Mrs Thatcher Dead

[chipdawg]

Well firstly I personally don't believe that it's the Govenment's job to modernise industry. That's best left to industrialists rather than Government employees who generally don't have a clue. Secondly any attempt at change was met with resistance by the Unions who were only interested in the short-term benefits they could screw from their employers. Now if they could have behaved with a more mature attitude and taken a long-term view as to supply side reform, as did the Unions in Germany for instance, then perhaps we might have had a stronger industrial base today. As it is our economy isn't in quite the mess you portray as we seem able to absorb vast numbers of workers from abroad who find working here a far better option than staying at home.

As I just said, the unions also have their cross to bear in all this. I'm not suggesting that governments should be involved in modernisation directly, though in this case the government owned the pits and many of the factories- 'we' were the industrialists. Germany is a great example of both sides realising the necessity of modernisation. If a serious olive branch or plan for the future had ever been extended to the unions then the criticism would be there's alone, but her ambition was not to build a balanced economy in the UK, it was simply to enforce her political will on those most oppose to it

Even if we move on from the idea that she had a choice in the way she dealt with unionised workers, where was the government facilitation of new industry in these towns and villages? They were hung out to dry- punished by their own government. Grimethorpe in South Yorkshire was rated the 3rd poorest settlement in the whole of Europe in 1994, a year after the pit finally closed (it had been wound down since 1985 despite having significant coal reserves). Did the government improve infrastructure or incentivise businesses to utilise the workforce there? No, they moved most of the miners onto invalidity benefit to make it look like unemployment wasn't that bad, so creating the benefit dependency we see in many of these towns today

[Davros]

My son lives on Chelsea road and was battoned by the police for trying to return to his house. As for the demonstration it was all peaceful until Police in full riot gear appeared, nothing sinister or dangerous, just a few people exercising there right to celebrate the demise of a truly wicked person.

Burning stuff in the street is not generally considered peaceful or acceptable.

[lifelong]

Burning stuff in the street is not generally considered peaceful or acceptable.

As i said my son lives there. so saw it first hand. There were no problems prior to police intervention whose first action was to appear from every street in full riot gear. Is that managing the situation or merely spoiling for a fight?

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Just before the Falklands war, she had the lowest popularity ratings of any prime minister EVER. Amazing what fighting a successful war can do for your poll ratings.

Such a criminal shame Blair had to copy her, but it didn't work for him.

Big Big difference, in one case an enemy invaded British sovereign territory = legal war.

Blair goes to war on lies that he knew were lies and allowed Britain to be in league with the USA in kidnapping and torture = Totally illegal war + 1 war criminal, that's socialism for you.

Socialism and the redistribution of wealth is still with us.

The Chinese are beating the capitalists at their own game and are the money lender to the US. Not just a few millions but trillions.

Whilst Thatcher was de-industrialising the UK in the name of capitalism, other nations moved on leaps and bounds producing everything from paper clips to bullet trains.

Socialists are builders of countries and not wreckers of countries like Thatcher.

Yep Blair was the master of re- distribution of wealth, he and his cronies filled their bank accounts to the brim with their personal re-distribution, whilst allowing the gap between rich and poor to widen.

[marshy]

I was living in Newcastle during the miner strike and she won't have many friends up there. Paolo Di Canio will be off the hook for a little while at least in Sunderland.

I stand by my last statement (now deleted). It's how I feel about the woman. You can choose to be offended by that if you wish, but what gives you the right to tell me how I should feel? You gonna tell me what to think next to? Its just opinion and mine is no more or less valid than anyone else's. Get over it.

Greetings RAF. I'm not offended and am over 'it', whatever that 'it' is, already. It's a pity for your peace of mind that you seem to feel so much anger so many years after the event. I am certainly not going to attempt to tell you what to think. The phrase 'banging one's head against a brick wall' comes to mind.

