Mrs Thatcher Dead

[Portland Bill]

Arthur Scargill was the perfect enemy. He did everything Thatcher and MacGregor could have hoped for in an opponent. Played straight into the Government's hands in so many ways. He looked like a p***k, sounded like a p***k and acted like a p***k. He led the miner's to devastating defeat - just what Maggie wanted.

Wouldn't surprise me if either he was MI5 (unlikely) or more likely he was heavily influenced by someone who was MI5 and placed within the NUM.

The man was a prize tool.

Your a long way off, MI5 and the secret service with help from the Tory friendly press " did a job

on him". As I said before, read the book "The enemy within", it will show you and open your eyes to,just what the Establishment can do to a person when they want to.

Open your eyes,Hillsborough and Orgreave are another two classic cases.

[TRL]

cannot, cannot agree - her legacy is EXACTLY what is crippling our country -we are now a misguided attempt to become a pale shadow of what was essentially a dictatorship, you mentioned she wasnt a Hussain or a Hitler, no, she was far worse, (they were unapologetic in their 'iron fist' approach - unlike Thatcher who warped our notions of democracy to fullfill her ambitions) a corrosive influence who has polluted the ground for everyone who followed - we have had Blair, and now Cameron preening and pursuing the popularity they mistakenly believed she had enjoyed. List the the events she had a direct hand in - utterly destroying communities in an attempt to break the unions - turning the police into a political tool, a violent interventionist tool - used to crush opposition, privatising everything she could possibly get her claws into - promoting the culture of 'get rich at any means' city boys - pursuing an military, expansionist policy over the Falklands - introducing a swinging, divisive 'Poll Tax' at any means - taking away school milk, for gods sake! - her promotion of News International - support for General Pinochet - anti gay legislation - its a horrific list that has scarred our society and we are still paying the price.

This talk of 'respect' is also muddying the waters, Mark Thomas put it very well in the Independant quoting Tony bloody Blair;

Even if you disagree with someone very strongly, at the moment of their passing you should show some respect. Presumably then, when Bin Laden was killed, Blairs statement was: Although I didnt agree with Osamas policies, he was a conviction terrorist, a colourful character whose short films were not only fun but educational as well. He will be sadly missed.

I have no problem with the vitriol that has been poured out at her expense - I rail now at the mindless apathy that overwhelms so many people - battered into submission by the attritional, endless spoon feeding of 'we know whats best for you' aproach to goverment.

Class has been dissolved into an inderminate mush of frustration, but strangely, out of it all, the wealthy, the privelidged come out on top every time - our current government - the psuedo Thatchers - are happy to award millionaires and banker incentives to keep on milking the system - while everyone else pays, and how do they get away with it - because they dupe enough of us into believeing that thats our lot - that 'socialism' somehow brings with it something inherently 'un British' something that couldn't possibly be good for us - of course not, because it threatens the well off and wealthy - them.

You surely cannot, suddenley absolve her for the destruction and division she brought because she's dead, The miners who committed suicide because they couldn't feed their families, the soldiers who died pursuing her war, the bill for her deeds is immense - I for one will happily 'tramp the earth down' on her grave.

Maggie, Maggie, Maggie - out, out, OUT!

Never forgive, never forget.

Worse than saddam and Hitler? I'm guessing you are not a Shia muslim or a jew, black, gay or gypsy!

[Mr Mosquito]

Your a long way off, MI5 and the secret service with help from the Tory friendly press " did a job

on him". As I said before, read the book "The enemy within", it will show you and open your eyes to,just what the Establishment can do to a person when they want to.

Open your eyes,Hillsborough and Orgreave are another two classic cases.

I don't think there's anything too sinister above M15 and the Tory press doing their normal job on a Union leader - par for the course. At the end of the day, Arthur Scargill was a very poor strategist and his personality helped lead the miners to defeat when all was not lost had he not acted so hot headedly.

[Portland Bill]

I don't think there's anything too sinister above M15 and the Tory press doing their normal job on a Union leader - par for the course. At the end of the day, Arthur Scargill was a very poor strategist and his personality helped lead the miners to defeat when all was not lost had he not acted so hot headedly.

But..... You only think all this because this us what you were told at the time.

