Mrs Thatcher Dead

[Antman]

Manufacturing output actually increased under Thatcher as it did also under Major. These are undeniable facts even though they may impinge upon people's political prejudice. With regard to the destruction of communities it is difficult to judge at which point the taxpayer should cease to be responsible for propping up inefficient industry. I'm sure my tolerance threshold would be far lower than yours especially as at the time industry was stuffed full of belligerent Union members with a Luddite mentality.

if as a ruling governement you choose to neglect investment into your industries they rapidly become 'ineffecient' add to that a toxic blend of political dogma and stubborness and there you go.

As some one has pointed out (correctly) on here the German employer/union relationship is grounded in a more pragmatic approach - something that Thatcher wouldn't want to happen, as she wanted to be seen to break the NUM.

the manner in which whole communities were left to rot (and lives were lost as a result) was appalling - there must be a degree of responsibility to the society that such industries are rooted in, closing pits and losing jobs is the easy bit,and for sure it makes a balance sheet look better, but the actual cost to the country and to our society was, and continues to be incalculable. Its the lowest common denominator to just slash and burn for economic gain, which Thatcher did and the tories will do now if given the scope.

your 'undeniable facts' betrays your own political prejudice,

[bucksred]

'Serf' is an ancient word defined as a person in a condition of servitude, required to render services to a Lord, commonly attached to the Lord's land and transferred with it from one Lordly owner to another. A modern serf describes most of us with a feudal Lord now being a company owner for instance. When the owner sells the company the employee (serf) then gets a new Lord or 'owner' as is the modern equivalent. Serfdom is thus an ancient term describing the modern predicament of many employees these days. The European Union project endorses the use of serfs in agriculture where a serf from Eastern Europe can now be sent to England for servitude to a Tory landowner via the free movement of labour and capital ideology of the EU.

Gods Teeth do you ever talk some utter piffle Gobbers...under your (failed) dream society we'd all be in union dominated factories producing unfit for purpose product noone would buy, all regulated to **** , no initiatve, no work, mindless one out all out 70's Britain. People were utterly pissed off with living this way. Why the **** would you stop the dead being buried, and rubbish being collected?????

Maggie got DEMOCRATICALLY voted in not once, not twice, but THREE times by the British electorate. The people who voted her in wouldnt have been your toffs n snobs@classwar 1976, but your actual working classes in every area of the country. You n your red buddies cant and wont accept that fact. Not to mention the likes of that piece of shit Scargill taking his NUM to hell, on a political strike to bring down the democratically elected Government of the day. SCARGILL, not Maggie committed his workers to the conflict, knowing Maggie wouldnt back down..not to mention the closure of the pits in short order afterwards. He was alright, he wasnt eating from soup kitchens was he, and hes never ever been on the dole, living on subsistance money

Also the right to work as long a we want to, the banning of closed shops, the banning of compulsory union membership, the right to buy your own council house were all vastly popular. I would never have acheived what I have, nor many of my mates, under the society the likes of you espouse. All of us are ordinary working people, and I was a penniless immigrant when I got here, straight into strikes on trains, councils, and various other places.

Your buddies in the Union movement are dinosaurs, their day has gone, but before they died off, they managed along with utterly inept management, wipe out industry in the UK. To blame Maggie for all the evils of the world, is way too easy and pat for your failed ideology.

As for EU, Serfs etc....noone is stopping you going to work in Germany, Poland, Holland, Denmark, or indeed anywhere in the 27 nation EU, thats your RIGHT.

As for the anti EU Stuff, Maggie was the most anti European politician we've had, certainly much more anti than the Liebour party..

Best Banner I saw in the 80's, was on the Canberra returning from the Falklands, read: "Call off your rail strike, or we'll call in an air strike!"...

[Antman]

I think if you dig deep enough plenty of incentives were in place during the 80's to encourage entrepreneurship. And lets face it we live in a free market economy not a 'planned' one as would have been required to do what you are advocating which, history tells us, has generally been an abject failure.