[Fiale]

Friend was saying she was no great loss and how he hated her, asked him how things are going... still thinking about selling his house and downsizing to free up some money and use as a pension pot. Said your lucky that you bought your council house back in the 80's for £7,000, couldn't do that nowadays with the sort of deposits/mortgages available, said didn't you sale if and make a large profit ? "yeah" Then you used it to buy that larger place in Southville ? "Yeah" that you sold near the height of the housing bubble, as well as Southville becoming a desirable place to live.... "Yeah" made a lot of money didn't you, able to buy your current place mortgage free, money in the bank, and a pension pot to boot - just think, if Maggie hadn't let you buy your council house you'd never had all this money, saving on rent, pension pot or owned your own place on the money you earn..... seems you had a pretty comfortable life due to just one of her policies......... "yeah, still hate her" ............ *sigh

[pongo88]

So what is good?

destroying trad unions and getting rid of the minimum wadge?

Being able to buy your council house and then not any more being built so a shortage of housing?

Going to war for oil?

TREATING FOOTBALL FANS LIKE ANIMALS?

Cutting mines?

Tuned the gas ,electric and water more expensive?

This is a classic example of the old newspaper adage of “never let the truth get in the way of a good story”.

Margaret Thatcher had a lot of faults and I didn’t agree with many of her policies including selling council houses and not building replacements. She also allowed large sections of manufacturing to fall by the wayside. I’ve voted Labour much more often than conservative but to blame her for everything is a bit like the threads we use to have that blamed Lee Johnson for everything.

Margaret Thatcher did not destroy the unions. She destroyed the power of the communist leaders who believed that part of their remit was to run the country. Back in the 70s union leaders were regularly invited to no. 10 Downing Street when Labour was in power for “beer and sandwiches” to discuss policy! Arthur Scargill took the miners out on strike without a national vote which was against union policy. A lot of mines closed because the government switched from coal to gas for electricity generation because there was no continuity of supply with coal (due to miners strikes). Without Arthur Scargill and with a guarantee of regular coal supply things would have been very different.

An example of the awful state of the unions in the 1970s is Red Robbo (no not that one) a union leader at British Leyland. The link below to the article about BL gives a good summary – e.g.

“The BBC had once claimed that between 1978 and 1979 Robinson was credited with causing 523 walkouts at British Leyland, costing an estimated £200 million in lost production.”

As for treating football fans like animals, the problem with hooliganism started in the early 70’s, years before she was elected.

Gas, electricity and water prices have increased, but part of this is due to inflation. If you look at the second link you can do he calculations – i.e.

£1000 in 1986 (gas privatisation) is equal t £2550 in today’s money

£1000 in 1989 (electricity privatisation) is equal t £2260 in today’s money.

Inflation does not cover the total increases but today’s prices are affected by world prices and declining north sea production

It’s amazing how people make sweeping statements about the past without any knowledge of what actually happened. Perhaps that’s one of Thatcher’s failings – far too many people leave school without and real knowledge of history.

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/margaret-thatcher-battles-british-leyland-2572433

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-1633409/Historic-inflation-calculator-value-money-changed-1900.html

[chipdawg]

One further point; while there was no national ballot for the miners strike, the NUM at the time was divided into regional sections and all but 2 of these (Nottinghamshire who were facing no pit closures at that time and northwest who only narrowly voted against- can't remember the official names of the regions though) voted to strike. Given the balance of members (overwhelmingly in Yorkshire, North East & Wales at that time) a national ballot would without doubt have led to a strike. I'm pretty sure that there was no legislation that demanded the NUM have a national ballot as well before calling the strike so they did nothing wrong and it's difficult to argue they were not acting with their members wishes

I'm not defending the NUM btw; they have as big a share of the blame in what happened before, during and after that strike as Thatcher's government did

[Barrs Court Red]

This is a classic example of the old newspaper adage of “never let the truth get in the way of a good story”.

