to an award we won for good service is papering over cracks. These are very real issues that real fans have encountered this season. It's a positive step that this thread has happened and in your defence you have clearly spent a lot of time reading/replying but this post seems (unsurprisingly) in defence of the Club on practically every major issue.

I guess the contradictions between cider head's take on the EE movement and your own sum up the difference in opinion or perhaps in your fairness sheer lack of knowledge on your part in what has been happening in some aspects of the Club.

Quite true, Dave himself admitted further up he doesn't go into the east End as it is too late filling up, this suggests his info is 2nd hand. Maybe he should go in there incognito for a game, to get a true perspective, rather than 2nd hand.

[Nibor]

This club looks more and more like a company and less and less like a football club. And it's supposed to be a fking FOOTBALL CLUB. It exists to play the best football it can for the enjoyment of fans, everything else being completely incidental to that. It is a business only insofar as necessary to pay the bills, not one whit more.

The people running it are not supposed to be managers of a business, they are supposed to be custodians of a club that exists purely for the benefit of it's fans. Employees are not supposed to want to market to a demographic, or knock one out over a brand, or sell stuff to customers. And we're FANS, not customers. We either support or we don't, we don't get to switch brands.

The attitude and mindset of the current set of custodians is the root of every problem we currently have. The whole culture is wrong from the top downwards and this very process is evidence of that. Asking for feedback and having a PR mouthpiece produce a politic reply? Sounds like a PLC or a government ministry to me not a football club.

We've even got someone talking about SMART objectives for christ's sake. That business bull absolutely has to go, it is a huge part of the yawning chasm that exists between the custodians and the fans. We have to stop people at the club from thinking like they're part of a business first and foremost.

So far this initiative reminds me of the old management employee survey. Action plans, meetings, stakeholders, blah blah blah, nice powerpoint and some exec pats on the back and nothing changes except everyone gets a little more disillusioned and cynical.

That's what's happening here. In this whole diatribe, there is not one thing actually done.

"raise issues", "speak to", "meet with", "feed back", "make excuses", "next season". No, no, no. Stop that and fking DO. No more fobbing it off, lip service and hiding behind poor excuses.

Do, and do it NOW, and don't bother telling us about it until it's done.

For example:

• Exit the FLi contract. They haven't delivered so it should be possible to terminate it. Stop making excuses, stop pretending to polish the turd and get a website produced that allows the club to communicate with fans.

• Approach local firms who sell high quality food and drink (pieminister, bristol beer factory, the lounge, bath ales etc) about catering and move them in as soon as the current contract can be terminated.

• Get rid of the netting sponsors and hand the money back. You should never have sold these ads, a few hundred pounds at the price of disillusioning the fans was never worth it and it should have been obvious. Apologise and ask the fans to bring the flags back. Learn from the mistake.

• Fix the vouchers NOW, not next season. Send everyone "50% off when you spend £5" vouchers or similar up to the promised value. And don't lie about it either, it's insulting. It was never the intention of whoever came up with those vouchers to give fans value, it was trying to sell more stuff to customers at no loss. It was marketing, not reward.

• Lose the business people. Anybody who hasn't spoken to several fans about several different topics in the last month has no business whatsoever being a custodian of the club, at any level in any capacity. Get rid.

• Hire back people previously fired from roles where they did spend their time talking to fans. Those people are important, not a cost saving opportunity that the suit wearers can use to justify bonuses.

• Re-instate direct communication from fans to directors. Not through committees, or carefully managed sessions. Encourage (require!) open, ad-hoc communications. It doesn't have to be just an internet forum, get these people walking around the pubs in BS3 on match days, and sitting in the stands with the fans instead of cloistered away in the directors box. Don't pretend the dialogue through carefully managed organised intermediaries is anywhere near an adequate replacement for direct contact.

There are plenty more things that can be done but sadly I doubt anything actually will be. I'd bet not one single concrete positive thing comes out of this whole exercise, and that it will just leave everyone a shade more cynical and disconnected.