Lots of successful businesses started in the 1980's. Mine was one of them and I thank the incumbent Gov't of the day for making that a little more easier because the word 'a little' is all a gov't can do; it can nudge, cajole, encourage and lay the ground work but if the populace do not take that encouragement and prefer to whinge about cut backs in benefit or the lack of run of the mill jobs that all need to be carried out you need to go back to the end of second world war for where the problems really and truly began. The years from 1945 through 1979 were merely papering over the cracks and hoping for a better day. It was not until one person said we need to tackle overmanning, we need to tackle inefficient and massively loss making industries and actually do something about it that we avoided the precipice. For many it was hard, very hard but the alternative was certain bankruptcy and another IMF bailout.

when the workers have little or no control over management of large industries - bad practice can easily creep in becasue no-one gives a shit. you can see stupid decisions being made over your head, and quickly question why you're bothering - if the government had empowered the workforce a little more and perhaps engaged with them rather than set out on a confrontational route we mikght have had a different outcome - it's not one thing nor another, but a carefully managed blend of the two - Thatcher was all about dogma and power - she used the police as a political battering ram.

Our economy is now based on very shallow roots - as large scale manufacturing has all but gone - the consequent unease and sense of insecurity felt by most people nowadays is as a direct result.

I run my own company, set up in the early 80's - we set up as a co-operative, and still run quite succesfully 28 years later.

If Thatcher had been such a gifted leader, she might have taken the failings of previous governments and actually attempted to build a more balanced society - she didn't - she ripped it up, denounced 'society' and opened the doors on a '**** you, i'll help myself' mentality that pervades most parts of modern life.

[havanatopia]

Its the lowest common denominator to just slash and burn for economic gain, which Thatcher did and the tories will do now if given the scope.

The Gov't of the day, whoever it may be, is not a 'business' as you portray. Rather their task is to ensure there is sufficient money coming into the Gov't bank accounts to ensure what goes out can be paid for. Only a business, crucially, wants to maximise its profits potentially at the expense of peoples' livelihoods. You suggest the mere existence of the Conservatives is to, at all costs, behave like such a ruthless business. That is a quite ridiculous statement. No Gov't would be re-elected under such a premise.

A Gov't of the day wants to maximise people's incomes and make people happy, its a simple truth because people go into public office to serve the people. The difference between the right and the left is how to get there; Labour usually enters office inheriting a nice tidy surplus and is able to promise a spend fest hence how they get elected in the first place. The Conservatives get kicked out in the process because people think the house is in order now and let someone else have a go forgetting that it was a bit of a mess 15 odd years ago when they came in. Then, when the larder is empty people suddenly realise they had better get some hard noses back in to clear up the mess and so the cycle starts afresh. Go back 100 years and it is thus. I doubt it will ever change.

[havanatopia]

when the workers have little or no control over management of large industries - bad practice can easily creep in becasue no-one gives a shit. you can see stupid decisions being made over your head, and quickly question why you're bothering - if the government had empowered the workforce a little more and perhaps engaged with them rather than set out on a confrontational route we mikght have had a different outcome - it's not one thing nor another, but a carefully managed blend of the two - Thatcher was all about dogma and power - she used the police as a political battering ram.

Our economy is now based on very shallow roots - as large scale manufacturing has all but gone - the consequent unease and sense of insecurity felt by most people nowadays is as a direct result.

I run my own company, set up in the early 80's - we set up as a co-operative, and still run quite succesfully 28 years later.

If Thatcher had been such a gifted leader, she might have taken the failings of previous governments and actually attempted to build a more balanced society - she didn't - she ripped it up, denounced 'society' and opened the doors on a '**** you, i'll help myself' mentality that pervades most parts of modern life.

Not even in Cuba do the workers have 'control' over management.. god forbid.. what you are advocating sounds like its come straight out of the Marx bible. Good luck with that squire. On the other hand a cooperative can, on occasion, work well. Every model has its place but not just one. Clearly a centrally planned economy is resigned to the garbage truck of history unless you happen to run a bank in Harare or Havana.

[Antman]

Not even in Cuba do the workers have 'control' over management.. god forbid.. what you are advocating sounds like its come straight out of the Marx bible. Good luck with that squire. On the other hand a cooperative can, on occasion, work well. Every model has its place but not just one. Clearly a centrally planned economy is resigned to the garbage truck of history unless you happen to run a bank in Harare or Havana.

of course i'm not advocating 'control over management' - rather a more balanced take that empowers workers enough to take responsibility and feel like their efforts are worthwhile - sure thats a 'cats and dogs living together' scenario, but we can dream!

i've done enough shitty jobs to see first hand how NOT to treat employees.