Margaret Thatcher had a lot of faults and I didn’t agree with many of her policies including selling council houses and not building replacements. She also allowed large sections of manufacturing to fall by the wayside. I’ve voted Labour much more often than conservative but to blame her for everything is a bit like the threads we use to have that blamed Lee Johnson for everything.

Margaret Thatcher did not destroy the unions. She destroyed the power of the communist leaders who believed that part of their remit was to run the country. Back in the 70s union leaders were regularly invited to no. 10 Downing Street when Labour was in power for “beer and sandwiches” to discuss policy! Arthur Scargill took the miners out on strike without a national vote which was against union policy. A lot of mines closed because the government switched from coal to gas for electricity generation because there was no continuity of supply with coal (due to miners strikes). Without Arthur Scargill and with a guarantee of regular coal supply things would have been very different.

An example of the awful state of the unions in the 1970s is Red Robbo (no not that one) a union leader at British Leyland. The link below to the article about BL gives a good summary – e.g.

“The BBC had once claimed that between 1978 and 1979 Robinson was credited with causing 523 walkouts at British Leyland, costing an estimated £200 million in lost production.”

As for treating football fans like animals, the problem with hooliganism started in the early 70’s, years before she was elected.

Gas, electricity and water prices have increased, but part of this is due to inflation. If you look at the second link you can do he calculations – i.e.

£1000 in 1986 (gas privatisation) is equal t £2550 in today’s money

£1000 in 1989 (electricity privatisation) is equal t £2260 in today’s money.

Inflation does not cover the total increases but today’s prices are affected by world prices and declining north sea production

It’s amazing how people make sweeping statements about the past without any knowledge of what actually happened. Perhaps that’s one of Thatcher’s failings – far too many people leave school without and real knowledge of history.

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/margaret-thatcher-battles-british-leyland-2572433

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-1633409/Historic-inflation-calculator-value-money-changed-1900.html

Thanks for that. It will be interesting to see certain people here argue against it.

[cityexile]

The fact that we have a lower unemployment rate than most of Europe, have compared to many of them more flexible working regulations, and never really got within a million miles of joining the Euro were in many ways due to the Thatcher legacy.

Equally, spawned a cult of get rich merchants and greed, moving us from manufacturing to a great love in with deregulated financial markets and credit, the loadsofmoney culture, that in my mind created the seeds for the current huge recession and collapse of the financial sector. Moved us from a European social democrat model to more a US everybody for themselves model.

Many of the traits of a good war time leader, who to often defined the enemy as part of those she was elected to rule. Led the most divisive government in my memory. I see no reason to grant her sainthood because she has passed from this world to the next one.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Just seen the video of the wonderful next generation attacking the police in Bristol, virtually all of whom were not even born when Thatcher was in power, what are they protesting about FFS?, most of them have never had a job, never want a job or have any intention of getting a ******* job, as long as the state carries on sponsoring their alcohol, drugs, cigarettes, food and other necessities of life such as tattoos and piercings. The great unwashed FFS, Britain is really in safe hands, for those opposed to immigration, let's sort out our own house first.

[JOSH17]

This is a classic example of the old newspaper adage of “never let the truth get in the way of a good story”.

Margaret Thatcher had a lot of faults and I didn’t agree with many of her policies including selling council houses and not building replacements. She also allowed large sections of manufacturing to fall by the wayside. I’ve voted Labour much more often than conservative but to blame her for everything is a bit like the threads we use to have that blamed Lee Johnson for everything.

Margaret Thatcher did not destroy the unions. She destroyed the power of the communist leaders who believed that part of their remit was to run the country. Back in the 70s union leaders were regularly invited to no. 10 Downing Street when Labour was in power for “beer and sandwiches” to discuss policy! Arthur Scargill took the miners out on strike without a national vote which was against union policy. A lot of mines closed because the government switched from coal to gas for electricity generation because there was no continuity of supply with coal (due to miners strikes). Without Arthur Scargill and with a guarantee of regular coal supply things would have been very different.