[NickJ]

Dave,

So many things wrong with your reply but here's the biggest and most fundamental:

In response to your invitation to fans to say why there is such a massive bridge between club and fans, you have received thousands and thousands and thousands of words of heart felt constructive feedback from folk who thought that our views would be taken seriously.

Your response has been to recite all the things that are already being done, with NOT ONE single specific action point as to what you and the club will do to address the issues that have been raised. Read your reply.

If all the things you are doing were the answer, this discussion wouldn't be taking place in the first place.

Gammon on ziderheads has put this point a lot more succinctly as no doubt you will have seen.

[NickJ]

Just read Nibor's reply. Absolutely spot on.

Please, the Bristol Rovers fan, the Chester fan, the Southampton fan, the Tottenham fan, running this club, please depart Bristol City and leave it to the likes of Nibor, cider head, north street, Bristol boy (TTO), Thatcham Red, Milo, all of whom other than the first I know, and all of whom between them, and others, would do a better job of running this football club for the FANS.

[Aizoon]

What Nibor said.

[cider head]

If it was 100k i would be very peed off as a company with just a net over the segregation and i would want my logo plastered around the whole ground, try taking off 80k

The supporters trust looked in to the EE stand sponsoring and it was around 20k

[Guest]

Just read Nibor's reply. Absolutely spot on.

Please, the Bristol Rovers fan, the Chester fan, the Southampton fan, the Tottenham fan, running this club, please depart Bristol City and leave it to the likes of Nibor, cider head, north street, Bristol boy (TTO), Thatcham Red, Milo, all of whom other than the first I know, and all of whom between them, and others, would do a better job of running this football club for the FANS.

Agree, action is better than a million words

[Aizoon]

You post about going to films and shows - and even to Gas matches.

You go to watch the Gas - but always seem to be on here on matchdays.

I find you very annoying.

It's mutual.

How can one possibly criticise an organisation that's getting it wrong without giving examples of others that get it right?

I've been a City supporter for over 50 years, but I get down there less and less often, for reasons that should be blindingly obvious to anyone who's followed this thread.

If I'm going to spend £28 to see 2nd division relegation fodder, I want to do it somewhere I'm made welcome, with decent facilities. If that seems unreasonable to you, you can be sure that it seems very reasonable to those who are staying away in droves.

[View from the Dolman]

I'll concentrate my reply to David on what I know best...

I think that the poor quality of the website has been a major contribution to the information gap that fans have experienced – certainly complaints have arisen since we reluctantly launched in October (one of the last two clubs to switch over).

Virtually everyone – including those who have to operate it – agree that the new website is very poor. It’s gone from something that won four awards a few years ago to something that is barely fit for purpose. Unfortunately we are locked into a contract with Football league Interactive until 2017 and have to make the best of it. To come out of that contract early would cost a sum running into several million pounds, which is clearly not financially viable.

Our head of communications, Adam Baker, has been on a working party with other football league clubs to work on fixing bugs and improving the site, and it is slowly getting better. But it is still a million miles away from where we would ideally like it to be, and is a source of huge frustration to everyone at City.

I have to say I find this whole project somewhat worrying and frustrating as someone who has years of experience with a international e-commerce site with tens of millions of visitors annually.

The new website is beyond poor. It was, is and continues to be an absolute abomination of a site.

If I was responsible for the contracting of Sapient Nitro (by FLi), I would have no future in the web industry. Has anyone faced up to getting this call wrong?

If I was responsible for the production of the site, I would have no future in the web industry. Has anyone faced up to failing to deliver the goods?

Who signed the contract between BCFC and FLi? Are we really talking of millions of pounds of cost to the club? Who exactly thought this contract was a good idea?

To read that this site "is slowly getting better" seems to be a joke. The Millwall match report was blank until sometime the day after the match. The McInnes transfer window preview article wasn't viewable for in excess of 2 days I believe. There's plenty of other issues (both content and technically). I would list them but I don't have enough spare time to be working on a voluntary basis to correct the work of an organisation that has 30+ offices worldwide.