Have you ever thought to yourself that you were being told what they wanted to tell you and not actually the truth?

Clever these secret service people aren't they

[Esmond Million's Bung]

cannot, cannot agree - her legacy is EXACTLY what is crippling our country -we are now a misguided attempt to become a pale shadow of what was essentially a dictatorship, you mentioned she wasnt a Hussain or a Hitler, no, she was far worse, (they were unapologetic in their 'iron fist' approach - unlike Thatcher who warped our notions of democracy to fullfill her ambitions) a corrosive influence who has polluted the ground for everyone who followed - we have had Blair, and now Cameron preening and pursuing the popularity they mistakenly believed she had enjoyed. List the the events she had a direct hand in - utterly destroying communities in an attempt to break the unions - turning the police into a political tool, a violent interventionist tool - used to crush opposition, privatising everything she could possibly get her claws into - promoting the culture of 'get rich at any means' city boys - pursuing an military, expansionist policy over the Falklands - introducing a swinging, divisive 'Poll Tax' at any means - taking away school milk, for gods sake! - her promotion of News International - support for General Pinochet - anti gay legislation - its a horrific list that has scarred our society and we are still paying the price.

This talk of 'respect' is also muddying the waters, Mark Thomas put it very well in the Independant quoting Tony bloody Blair;

“Even if you disagree with someone very strongly, at the moment of their passing you should show some respect.” Presumably then, when Bin Laden was killed, Blair’s statement was: “Although I didn’t agree with Osama’s policies, he was a conviction terrorist, a colourful character whose short films were not only fun but educational as well. He will be sadly missed.”

I have no problem with the vitriol that has been poured out at her expense - I rail now at the mindless apathy that overwhelms so many people - battered into submission by the attritional, endless spoon feeding of 'we know whats best for you' aproach to goverment.

Class has been dissolved into an inderminate mush of frustration, but strangely, out of it all, the wealthy, the privelidged come out on top every time - our current government - the psuedo Thatchers - are happy to award millionaires and banker incentives to keep on milking the system - while everyone else pays, and how do they get away with it - because they dupe enough of us into believeing that thats our lot - that 'socialism' somehow brings with it something inherently 'un British' something that couldn't possibly be good for us - of course not, because it threatens the well off and wealthy - them.

You surely cannot, suddenley absolve her for the destruction and division she brought because she's dead, The miners who committed suicide because they couldn't feed their families, the soldiers who died pursuing her war, the bill for her deeds is immense - I for one will happily 'tramp the earth down' on her grave.

Maggie, Maggie, Maggie - out, out, OUT!

Never forgive, never forget.

So if your around when Blair pops his mega rich socialist clogs, will you also 'happily 'tramp the earth down' on his grave?. For widening the gap between rich and poor, leaving the country with more people below the UN poverty standard than when he took over and of course the soldiers who died and are still dying pursuing his wars, you surely cannot, suddenly absolve him for the continued division he brought and the abandonment of not only the last dregs of socialism from his party but also the abandonment of many of the people who swept him to power because he's dead, in my book a far greater evil, when Thatcher came in people were well aware of what to expect, when Blair came in most people expected social change but got more of the same.

[Portland Bill]

Heres a nice piece for some of you, the proof that Thatcher was even downgrading the Britishness of the Falkland Islanders.

A year later they were more British than any of us, but only when she needed the War!

According to British sources, the Argentines interpreted the failure of the British to react as a lack of interest in the Falklands due to the planned withdrawal (as part of a general reduction in size of the Royal Navy in 1981) of the last of the Antarctic Supply vessels, HMS Endurance, and by the British Nationality Act of 1981, which replaced the full British citizenship of Falkland Islanders with a more limited version.

Operation Sol in 1976 secretly landed a force of 50 men from the Argentine military under the command of Captain César Trombetta on the unoccupied Southern Thule, belonging to the British South Sandwich Islands, where they established the military outpost Corbeta Uruguay. This led to a formal protest from United Kingdom, and an effort to resolve the issue through diplomatic rather than military means. Operation Journeyman, the dispatching of a small military force to the South Atlantic by Callaghan's Labour government, may have helped avert further action and subsequent reports from the Joint Intelligence Committee (JIC) in 1977, 1979 and 1981 suggested that "as long as Argentina calculated that the British Government were prepared to negotiate seriously on sovereignty, it was unlikely to resort to force." However, if "... negotiations broke down, or if Argentina concluded from them that there was no prospect of real progress towards a negotiated transfer of sovereignty, there would be a high risk of its then resorting to more forceful measures, including direct military action."[6]

[Mr Mosquito]

But..... You only think all this because this us what you were told at the time.