An example of the awful state of the unions in the 1970s is Red Robbo (no not that one) a union leader at British Leyland. The link below to the article about BL gives a good summary – e.g.

“The BBC had once claimed that between 1978 and 1979 Robinson was credited with causing 523 walkouts at British Leyland, costing an estimated £200 million in lost production.”

As for treating football fans like animals, the problem with hooliganism started in the early 70’s, years before she was elected.

Gas, electricity and water prices have increased, but part of this is due to inflation. If you look at the second link you can do he calculations – i.e.

£1000 in 1986 (gas privatisation) is equal t £2550 in today’s money

£1000 in 1989 (electricity privatisation) is equal t £2260 in today’s money.

Inflation does not cover the total increases but today’s prices are affected by world prices and declining north sea production

It’s amazing how people make sweeping statements about the past without any knowledge of what actually happened. Perhaps that’s one of Thatcher’s failings – far too many people leave school without and real knowledge of history.

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/margaret-thatcher-battles-british-leyland-2572433

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-1633409/Historic-inflation-calculator-value-money-changed-1900.html

So she is not as good as some people make out to be.

strikes are still going on now but the PM is't getting rid of them like the post workers.

With the trade unions they might have caused themselves harm but you would not kill somebody who just shot themselves in the foot;people would talk to them to see why they are doing it.

So she did not cover up the Hillsborough disaster then and said it was down to drunken victims.

[JOSH17]

There must be a reason why they was on strike a lot.

[lifelong]

Thanks for that. It will be interesting to see certain people here argue against it.

I think the argument goes along the lines of us being the only western power (joke) that doesnt own its own trains system, its own water, its own electric power stations and electricity supply, its own gas, etc etc. That women would have sold her own mother.

Just seen the video of the wonderful next generation attacking the police in Bristol, virtually all of whom were not even born when Thatcher was in power, what are they protesting about FFS?, most of them have never had a job, never want a job or have any intention of getting a ******* job, as long as the state carries on sponsoring their alcohol, drugs, cigarettes, food and other necessities of life such as tattoos and piercings. The great unwashed FFS, Britain is really in safe hands, for those opposed to immigration, let's sort out our own house first.

My son and his friends 5 of them were sat outside the Chelsea pub minding there own when they were moved on by the police, even though they live nearby they were prevented from returning to their own homes when my son objected he was hit around the legs by police batons. He lashed out and got a truncheon in the face. he has no previous and he and his mates work 50 hours a week raising money for charities which eases the social conscience of people like you. If you are happy living in a country where this is deemed acceptable police behaviour then you're welcome.

Margaret Thatcher- Where there was compassion may we bring greed, where there was community may we bring chaos, where there was work may we bring poverty, where there was hope may we bring despair, where there was laughter may we bring tears.

[Red Skin]

Greetings RAF. I'm not offended and am over 'it', whatever that 'it' is, already. It's a pity for your peace of mind that you seem to feel so much anger so many years after the event. I am certainly not going to attempt to tell you what to think. The phrase 'banging one's head against a brick wall' comes to mind.

The 'it' was my last sentence. My opinion is valid even if abhorrent to some and you certainly did suggest I should feel ashamed which I don't. I was suggesting you accept the way I feel and get over it.

I have not thought about Thatcher in years. She was about the only person in this world I could say I hated - certainly in my formative years.

She was probably the last conviction politician that rose to PM so she deserves some credit for that, even though I oppose everything she stood for. I'm venting my spleen not banging my head against to wall. I no longer expect politicians of any party to deliver the society I want to see. The only way to change things is to get involved yourself which is something I try to do.

[phantom]

My son and his friends 5 of them were sat outside the Chelsea pub minding there own when they were moved on by the police, even though they live nearby they were prevented from returning to their own homes when my son objected he was hit around the legs by police batons. He lashed out and got a truncheon in the face.

Is this your son in the first picture?? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2306165/Margaret-Thatcher-death-parties-The-Lefts-sick-celebration-Brixtons-streets.html

[The Gasbuster]

There must be a reason why they was on strike a lot.