Some of the issues are so baffling I am mystified how any of these FLi sites were considered ready for public consumption. The fact that some of the more basic errors haven't been addressed (both on the BCFC site and across the FLi network) is worrying.

Why do we seemed almost resigned to living with a steaming turd for four more years? If they are unable to deliver the goods, surely they are in breach of contract and we should find somebody that has basic competencies. Bristol's digital media scene is alive with talent if we need them.

It doesn't need working parties and talking shops. It needs a competent contractor, it needs actions, it needs resolutions.

People refer to the ‘decimation’ of the media department following the departure of one person in the summer, but he’s actually been replaced. We have Mark Perrow, who was with us last season, and Connor Dicks - originally brought in as an unpaid intern, but is now an employee – working at the club.

This is particularly of interest and somewhat worrying and concerning. James was a friendly face at the club, and reflected the positive vibe around the club of those enjoyable days which seem a distant memory. I think all supporters who came across him (either digitally via Twitter) or in person (at matches or just generally around the club) will have been endeared to him - despite not being a City fan, he took City to heart and was evidently passionate about his work and the club itself.

To discard him under the guise of cost-cutting and redundancy was a shame but everyone recognised that we have to be more frugal.

However to then see that we brought somebody in as an unpaid intern (which is highly dubious and of questionable legality) is disappointing. If the job still needed doing, then reduandncy was not valid. It does also smack of somewhat abusing a fan's desire to be in and around the club in return for free labour. Considering Bristol's history, it's a bit shameful in my opinion.

To then replace him and to quote you "he's actually been replaced" is also of questionable morals and questionable legality. Section 139 of the Employment Rights Act 1996 defines what is redundancy.

(1) For the purposes of this Act an employee who is dismissed shall be taken to be dismissed by reason of redundancy if the dismissal is wholly or mainly attributable to—

(a) the fact that his employer has ceased or intends to cease—

(i) to carry on the business for the purposes of which the employee was employed by him, or

(ii) to carry on that business in the place where the employee was so employed, or

(b) the fact that the requirements of that business—

(i) for employees to carry out work of a particular kind, or

(ii) for employees to carry out work of a particular kind in the place where the employee was employed by the employer,

have ceased or diminished or are expected to cease or diminish.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/18/section/139

Basic employment law suggests that this could constitute a case of unfair dismissal.

The content on the website is the same as before, but unfortunately the system we have to work with does not allow it to be presented as is needed (ie. accessibility and usability).

Yes, design and navigation is shocking but in my opinion the actual quality of the work has declined. Certainly, earlier in the season many articles contained basic errors which made them less readable. This and the reduction of usability of the site mean I tend to look less often (as undoubtedly the club's own Google Analytics data will show is the case across the board). Even today, an article contains two basic errors.

"The event will take place at the Bristol Royal Marriott Hotel on Saturday, March 23th and tickets are now on sale."

"He enjoyed a testimonial game in August, when City beat against local rivals Bristol Rovers 3-0."

Yes, these are hardly crimes but it does, in my personal opinion, reflect a shift in quality downwards.

Incidentally, I won't link to the article since that would be in breach of the Terms of Use. Yes, these are generic to the FLi network but they're out there with Bristol City's name flying above them - are we happy to say fans cannot link to the website (other than the homepage)?

With regards to Player, we continue to produce extended highlights internally, over and above the basic highlights package supplied centrally, to enhance the offering to subscribers. To those requesting that we make all interviews and highlights free-to-air to supporters, or at least season ticket holders, that is not a possibility under the terms of the FLi contract.

Again, the Player service isn't quite what it once promised and delivered. Most recently, pre-match interviews in advance of the Ipswich, ill-fated Watford and Peterborough games consisted of zero interviews, zero seconds, zero content. Nothing. Nada. Zilch.

Our extended match highlights also are of low quality. If you compare, for example, our extended highlights against Derby County's against the Derby website's full ninety minutes ours are presented in distorted aspect ratio (as has been the case for home matches throughout this season) and of significantly worse quality (almost as if ours are being uploaded at a lower bitrate) even when comparing our high quality version against DCFC's.