Have you ever thought to yourself that you were being told what they wanted to tell you and not actually the truth?

Clever these secret service people aren't they

I know that had Joe Gormley still been leader of the Miners' Union then the miners would probably never have suffered such a terrible and total defeat.

[cityexile]

To quote a post some commedian made; I was entirely in support of a lavishly publically funded funeral for her...right up until the point she died.

[Antman]

So if your around when Blair pops his mega rich socialist clogs, will you also 'happily 'tramp the earth down' on his grave?. For widening the gap between rich and poor, leaving the country with more people below the UN poverty standard than when he took over and of course the soldiers who died and are still dying pursuing his wars, you surely cannot, suddenly absolve him for the continued division he brought and the abandonment of not only the last dregs of socialism from his party but also the abandonment of many of the people who swept him to power because he's dead, in my book a far greater evil, when Thatcher came in people were well aware of what to expect, when Blair came in most people expected social change but got more of the same.

maybe the Cider muddied my post - i have NO time for Blair and his contortions either - that quote exposed Blairs hypocrisy over the 'respect' for Thatcher

[Portland Bill]

So if your around when Blair pops his mega rich socialist clogs, will you also 'happily 'tramp the earth down' on his grave?. For widening the gap between rich and poor]

What like bringing in a minimum wage? That the Tories told us would cost "a million jobs.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

But..... You only think all this because this us what you were told at the time.

Have you ever thought to yourself that you were being told what they wanted to tell you and not actually the truth?

Clever these secret service people aren't they

Heres a nice piece for some of you, the proof that Thatcher was even downgrading the Britishness of the Falkland Islanders.

A year later they were more British than any of us, but only when she needed the War!

According to British sources, the Argentines interpreted the failure of the British to react as a lack of interest in the Falklands due to the planned withdrawal (as part of a general reduction in size of the Royal Navy in 1981) of the last of the Antarctic Supply vessels, HMS Endurance, and by the British Nationality Act of 1981, which replaced the full British citizenship of Falkland Islanders with a more limited version.

Operation Sol in 1976 secretly landed a force of 50 men from the Argentine military under the command of Captain César Trombetta on the unoccupied Southern Thule, belonging to the British South Sandwich Islands, where they established the military outpost Corbeta Uruguay. This led to a formal protest from United Kingdom, and an effort to resolve the issue through diplomatic rather than military means. Operation Journeyman, the dispatching of a small military force to the South Atlantic by Callaghan's Labour government, may have helped avert further action and subsequent reports from the Joint Intelligence Committee (JIC) in 1977, 1979 and 1981 suggested that "as long as Argentina calculated that the British Government were prepared to negotiate seriously on sovereignty, it was unlikely to resort to force." However, if "... negotiations broke down, or if Argentina concluded from them that there was no prospect of real progress towards a negotiated transfer of sovereignty, there would be a high risk of its then resorting to more forceful measures, including direct military action."[6]

Whatever the reasons for the war, it's far better than the illegal war that Blair took us into to assist the U S of A to prop it's ailing arms manufacturing base, with it's probable mass unemployment, oh yes some cheap oil to keep voters happy with their highly subsidised fuel prices for their gas guzzlers, oh yes of course all of the major re-building projects to prop their also ailing building trade collapse.

As for the secret services, there has been and will always be bullshit spouted in sensational books and articles in fact I seem to recall one paper back in the 60's claiming that MI5 were investigating whether Harold Wilson was a Russian mole.

What like bringing in a minimum wage? That the Tories told us would cost "a million jobs.

and yet they still managed to widen the gap between rich and poor and leave I believe at least 1 million more people below the UN poverty standard, than when they took over, that's socialism for you.

PS:- Him and his missus did ok though and that was always the main intention of Brand Blair.