[Mr Mosquito]

Gods Teeth do you ever talk some utter piffle Gobbers...under your (failed) dream society we'd all be in union dominated factories producing unfit for purpose product noone would buy, all regulated to **** , no initiatve, no work, mindless one out all out 70's Britain. People were utterly pissed off with living this way. Why the **** would you stop the dead being buried, and rubbish being collected?????

Maggie got DEMOCRATICALLY voted in not once, not twice, but THREE times by the British electorate. The people who voted her in wouldnt have been your toffs n snobs@classwar 1976, but your actual working classes in every area of the country. You n your red buddies cant and wont accept that fact. Not to mention the likes of that piece of shit Scargill taking his NUM to hell, on a political strike to bring down the democratically elected Government of the day. SCARGILL, not Maggie committed his workers to the conflict, knowing Maggie wouldnt back down..not to mention the closure of the pits in short order afterwards. He was alright, he wasnt eating from soup kitchens was he, and hes never ever been on the dole, living on subsistance money

Also the right to work as long a we want to, the banning of closed shops, the banning of compulsory union membership, the right to buy your own council house were all vastly popular. I would never have acheived what I have, nor many of my mates, under the society the likes of you espouse. All of us are ordinary working people, and I was a penniless immigrant when I got here, straight into strikes on trains, councils, and various other places.

Your buddies in the Union movement are dinosaurs, their day has gone, but before they died off, they managed along with utterly inept management, wipe out industry in the UK. To blame Maggie for all the evils of the world, is way too easy and pat for your failed ideology.

As for EU, Serfs etc....noone is stopping you going to work in Germany, Poland, Holland, Denmark, or indeed anywhere in the 27 nation EU, thats your RIGHT.

As for the anti EU Stuff, Maggie was the most anti European politician we've had, certainly much more anti than the Liebour party..

Best Banner I saw in the 80's, was on the Canberra returning from the Falklands, read: "Call off your rail strike, or we'll call in an air strike!"...

I feel honoured that you've written such a long reply for my considered perusal.

I wont reply to every point you've made because if you read all my replies so far on this thread I've actually already answered your points of view with my own opinions. Except, with regard to Maggie Thatcher's increasingly anti EU stance toward the end of her time as Prime Minister. The real underlying reason - in my considered opinion - that the Tories ousted (back stabbed) Margaret Thatcher as Prime Minister was that she was becoming too anti EEC or EC or whatever the EU was at that time. Remember, when John Major signed the Maastricht Treaty in 1992 a massive amount of Tories left the party - including Nigel Farage. The likes of Nigel Farage have really come back to haunt the EU loving Tories left in the Conservative Party via their increasingly popular UKIP political party.

Even though it would seem that the Tories wanted Maggie Thatcher out due to her unwavering support of the Poll Tax, I still think the Tories are so wedded to the idea of EU membership that they'd never tolerate any leader - even Margaret Thatcher - that would take us out of the EU. I reckon that the Tories will never again be able to form a Government with a decent majority due to their support for EU membership just like the Unions will never again be able to hold any Government to ransome. Maggie Thatcher saw the light and the real nature of the EU project with its wasteful, unaccountable and unelected despots - an EUSSR - seems that the rest of her Tory Party didn't.

[reddevon]

Perhaps the families of the dead might have a view?.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/04/201341211353718947.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57575040/bombings-in-iraq-kill-65-a-decade-after-u.s-invasion/

They are probably wondering why their own countrymen are killing each other, and hoping that their newly found democracy will prevail in the end.

[Mr Mosquito]

of course i'm not advocating 'control over management' - rather a more balanced take that empowers workers enough to take responsibility and feel like their efforts are worthwhile - sure thats a 'cats and dogs living together' scenario, but we can dream!

i've done enough shitty jobs to see first hand how NOT to treat employees.

Persoanally, I've done enough shitty jobs over the past 32 years to really relish any kind of win on the lottery to be released from the shitty work-wages cycle and retire early. If jobs were worth having the rich would have bagged them all for themselves years ago.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

They are probably wondering why their own countrymen are killing each other, and hoping that their newly found democracy will prevail in the end.