Demanding reduced hours and more pay, usually.

[lifelong]

Is this your son in the first picture?? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2306165/Margaret-Thatcher-death-parties-The-Lefts-sick-celebration-Brixtons-streets.html

No none of them although I do like the "lets bury greed with her" line.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

I think the argument goes along the lines of us being the only western power (joke) that doesnt own its own trains system, its own water, its own electric power stations and electricity supply, its own gas, etc etc. That women would have sold her own mother.

My son and his friends 5 of them were sat outside the Chelsea pub minding there own when they were moved on by the police, even though they live nearby they were prevented from returning to their own homes when my son objected he was hit around the legs by police batons. He lashed out and got a truncheon in the face. he has no previous and he and his mates work 50 hours a week raising money for charities which eases the social conscience of people like you. If you are happy living in a country where this is deemed acceptable police behaviour then you're welcome.

Margaret Thatcher- Where there was compassion may we bring greed, where there was community may we bring chaos, where there was work may we bring poverty, where there was hope may we bring despair, where there was laughter may we bring tears.

or of course all of our gold reserves, just before the price went through the roof, oh wait a minute that was the prudent one Gormless Brown, just after he had plundered the private pensions.

[JOSH17]

Demanding reduced hours and more pay, usually.

Was't that up to the bosses of the company s ?

[Super]

Anyone else find her strangely attractive when she was in power?

[NickJ]

My son and his friends 5 of them were sat outside the Chelsea pub minding there own when they were moved on by the police, even though they live nearby they were prevented from returning to their own homes when my son objected he was hit around the legs by police batons. He lashed out and got a truncheon in the face. he has no previous and he and his mates work 50 hours a week raising money for charities which eases the social conscience of people like you. If you are happy living in a country where this is deemed acceptable police behaviour then you're welcome.

Margaret Thatcher- Where there was compassion may we bring greed, where there was community may we bring chaos, where there was work may we bring poverty, where there was hope may we bring despair, where there was laughter may we bring tears.

Was it coincidence your son was at a pub at which an advertised party took place to celebrate the death of a human being?

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Was't that up to the bosses of the company s ?

Well not according to the unions, by then they effectively ran the country and not the democratically elected government of the day, who were by the a minority government, because of the strikes people could only work 3 days a week, the power went off at 10pm, to conserve energy, it's called opportunism.

Anyway I would have 'the person' who groomed your views about Thatcher, would have told you that as well.

[cityexile]

Was't that up to the bosses of the company s ?

Which in many cases was us, for nationalised industries.

There was no doubt the mood of the country in '79 was for change. What it got was a reactionary government that set about it seemingly with glee. Union leaders sending their troops over the top for one last push, a state determined to crush them. You can guess who took the kicking.

Her legacy to me is summed up by this thread, and so many others like it. Some 30 years after she left power, the lovefest from some, and the wounds from others are still there to see. Still raw, so much passion still generated, after all this time.

Is that a healthy legacy?

[chipdawg]

or of course all of our gold reserves, just before the price went through the roof, oh wait a minute that was the prudent one Gormless Brown, just after he had plundered the private pensions.

To be fair though he had nothing else to sell- Thatcher had sold everything else!

[lifelong]

Was it coincidence your son was at a pub at which an advertised party took place to celebrate the death of a human being?

As I Said he lives on Chelsea Road its his local.

[lifelong]

or of course all of our gold reserves, just before the price went through the roof, oh wait a minute that was the prudent one Gormless Brown, just after he had plundered the private pensions.

I agree about Gormless Brown, I am not making a political point, more a humanitarian.

[The Gasbuster]

Was't that up to the bosses of the company s ?

Of course, as is the case today.

However, the likes of Scargill had other ideas. Trades Unions are very important organisations, they are in place to protect workers from unsafe practices and abuse.