[cityexile]

I actually know it is not a popular line, but I do find it interesting to compare Blairs with Maggies Govt,

Blairs, did:

- bring in the minimum wage;

- invest heavily in education and public services;

- see some real transformation in many of our urban areas, which are unrecognisable from 25 years ago.

- it was, surely most would agree, not a hugely divisive time in our history.

HOWEVER, it all get overwhelmed by 2 things. The war, and the love in with the financial services (arguably a legacy from Thatcher!) which bit us in the bum big time. These two are so big, however, its a bit like saying, 'well yes. apart from that Mrs Lincoln, how was the play' to try and take a wider view.

[Mr Mosquito]

Let's mention David Camoron in this debate. I don't remember Maggie Thatcher actually setting out to get rid of benefit payments or reduce benefits payments. Camoron has set the conflict as taxpayers v unemployed and disabled. That's Camoron's strategy and many Thatcherites have fallen for this. We are all in it together according to Camoron....I don't think so......we all have to pay our full tax but Camoron's Tories use tax avoidance schemes and offshore accounts to pay minimum tax or no tax at all.

[cityexile]

 

As for the secret services, there has been and will always be bullshit spouted in sensational books and articles in fact I seem to recall one paper back in the 60's claiming that MI5 were investigating whether Harold Wilson was a Russian mole.

 

As an aside, I am pretty certain that under the 50 year rule, when papers were released, it was indeed confirmed that they had, or at least they were really concerned at the time that he was not 'safe'.!

[Antman]

Let's mention David Camoron in this debate. I don't remember Maggie Thatcher actually setting out to get rid of benefit payments or reduce benefits payments. Camoron has set the conflict as taxpayers v unemployed and disabled. That's Camoron's strategy and many Thatcherites have fallen for this. We are all in it together according to Camoron....I don't think so......we all have to pay our full tax but Camoron's Tories use tax avoidance schemes and offshore accounts to pay minimum tax or no tax at all.

afriad thats not true Gobbers - she worked hard to erode benefits just as our current millionaires are.

the YTS scheme was a direct attack on welfare, a threat to withdraw income support unless taken up. (sound familiar)

Housing benefits were cut

child benefit was frozen

all this while top rate tax for the wealthy was reduc ed from 46 - 40%

she didn't believe in anything other than the grabbing individuals who pretended that she was one of them (the tory blue bloods hated her deeply)

'There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then to look after our neighbour.' (M. Thatcher, October 31, 1987)

[Esmond Million's Bung]

   

As an aside, I am pretty certain that under the 50 year rule, when papers were released, it was indeed confirmed that they had, or at least they were really concerned at the time that he was not 'safe'.!

MI5 admitted keeping files on him from 1945, but deny any bugging etc. I suspect the more likely conclusion is/was the tory press trying to destabilise his government by running these stories and the then Labour publicity machine running equally ludicrous stories of military coups to overthrow his government.

[Mr Mosquito]

she didn't believe in anything other than the grabbing individuals who pretended that she was one of them (the tory blue bloods hated her deeply)

......are you inferring that 'Lady' Margaret Thatcher was a woman without pedigree?

[foghornred]

What a lot of people don't realise is that she was the most POPULAR PM that we have ever had Elected, re-elected and re-elected again and finally not voted out but kicked out by her own party.

I feel that the young have been brainwashed into believing that she was all bad but you would not have a lot of the good things that you have today if it was not for her.

[Mr Mosquito]

What a lot of people don't realise is that she was the most POPULAR PM that we have ever had Elected, re-elected and re-elected again and finally not voted out but kicked out by her own party.

I feel that the young have been brainwashed into believing that she was all bad but you would not have a lot of the good things that you have today if it was not for her.

Likewise, Maggie Thatcher was kicked out by her own political party over 20 years ago and out of those years the Labour Party was in for 13 years, plenty of time to put her wrongs right but they didn't.

[cityexile]

1979 - Cons - 43.1% Labour - 36.9%

1983 - Cons - 42.4% Labour - 27.6%

1987 - Cons - 42.2% Labour - 30.8%

These compare to 43.2% for Blair in 97.

It is not that Thatcher was hugely popular at all. It is that the opposition was terribly split - SDP and all that, with the labour party viewed to be swinging to the left under Foot.

Equally, Heath, '66 - 48.0%,W Heath '70, 46.4% etc etc.