No, they are probably wondering why us and the Americans pulled out and left them to their own devices for the inevitable sectarian/religious hatred to rise again + the obvious infiltration by murderous militias.

[reddevon]

I think if you dig deep enough plenty of incentives were in place during the 80's to encourage entrepreneurship. And lets face it we live in a free market economy not a 'planned' one as would have been required to do what you are advocating which, history tells us, has generally been an abject failure.

Lots of successful businesses started in the 1980's. Mine was one of them and I thank the incumbent Gov't of the day for making that a little more easier because the word 'a little' is all a gov't can do; it can nudge, cajole, encourage and lay the ground work but if the populace do not take that encouragement and prefer to whinge about cut backs in benefit or the lack of run of the mill jobs that all need to be carried out you need to go back to the end of second world war for where the problems really and truly began. The years from 1945 through 1979 were merely papering over the cracks and hoping for a better day. It was not until one person said we need to tackle overmanning, we need to tackle inefficient and massively loss making industries and actually do something about it that we avoided the precipice. For many it was hard, very hard but the alternative was certain bankruptcy and another IMF bailout.

I am pleased that your business was a success, and I hope you had the opportunity to recruit and retrain a number of shipbuilders, steel workers and miners in your early years.

My point is that, having made the decision to close these industries she should have had a robust plan to negate the obvious consequences of those actions, not just for the current time but also the generations that would follow in those industries. She got it badly wrong.

I feel my self very lucky to have grown up and lived in an area of sustained prosperity and general full employment.

How many on here would be able to say the same had Heath not nationalized Rolls Royce in the early seventies?

They were loss making, over manned, strong union representation (workers sleeping on night shifts etc.)

I still cannot find one action that she did to deserve these blind accolades and semi-state funeral at our expense.

She may have been the first female PM, , (could well be because of the general lack of talent or leadership qualities in the Conservative Males at that time) but did little to enhance womens rights and prospects.

Probably summed up in her speach - "THE lady's not for turning" not THIS lady.....

[reddevon]

No, they are probably wondering why us and the Americans pulled out and left them to their own devices for the inevitable sectarian/religious hatred to rise again + the obvious infiltration by murderous militias.

So its the pulling out you/they have issue with (so do I), AND NOT THE GOING IN

[Esmond Million's Bung]

So its the pulling out you/they have issue with (so do I), AND NOT THE GOING IN

Now I think you are being rather silly.

[marshy]

if as a ruling governement you choose to neglect investment into your industries they rapidly become 'ineffecient' add to that a toxic blend of political dogma and stubborness and there you go.

As some one has pointed out (correctly) on here the German employer/union relationship is grounded in a more pragmatic approach - something that Thatcher wouldn't want to happen, as she wanted to be seen to break the NUM.

the manner in which whole communities were left to rot (and lives were lost as a result) was appalling - there must be a degree of responsibility to the society that such industries are rooted in, closing pits and losing jobs is the easy bit,and for sure it makes a balance sheet look better, but the actual cost to the country and to our society was, and continues to be incalculable. Its the lowest common denominator to just slash and burn for economic gain, which Thatcher did and the tories will do now if given the scope.

your 'undeniable facts' betrays your own political prejudice,

That was me I think, ironically the poster to whom you were replying. Here's the link again to an interesting article,

http://thespellmanreport.com/2012/03/30/the-supply-side/

When you talk of 'a toxic blend of political dogma and stubborness' I assume you are talking about the Unions at that time who were doing all they could to bring the country to its knees and acting as I said with a Ludddite mentality.

With regard to political prejudice I fail to see how my presenting the facts ''betrays'' this. I'm certainly not a Tory but, on the other hand, have a terror of hard left policies and anything resembling a state planned economy which has been proven time and time again not to work and frequently to fail with terrifying consequences.

[Mr Mosquito]

That was me I think, ironically the poster to whom you were replying. Here's the link again to an interesting article,

http://thespellmanreport.com/2012/03/30/the-supply-side/

When you talk of 'a toxic blend of political dogma and stubborness' I assume you are talking about the Unions at that time who were doing all they could to bring the country to its knees and acting as I said with a Ludddite mentality.