However, Scargill believed that because he was head of a miner's union, with a membership of 200,000 people, that he had the "right" to bring down a democratically elected government. He had no right, of course.

Like her or loathe her, Thatcher was DEMOCRATICALLY elected three times, by a majority within an electorate of 28,000,000 people approx. That is a real mandate, not a few hundered thousand miners.

Scargill is / was a communist bully boy who encouraged violence and intimidation to get his way, a despicable individual.

Unions today are by law, run democratically, and do the job that they are supposed to. Nothing wrong with them today, with a couple of exceptions maybe..

[Crackers Corner]

Just seen the video of the wonderful next generation attacking the police in Bristol, virtually all of whom were not even born when Thatcher was in power, what are they protesting about FFS?, most of them have never had a job, never want a job or have any intention of getting a ******* job, as long as the state carries on sponsoring their alcohol, drugs, cigarettes, food and other necessities of life such as tattoos and piercings. The great unwashed FFS, Britain is really in safe hands, for those opposed to immigration, let's sort out our own house first.

what ever your view on thatcher and whoever else i think its a real lack of class to go out a celebrate someone dying of a stroke and then to kick off againts the police??. as a fringe voter who has voted labour 3 time and tories/lib dems once each this will make me think long and hard at the next election with the socialist reaction to all this. there are comments on this thread about her stopping milk ffs, if it was that big an issue why wasn't it reintroduced during the last labour government? i'm not saying she didn't do wrong as i was hit by the poll tax like everyone else at the time and wasn't her fan by any means but the reaction to someone dying has been pathetic.

[chipdawg]

This is a classic example of the old newspaper adage of never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

Margaret Thatcher had a lot of faults and I didnt agree with many of her policies including selling council houses and not building replacements. She also allowed large sections of manufacturing to fall by the wayside. Ive voted Labour much more often than conservative but to blame her for everything is a bit like the threads we use to have that blamed Lee Johnson for everything.

Margaret Thatcher did not destroy the unions. She destroyed the power of the communist leaders who believed that part of their remit was to run the country. Back in the 70s union leaders were regularly invited to no. 10 Downing Street when Labour was in power for beer and sandwiches to discuss policy! Arthur Scargill took the miners out on strike without a national vote which was against union policy. A lot of mines closed because the government switched from coal to gas for electricity generation because there was no continuity of supply with coal (due to miners strikes). Without Arthur Scargill and with a guarantee of regular coal supply things would have been very different.

An example of the awful state of the unions in the 1970s is Red Robbo (no not that one) a union leader at British Leyland. The link below to the article about BL gives a good summary e.g.

The BBC had once claimed that between 1978 and 1979 Robinson was credited with causing 523 walkouts at British Leyland, costing an estimated £200 million in lost production.

As for treating football fans like animals, the problem with hooliganism started in the early 70s, years before she was elected.

Gas, electricity and water prices have increased, but part of this is due to inflation. If you look at the second link you can do he calculations i.e.

£1000 in 1986 (gas privatisation) is equal t £2550 in todays money

£1000 in 1989 (electricity privatisation) is equal t £2260 in todays money.

Inflation does not cover the total increases but todays prices are affected by world prices and declining north sea production

Its amazing how people make sweeping statements about the past without any knowledge of what actually happened. Perhaps thats one of Thatchers failings far too many people leave school without and real knowledge of history.

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/margaret-thatcher-battles-british-leyland-2572433

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-1633409/Historic-inflation-calculator-value-money-changed-1900.html

I'm not going to argue with you on the unions, as I've said elsewhere they need to accept their share of the blame for what happened both in the 70s and the 80s. The government reaction is another thing, but I guess we'll never know where a different path would have led

On the inflation of energy bills point, I don't understand the point you're making. Are you saying that energy bills have escalated below inflation? Or is that what they'd have been in a publicly owned utility regime? I'm not being arsey and I'm probably just being dense but I don't see what that proves. It certainly doesn't prove that we're getting a better deal now or indeed that we're getting a worse deal