To be fair, I've not had much reason to take in the extended highlights this season so maybe I'm moaning over nothing... but even if you take our home wins against Crystal Palace (6:43) and Cardiff (5:21) they don't compare too favourably against last season's extended highlights which appear to have typically come in at least 10 minutes most of the time. Obviously some games like a dour 0-0 might not be worthy of 10 minutes but impressive wins do appear to have been somewhat short-changed.

[Guest]

If it was 100k i would be very peed off as a company with just a net over the segregation and i would want my logo plastered around the whole ground, try taking off 80k

The supporters trust looked in to the EE stand sponsoring and it was around 20k

CH and co = Fans = Action

DL and co = Club = Talk = get everything they can from the fans anyway.

[cider head]

This club looks more and more like a company and less and less like a football club. And it's supposed to be a fking FOOTBALL CLUB. It exists to play the best football it can for the enjoyment of fans, everything else being completely incidental to that. It is a business only insofar as necessary to pay the bills, not one whit more.

The people running it are not supposed to be managers of a business, they are supposed to be custodians of a club that exists purely for the benefit of it's fans. Employees are not supposed to want to market to a demographic, or knock one out over a brand, or sell stuff to customers. And we're FANS, not customers. We either support or we don't, we don't get to switch brands.

The attitude and mindset of the current set of custodians is the root of every problem we currently have. The whole culture is wrong from the top downwards and this very process is evidence of that. Asking for feedback and having a PR mouthpiece produce a politic reply? Sounds like a PLC or a government ministry to me not a football club.

We've even got someone talking about SMART objectives for christ's sake. That business bull absolutely has to go, it is a huge part of the yawning chasm that exists between the custodians and the fans. We have to stop people at the club from thinking like they're part of a business first and foremost.

So far this initiative reminds me of the old management employee survey. Action plans, meetings, stakeholders, blah blah blah, nice powerpoint and some exec pats on the back and nothing changes except everyone gets a little more disillusioned and cynical.

That's what's happening here. In this whole diatribe, there is not one thing actually done.

"raise issues", "speak to", "meet with", "feed back", "make excuses", "next season". No, no, no. Stop that and fking DO. No more fobbing it off, lip service and hiding behind poor excuses.

Do, and do it NOW, and don't bother telling us about it until it's done.

For example:

• Exit the FLi contract. They haven't delivered so it should be possible to terminate it. Stop making excuses, stop pretending to polish the turd and get a website produced that allows the club to communicate with fans.

• Approach local firms who sell high quality food and drink (pieminister, bristol beer factory, the lounge, bath ales etc) about catering and move them in as soon as the current contract can be terminated.

• Get rid of the netting sponsors and hand the money back. You should never have sold these ads, a few hundred pounds at the price of disillusioning the fans was never worth it and it should have been obvious. Apologise and ask the fans to bring the flags back. Learn from the mistake.

• Fix the vouchers NOW, not next season. Send everyone "50% off when you spend £5" vouchers or similar up to the promised value. And don't lie about it either, it's insulting. It was never the intention of whoever came up with those vouchers to give fans value, it was trying to sell more stuff to customers at no loss. It was marketing, not reward.

• Lose the business people. Anybody who hasn't spoken to several fans about several different topics in the last month has no business whatsoever being a custodian of the club, at any level in any capacity. Get rid.

• Hire back people previously fired from roles where they did spend their time talking to fans. Those people are important, not a cost saving opportunity that the suit wearers can use to justify bonuses.

• Re-instate direct communication from fans to directors. Not through committees, or carefully managed sessions. Encourage (require!) open, ad-hoc communications. It doesn't have to be just an internet forum, get these people walking around the pubs in BS3 on match days, and sitting in the stands with the fans instead of cloistered away in the directors box. Don't pretend the dialogue through carefully managed organised intermediaries is anywhere near an adequate replacement for direct contact.

There are plenty more things that can be done but sadly I doubt anything actually will be. I'd bet not one single concrete positive thing comes out of this whole exercise, and that it will just leave everyone a shade more cynical and disconnected.