With regard to political prejudice I fail to see how my presenting the facts ''betrays'' this. I'm certainly not a Tory but, on the other hand, have a terror of hard left policies and anything resembling a state planned economy which has been proven time and time again not to work and frequently to fail with terrifying consequences.

We had a state planned economy during World War 2 - as did the Russians and Americans - and it succeeded spectacularly given the grim circumstances.

[Antman]

That was me I think, ironically the poster to whom you were replying. Here's the link again to an interesting article,

http://thespellmanreport.com/2012/03/30/the-supply-side/

When you talk of 'a toxic blend of political dogma and stubborness' I assume you are talking about the Unions at that time who were doing all they could to bring the country to its knees and acting as I said with a Ludddite mentality.

With regard to political prejudice I fail to see how my presenting the facts ''betrays'' this. I'm certainly not a Tory but, on the other hand, have a terror of hard left policies and anything resembling a state planned economy which has been proven time and time again not to work and frequently to fail with terrifying consequences.

you want to lay it all at the unions feet then? - my reference was clearly about Thatcher and her cronies, and whilst I don't condone the more radical aspects of unionism, i fully support the rights of workers to organise and protest when appropriate - under the tories and the 'new labour' tories unionism has been marginalised to the point where many workers don't realise what rights they actually have, and consequently are taken to the cleaners.protests are contained and strike ballots have to be agreed in advance, etc etc - all of which effectively neuters the unions.

I don't deny the unions themselves were not quick enough to identify the oncoming storm and only served to fuel the fire.

i rue the day that Thatcher came to power and as I said, the subsequent path towards rampant capitalism which has so eroded and warped our society.

my reference to 'political prejudice' was only to highlight how you seemingly dismissed others opinions and placed your own, equally 'prejudiced' views, front and forward as somehow being better.

finally i want to flag that i fully respect your opinions, and that I genuinely appreciate the fact we can argue the toss on here - lets hope that continues.

[Mr Mosquito]

you want to lay it all at the unions feet then? - my reference was clearly about Thatcher and her cronies, and whilst I don't condone the more radical aspects of unionism, i fully support the rights of workers to organise and protest when appropriate - under the tories and the 'new labour' tories unionism has been marginalised to the point where many workers don't realise what rights they actually have, and consequently are taken to the cleaners.protests are contained and strike ballots have to be agreed in advance, etc etc - all of which effectively neuters the unions.

I don't deny the unions themselves were not quick enough to identify the oncoming storm and only served to fuel the fire.

i rue the day that Thatcher came to power and as I said, the subsequent path towards rampant capitalism which has so eroded and warped our society.

my reference to 'political prejudice' was only to highlight how you seemingly dismissed others opinions and placed your own, equally 'prejudiced' views, front and forward as somehow being better.

finally i want to flag that i fully respect your opinions, and that I genuinely appreciate the fact we can argue the toss on here - lets hope that continues.

I was but a young teenager in the late 70s and Bristol seemed to be a far pleasanter and relaxing place to live than it is now. That was under a true Labour government and powerful Trades Unions etc. Maggie Thatcher's regime came along and created rampant house price inflation and very high youth unemployment rates in Bristol. A greed culture was most definitely endorsed by Thatcher. Thatcher had her good points but I remember mostly problems caused by her and Bristol as a city most definitely declined during her tenure.

[marshy]

We had a state planned economy during World War 2 - as did the Russians and Americans - and it succeeded spectacularly given the grim circumstances.

Defence of the Realm is surely the primary purpose of the state. That is a totally different kettle of fish to wealth creation.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

I was but a young teenager in the late 70s and Bristol seemed to be a far pleasanter and relaxing place to live than it is now. That was under a true Labour government and powerful Trades Unions etc. Maggie Thatcher's regime came along and created rampant house price inflation and very high youth unemployment rates in Bristol. A greed culture was most definitely endorsed by Thatcher. Thatcher had her good points but I remember mostly problems caused by her and Bristol as a city most definitely declined during her tenure.

All very true but you sort of conveniently forget the decade or more that had gone before, where the unions were running the country and promoting it's own greed culture, taking on democratically elected governments at every opportunity and the miners union being used the it's military wing, the electorate in general were pissed right off.