She was kicked out by her party, as frankly they could see she had become unelectable.

No need to believe the rights propoganda either.

[reddevon]

What a lot of people don't realise is that she was the most POPULAR PM that we have ever had Elected, re-elected and re-elected again and finally not voted out but kicked out by her own party.

I feel that the young have been brainwashed into believing that she was all bad but you would not have a lot of the good things that you have today if it was not for her.

Equal with Tony Blair. Not looked it up but I would guess that Labour under Blair received more votes than Thatcher did in her 3 victories.

Don't really want to get into a discussion about good or bad as all will have different views and experiences of her time in power.

As for the greatest ever peacetime Prime Minister tag, I'm not aware of any available league table to support this - guess in my view she is about 5 games away from Division 3!

I still don't understand why she is having this lavish funeral and not a nice quiet family service like my nan had to ensure a dignified affair without unrest.. Not heard much from her kids either - but I suppose she said that about them aswell!

Still if this funeral lark is a new Government initiative, I need to write a letter to my old employer to let them know about an old lady who recently died having worked for 32 years for the same organisation, who whilst well rewarded for her efforts, fell on such hard times during her retirement, that she had to live in a hostel paid for by her friends.and that the Goverment had paid for this big piss-up send off for her!

I would point out that as I worked for the company for 32 years before my retirement, that I will be entitled to the same company funded send off!

I will let you know how I get on.....

[Eco]

What a lot of people don't realise is that she was the most POPULAR PM that we have ever had Elected, re-elected and re-elected again and finally not voted out but kicked out by her own party.

I feel that the young have been brainwashed into believing that she was all bad but you would not have a lot of the good things that you have today if it was not for her.

Such as ?

[cityexile]

This will not mean much to many, but the biggest greatest political tragedy for me in the last 40 years was actually the death of John Smith. Wonders 'what if'...

[redeye]

What like bringing in a minimum wage? That the Tories told us would cost "a million jobs.

And this present Tory government are seeking to repeal the minimum wage.

They have already diminished legal representation for those less well off and eradicated employment rights (many people will have a rude awakening as to how much they need union representation whilst having fallen for Tory brainwashing).

This Tory government will make Thatcher look like Mother Theresa in comparison. The Lib Dems should hang their heads in shame for collaborating in such heinous ideology.

[redeye]

This will not mean much to many, but the biggest greatest political tragedy for me in the last 40 years was actually the death of John Smith.Wonders 'what if'...

This + 1

A travesty for our country.

[TRL]

And this present Tory government are seeking to repeal the minimum wage.

They have already diminished legal representation for those less well off and eradicated employment rights (many people will have a rude awakening as to how much they need union representation whilst having fallen for Tory brainwashing).

This Tory government will make Thatcher look like Mother Theresa in comparison. The Lib Dems should hang their heads in shame for collaborating in such heinous ideology.

I know a lot of public sector depts are removing union reps. Literally walking them off site, and offering them a package to go quietly, alot more than redundancy. Seems at the moment they want union reps (experienced ones) out the door, and are willing to pay even in these austere times.

I know a pcs rep, recently booted out and on garden leave. Says it is happening all over the place now. Be interesting to see how much sway the unions have as their experienced reps start losing their jobs

[redeye]

Why a multi-millionairess needs OUR money for her funeral is beyond me.

Once again the rich cannot extract their snout from the trough.

A politician should serve their country unconditionally - with no pomp or circumstance.

[redeye]

I know a lot of public sector depts are removing union reps. Literally walking them off site, and offering them a package to go quietly, alot more than redundancy. Seems at the moment they

want union reps (experienced ones) out the

door, and are willing to pay even in these

austere times.

I know a pcs rep, recently booted out and on

garden leave. Says it is happening all over the

place now. Be interesting to see how much sway

the unions have as their experienced reps start

losing their jobs

The working man and woman will rue the day they believed the divisive rhetoric of the Tories.

Depressing and sad when you consider the history of personal trials and tribulations that enabled representation.

Wake up Britain - the majority are walking in to marginalisation to facilitate the rich minority.