Spot on post

And if below is possible then there is a big chance fans would repond ready to go properly next season:

Get rid of the netting sponsors and hand the money back. You should never have sold these ads, a few hundred pounds at the price of disillusioning the fans was never worth it and it should have been obvious. Apologise and ask the fans to bring the flags back.

Learn from the mistake.

I have spoken to some and they are seeking the small thing that is an apology

To be fair to Dave L it was not his decision and he did get in touch after the event, fans effort etc was lost, nobody apologised. His idea of one club is great one but those who make decsions like the one mentiomed are not the way it will be done.

[Aizoon]

I'm sure it is.

But the fact that I go to more City games a year - travelling from Australia - than you do from Whoreland speaks volumes.

The confessed fact that you actually attend Rovers games - but not City games makes you .. well, I can't post the word I'm thinking.

Seriously 2000+ posts - when was the last time you watched us live?

You were at the Gas 4 weeks ago.

Sorry. Where did you get that idea? I haven't been there all season. The catering doesn't make up for the carp football

As to my mentioning the Gas and the cinema, how can one possibly criticise an organisation that's getting it wrong without giving examples of others that get it right?

I've been a City supporter for over 50 years, but I get down there less and less often, for reasons that should be blindingly obvious to anyone who's followed this thread.

If I'm going to spend £28 to see 2nd division relegation fodder, I want to do it somewhere I'm made welcome, with decent facilities. If that seems unreasonable to you, you can be sure that it seems very reasonable to those others who are staying away in droves.

I've put my shifts in at the football face. If I go to a game now, I want to have at least the possibility of enjoying my day out and getting value for money. Selfish, perhaps, but I'm not the only one who feels that way.

Let me give you an example. If the film I went to see at the Director's had been total carp, which is not beyond the bounds of imagination, I would at least have had a pleasant evening out.

Can you say the same of the current facilities at the Gate?

[Geoff65]

What can you do as a liaison officer is ask yourself what are the most awkward questions I can be asked when publishing this blog, article etc... and do I have the answers. Does what I say have a ring of truth to it, if not, why not, why try and justify bullshit with more bullshit after the event, the best way is to stop the bullshit at source and get to the crux of an issue and work upwards from there.

Ask yourself this, would you rather watch a press conference live and draw your own conclusions or miss the press conference and rely on the reporters of the Daily Mail, The Sun etc... to give you the information? You need to delve and question a lot more before going to print, go to the source of the issue and don't rely on the answers from anyone and especially anyone who says it's "health and safety" and if they start waffling don't print the story at all until you are satisfied you can answer all and every question that comes up.

[Guest]

I don't think it would be possible to exit the FLI contract with regards to the clubs website. The financial penalties are huge - I'd label it entrapment personally. I don't know what breach of contract the club could throw back at them but its certainly not fit for purpose. Any webdesign/media company wouldn't have got a penny from there client if they delivered such a shambolic setup. I would stress of course this isn't Adam's fault in any sense and I know he's worked hard to try and get a better service for us.

I'm disapointed with the quality of the highlights this year. The actual picture quality is very poor and yes the highlight lengths have dropped by a good 50% - I'd like to see the low/med/high res options work. Do we have a HD camera recording the games? Is it the video editing software that's the issue? Can we have full 90 minutes uploaded in pretty much 'raw' format (no replays etc) at the very least?

[paulcitymod]

Thanks Dave I am very glad to see that you mentioned the management have seen the thread. Should be enough

[frenchred]

BBC and Sky are telling us now that Brett Pitman has left us, length of contract etc, guess what? Nothing on official site!

Sorry just found it hidden away! apologies

[Club and Country]

Dave l, given you a lot of stick on the previous thread, and I must say I think your reply is complete tosh And does not seriously address any of the questions raised IMO

However, FairPlay, you are just taking the stick for what 90% of the things said aren't your fault

Basically, put mcinnes, the players and board infront of the fans.

Hopefully see you soon in a pub around bs3, where the masses off fans with opinions wait!

[pikeysrobins]

BBC and Sky are telling us now that Brett Pitman has left us, length of contract etc, guess what? Nothing on official site!