[Mr Mosquito]

All very true but you sort of conveniently forget the decade or more that had gone before, where the unions were running the country and promoting it's own greed culture, taking on democratically elected governments at every opportunity and the miners union being used the it's military wing, the electorate in general were pissed right off.

In the early 70s, I remember being on the top deck of a bus on a cold dark winter evening with our Mother. I could see sets of street lights being switched off all over Bristol and I was mesmerized with excitement. No fun when we got home because we had no heat or electric light and were using cradles for light. Our neighbour lost most of his expensive tropical fish due to there being no electricity to heat his fish tank. I can well understand why people were so pissed off with the Unions and Edward Heath's government for causing such problems.

[Mr Mosquito]

Defence of the Realm is surely the primary purpose of the state. That is a totally different kettle of fish to wealth creation.

The Americans managed to create wealth from World War 2 but that's a different topic debate to Thatcher.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

In the early 70s, I remember being on the top deck of a bus on a cold dark winter evening with our Mother. I could see sets of street lights being switched off all over Bristol and I was mesmerized with excitement. No fun when we got home because we had no heat or electric light and were using cradles for light. Our neighbour lost most of his expensive tropical fish due to there being no electricity to heat his fish tank. I can well understand why people were so pissed off with the Unions and Edward Heath's government for causing such problems.

Very selective once more, not forgetting of course Harold Wilson 3 times and Slim Jim once, the unions chanced their arm throughout much of that period because of the small majorities or minority governments whatever the political persuasion of the ruling party.

My missus had too on more than one occasion walk home from Will's in Ashton to Withywood in the dark on winters nights because there were no buses and the electricity had been cut off and she certainly never forgot, it frightened the shit out of her.

[Mr Mosquito]

Very selective once more, not forgetting of course Harold Wilson 3 times and Slim Jim once, the unions chanced their arm throughout much of that period because of the small majorities or minority governments whatever the political persuasion of the ruling party.

My missus had too on more than one occasion walk home from Will's in Ashton to Withywood in the dark on winters nights because there were no buses and the electricity had been cut off and she certainly never forgot, it frightened the shit out of her.

A fair old trek from Ashton to Withywood after a day's work. No tobacco packaging in Bristol now as that industry has been snatched from Bristol and relocated to Belgium.

[reddevon]

Now I think you are being rather silly.

Not really, opinion polls in Iraq, when conducted in 2005 were well in favour of the US/UK intervention to remove Saddam , but at the same time they wanted foreign troops to withdraw asap.

[reddevon]

All very true but you sort of conveniently forget the decade or more that had gone before, where the unions were running the country and promoting it's own greed culture, taking on democratically elected governments at every opportunity and the miners union being used the it's military wing, the electorate in general were pissed right off.

Sorry Esmond but you appear to be painting a picture that the country was in the dark economic ages before our saviour Thatcher came along.and bashed the Unions!

My experience was far from this!

I had a great state school education in Bristol until the early 70's and then joined a North American company . (who had moved out of London to Bristol as many others followed,due to increasing costs), and settled in Bristol offering good salaries, company mortgages , free healthcare and a non - contributary 25 year final salary pension, long before Thatcher came to power..

From my view things were not as dark in the 70's, (in Bristol nor Britain) as you paint and I spent 30 odd years working and living in Stokes Croft/City Road!

The problems came after she was elected.

She wasn't that good to make a fuss over with a grand state funded funeral.

[havanatopia]

I am pleased that your business was a success, and I hope you had the opportunity to recruit and retrain a number of shipbuilders, steel workers and miners in your early years.

My point is that, having made the decision to close these industries she should have had a robust plan to negate the obvious consequences of those actions, not just for the current time but also the generations that would follow in those industries. She got it badly wrong.