[marshy]

cannot, cannot agree - her legacy is EXACTLY what is crippling our country -we are now a misguided attempt to become a pale shadow of what was essentially a dictatorship, you mentioned she wasnt a Hussain or a Hitler, no, she was far worse, (they were unapologetic in their 'iron fist' approach - unlike Thatcher who warped our notions of democracy to fullfill her ambitions) a corrosive influence who has polluted the ground for everyone who followed - we have had Blair, and now Cameron preening and pursuing the popularity they mistakenly believed she had enjoyed. List the the events she had a direct hand in - utterly destroying communities in an attempt to break the unions - turning the police into a political tool, a violent interventionist tool - used to crush opposition, privatising everything she could possibly get her claws into - promoting the culture of 'get rich at any means' city boys - pursuing an military, expansionist policy over the Falklands - introducing a swinging, divisive 'Poll Tax' at any means - taking away school milk, for gods sake! - her promotion of News International - support for General Pinochet - anti gay legislation - its a horrific list that has scarred our society and we are still paying the price.

This talk of 'respect' is also muddying the waters, Mark Thomas put it very well in the Independant quoting Tony bloody Blair;

“Even if you disagree with someone very strongly, at the moment of their passing you should show some respect.” Presumably then, when Bin Laden was killed, Blair’s statement was: “Although I didn’t agree with Osama’s policies, he was a conviction terrorist, a colourful character whose short films were not only fun but educational as well. He will be sadly missed.”

I have no problem with the vitriol that has been poured out at her expense - I rail now at the mindless apathy that overwhelms so many people - battered into submission by the attritional, endless spoon feeding of 'we know whats best for you' aproach to goverment.

Class has been dissolved into an inderminate mush of frustration, but strangely, out of it all, the wealthy, the privelidged come out on top every time - our current government - the psuedo Thatchers - are happy to award millionaires and banker incentives to keep on milking the system - while everyone else pays, and how do they get away with it - because they dupe enough of us into believeing that thats our lot - that 'socialism' somehow brings with it something inherently 'un British' something that couldn't possibly be good for us - of course not, because it threatens the well off and wealthy - them.

You surely cannot, suddenley absolve her for the destruction and division she brought because she's dead, The miners who committed suicide because they couldn't feed their families, the soldiers who died pursuing her war, the bill for her deeds is immense - I for one will happily 'tramp the earth down' on her grave.

Maggie, Maggie, Maggie - out, out, OUT!

Never forgive, never forget.

The programme below looks as though it might be an interesting watch, an alternative point of view and an antidote to the Socialist Workers Party perspective set out in the Independent today by Mark Steel which is the article I think you are referring to, not one by Mark Thomas, if it's the link provided earlier in this thread. I don't think a great deal of his politics but he is a half decent comedian. His series of programmes on Radio 4, 'Mark Steel's in Town', have been quite amusing. Unfortunately the establishment of a viable Socialist Workers Paradise has failed everywhere it's been tried. It's an unpalatable truth for many that Capatalism, despite the many obstacles placed in its way, has been the economic system best able to produce a significant improvement to the living standards of people throughout the world.

Margaret - Death of a Revolutionary

Martin Durkin's documentary is to be shown on Channel 4 at 7.00pm on Saturday April 13th. Amid all the anti-Thatcher myths put out by the chatterati, this movie offers a refreshing assessment of how she changed the lives of ordinary people for the better.

"Martin Durkin's controversial thesis is that Margaret Thatcher was a working class revolutionary. She believed that capitalism was in the interests of ordinary people, not the toffs. Many ordinary people agreed. And that is why the left hated her so much - Margaret Thatcher stole the working class."

The documentary features interviews with many of those who knew and worked with Lady Thatcher, including brief contributions from Dr Madsen Pirie, the ASI's President.

[Mr Mosquito]

controversial thesis is that Margaret Thatcher was a working class revolutionary. She believed that capitalism was in the interests of ordinary people, not the toffs. Many ordinary people agreed. And that is why the left hated her so much - Margaret Thatcher stole the working class."

...Maggie Thatcher was of that 60s generation that believed things could get better. As I posted earlier, universal share ownership - that she espoused - was a form of socialism. Universal property ownership, universal share ownership. No wonder working people that had previously had bugger all fell for her dream. It all went tits up when that worker had to sell shares to pay the mortgage to keep the previously state owned house due to ever increasing interest rates.