Yes there is! It's such a crap site that you have to search but it's been there for a few hours!

[View from the Dolman]

I don't think it would be possible to exit the FLI contract with regards to the clubs website. The financial penalties are huge - I'd label it entrapment personally. I don't know what breach of contract the club could throw back at them but its certainly not fit for purpose. Any webdesign/media company wouldn't have got a penny from there client if they delivered such a shambolic setup. I would stress of course this isn't Adam's fault in any sense and I know he's worked hard to try and get a better service for us.

To my mind, it doesn't need to be BCFC ending ties with FLi - the collective working is a good strategy that means the smaller clubs can have a good web presence. But surely the clubs collectively through FLi should at least seek to end ties with Sapient Nitro and find someone with some competencies.

[Jordan Tansley]

This club looks more and more like a company and less and less like a football club. And it's supposed to be a fking FOOTBALL CLUB. It exists to play the best football it can for the enjoyment of fans, everything else being completely incidental to that. It is a business only insofar as necessary to pay the bills, not one whit more.

The people running it are not supposed to be managers of a business, they are supposed to be custodians of a club that exists purely for the benefit of it's fans. Employees are not supposed to want to market to a demographic, or knock one out over a brand, or sell stuff to customers. And we're FANS, not customers. We either support or we don't, we don't get to switch brands.

The attitude and mindset of the current set of custodians is the root of every problem we currently have. The whole culture is wrong from the top downwards and this very process is evidence of that. Asking for feedback and having a PR mouthpiece produce a politic reply? Sounds like a PLC or a government ministry to me not a football club.

We've even got someone talking about SMART objectives for christ's sake. That business bull absolutely has to go, it is a huge part of the yawning chasm that exists between the custodians and the fans. We have to stop people at the club from thinking like they're part of a business first and foremost.

So far this initiative reminds me of the old management employee survey. Action plans, meetings, stakeholders, blah blah blah, nice powerpoint and some exec pats on the back and nothing changes except everyone gets a little more disillusioned and cynical.

That's what's happening here. In this whole diatribe, there is not one thing actually done.

"raise issues", "speak to", "meet with", "feed back", "make excuses", "next season". No, no, no. Stop that and fking DO. No more fobbing it off, lip service and hiding behind poor excuses.

Do, and do it NOW, and don't bother telling us about it until it's done.

For example:

• Exit the FLi contract. They haven't delivered so it should be possible to terminate it. Stop making excuses, stop pretending to polish the turd and get a website produced that allows the club to communicate with fans.

• Approach local firms who sell high quality food and drink (pieminister, bristol beer factory, the lounge, bath ales etc) about catering and move them in as soon as the current contract can be terminated.

• Get rid of the netting sponsors and hand the money back. You should never have sold these ads, a few hundred pounds at the price of disillusioning the fans was never worth it and it should have been obvious. Apologise and ask the fans to bring the flags back. Learn from the mistake.

• Fix the vouchers NOW, not next season. Send everyone "50% off when you spend £5" vouchers or similar up to the promised value. And don't lie about it either, it's insulting. It was never the intention of whoever came up with those vouchers to give fans value, it was trying to sell more stuff to customers at no loss. It was marketing, not reward.

• Lose the business people. Anybody who hasn't spoken to several fans about several different topics in the last month has no business whatsoever being a custodian of the club, at any level in any capacity. Get rid.

• Hire back people previously fired from roles where they did spend their time talking to fans. Those people are important, not a cost saving opportunity that the suit wearers can use to justify bonuses.

• Re-instate direct communication from fans to directors. Not through committees, or carefully managed sessions. Encourage (require!) open, ad-hoc communications. It doesn't have to be just an internet forum, get these people walking around the pubs in BS3 on match days, and sitting in the stands with the fans instead of cloistered away in the directors box. Don't pretend the dialogue through carefully managed organised intermediaries is anywhere near an adequate replacement for direct contact.

There are plenty more things that can be done but sadly I doubt anything actually will be. I'd bet not one single concrete positive thing comes out of this whole exercise, and that it will just leave everyone a shade more cynical and disconnected.