I have a small business with only 10 employees and lots of sub-contractors. I pay UK taxes but most of the growth of the business is offshore and that means employees too; its all about competing and there can be no sentiment when the buck stops with me. As for Maggs closing businesses; I think you will find that that is not accurate. The industries were sold off or privatised and allowed to rise or fall on their own two feet; that is what free market economics is all about and is the way the world has gone for better or for worse; until a better system comes along there ain't much else. Plenty of those industries that did not survive were in areas that were re-generated but you cannot make up jobs unless you call retail and warehouse parks meaningfull careers; for sure they are for many and we should applaud that even if its very sad to see industry go but that is inevitable when a lack of investment since 1945 had brought many to their knees, being continually propped up by successive govt's of both sides until the time came when even the most ignorant punter realised that, by and large, a van made in birmingham was not as good as one made in Stuttgart or a car in Speke fell apart far more quickly than one from Okinawa. No politician could have saved our inexorable decline in manufacturing but what Maggs did do was begin the painful process of transition which is still going on to this day and laid the foundations for a low taxation country to encourage overseas businesses to come and set up here. That said there is still a lot of British owned industry here that is thriving, expanding and innovative. Utopia, however, exists only in an imaginary mind.

I feel my self very lucky to have grown up and lived in an area of sustained prosperity and general full employment.

How many on here would be able to say the same had Heath not nationalized Rolls Royce in the early seventies?

They were loss making, over manned, strong union representation (workers sleeping on night shifts etc.)

I still cannot find one action that she did to deserve these blind accolades and semi-state funeral at our expense.

She may have been the first female PM, , (could well be because of the general lack of talent or leadership qualities in the Conservative Males at that time) but did little to enhance womens rights and prospects.

Probably summed up in her speach - "THE lady's not for turning" not THIS lady.....

And in summary, I dread to think what another 5 years of Callaghan would have done or a couple with that tosspot Kinnock who was quite happy to get rich on the bloated largesse of Europe when he realised he was not coherent or smart enough to make it in UK politics. Perhaps you would have preferred Michael Foot.

[marshy]

The Americans managed to create wealth from World War 2 but that's a different topic debate to Thatcher.

Makes you wonder why they didn't carry on down the state planned route once the war was over.

[marshy]

Margaret - Death of a Revolutionary

Martin Durkin's documentary is to be shown on Channel 4 at 7.00pm on Saturday April 13th. Amid all the anti-Thatcher myths put out by the chatterati, this movie offers a refreshing assessment of how she changed the lives of ordinary people for the better.

"Martin Durkin's controversial thesis is that Margaret Thatcher was a working class revolutionary. She believed that capitalism was in the interests of ordinary people, not the toffs. Many ordinary people agreed. And that is why the left hated her so much - Margaret Thatcher stole the working class."

The documentary features interviews with many of those who knew and worked with Lady Thatcher, including brief contributions from Dr Madsen Pirie, the ASI's President.

Did anyone else manage to watch this 90 minute programme on Thatcher last night? Well worth catching up with if you missed it. Unfortunately it clashed with the start of 'Britain's Got Talent' so I would guess it didn't get a huge audience. Highlights for me were reminders about the way in which she took on the 'toff' element within the Tory party(the ones who felt they were born to rule) and, with popular support, drove a wedge between them and the militant left. And all with the huge disadvantage at the time of being a woman. The other thing which had slipped to the back of my mind was just how many industries were state run when she came to power.

There is also a cringeworthy interview with Kinnock. Apparently if he had won the election Labour had in place their own 'Right to Buy' scheme because as he said, 'I owed it to my mother and father'. Now my memory may be a little hazy but I can't remember that ever being in a Labour party manifesto. Please correct me if I'm wrong on that.

[Mr Mosquito]

Makes you wonder why they didn't carry on down the state planned route once the war was over.

In some ways the Americans did especially with their state planned military machine and it's support industries. The only big non military state run industry in the U.S. I can think of is their 'railroads'.

Anyway, back to Maggie Thatcher, I believe that her funeral should be privatized and not state funded.

[TRL]

In some ways the Americans did especially with their state planned military machine and it's support industries. The only big non military state run industry in the U.S. I can think of is their 'railroads'.

Anyway, back to Maggie Thatcher, I believe that her funeral should be privatized and not state funded.

To be fair, I don't think it should come out of tax payers money. Clearly she upset enough people, and for them to contribute to a big send of would be a a final 2 fingers up from Maggie at them.

Maybe they should be selling Maggie image rights or something to pay for it? Charge spitting image a shite load of back pay for the image rights, that should do it!