Completely agree, very disappointed by the reply. It just smacks of more vague and half arsed rhetoric.

I want actual measurable goals, and if those promises aren't kept, I want the people responsible for making them and breaking them to held to account.

[Nibor]

I don't think it would be possible to exit the FLI contract with regards to the clubs website. The financial penalties are huge - I'd label it entrapment personally. I don't know what breach of contract the club could throw back at them but its certainly not fit for purpose. Any webdesign/media company wouldn't have got a penny from there client if they delivered such a shambolic setup.

I frankly do not believe the story about "millions" to get out, that would be a very, very unusual supply contract for software and services and I've seen quite a few of those.

I'd be amazed if it wasn't possible to exit on the grounds that the contract hadn't been satisfactorily fulfilled at little cost. Nobody will want to sue the club for doing that, it isn't in their interests to suffer the publicity.

In my experience when this happens the supplier's main interest is in hushing it up and there's some sort of "ongoing framework/partnership" nonsense to help cover up.

[Dave L]

Hopefully see you soon in a pub around bs3, where the masses off fans with opinions wait!

You will. Myself and Kevin Smith will be doing just this, hopefully before either the Leicester or Ipswich games. Miners and Robins were mentioned. We can either do it informally and just drop in and see who's there, or organise a specific meeting that people can come to. Discussed this with Stu Rogers today. Time to meet face to face and talk.

[TRL]

I frankly do not believe the story about "millions" to get out, that would be a very, very unusual supply contract for software and services and I've seen quite a few of those.

I'd be amazed if it wasn't possible to exit on the grounds that the contract hadn't been satisfactorily fulfilled at little cost. Nobody will want to sue the club for doing that, it isn't in their interests to suffer the publicity.

In my experience when this happens the supplier's main interest is in hushing it up and there's some sort of "ongoing framework/partnership" nonsense to help cover up.

One thing is for certain, this company are no, Oracle, or Microsoft, who would happily sue your arse off as they have market share. The negativity on their business would be pretty spectacular, especially as more and more clubs pulled out, time to put the pressure on for a better service from all league clubs.

[Club and Country]

Good news

[NickJ]

Supporter on the Board

Nick J and others wonder what the criteria might be for getting a supporter on the board of directors.

The board currently consists of three members: Keith Dawe, Jon Lansdown and Doug Harman. They report to Steve Lansdown as principal shareholder, and make their decisions based on input from the management team of Kevin Smith (Commercial Director), Guy Price (Operations Director), Maria Townsend (Financial Director) Adam Baker (Head of Communications) and Amy Kington (Community Trust Director). I will also feed in fans views on important issues. Kevin, Amy, Jon, Adam and Guy will also attend the Fans Parliament as required.

If we get this structure right and we havent yet then I would be surprised if Steve and the board would find it necessary to invite a supporter to attend board meetings.

Dave,

That wasn't exactly my question.

My question was, "what is it that the Supporters Trust has to do, which it hasn't yet done, to earn its seat on the board of directors?".

The background to the question was Steve's comment a few years ago, that this would "have to be earned".

So I'm simply looking for a follow up to the terms set by Steve, and therefore you would be wrong to be surprised if "Steve and the board would find it necessary to invite a supporter to attend board meetings", as this would be in direct contradiction to what Steve himself has previously indicated.

As you will have seen from earlier replies, I believe there are many City fans that I know of, and probably several times that that I don't, who could do a better job of running this football club than the current board, given the terms on which I (and most others judging by the can of worms you've opened on this thread) judge "better".

I therefore see my question as being quite fundamental, so look forward to the reply.

[Cliftonville]

Dave I think you do deserve praise for an attempt at tackling what is obvioulsy a very broad, and thorny topic. You have more than implied you agree with supporters on certain themes, but your aim of changing the perception of "the club" and "the fans" beinmg unified needs the movers above yourself to come out and narrate it. Nibor clearly states it is a football club, not just another business. The directors need to make clear statements, and back it up with actions clearly defining what the football club is about.