Mrs Thatcher Dead

[WTFiGO!?!]

Never saw my Dad so animated the night she was voted out, he's not the most expressive of blokes. He was ill with fever lying on the couch but quenched his fist and celebrated like we'd won the world cup.

I must've been 8-9, remember it vividly.

She also tried to prevent England going to Italia '90 and made out to the Italian authorities they may as well prepare for war when our lot arrive. They stuck us on Sardinia and treated the place like a prison island, apparently. Cheers Maggie !!

I'm shedding no tears. I didn't for Sadam or Osama and I won't be for her.

[chipdawg]

An interesting view...

The Left hates Margaret Thatcher because she reminds them they are wrong about everything

By Daniel Hannan

PUBLISHED:00:22, 13 September 2012| UPDATED:07:41, 13 September 2012

Now and again, we are reminded of the sheer nastiness of a certain kind of Leftie. Not, let me stress, all Lefties: I have Labour friends who are motivated by a more or less uncomplicated desire to help the disadvantaged.

But they march alongside some committed haters who define their politics not by what they like, but by what they loathe. They also define opponents not as human beings with whom they disagree, but as legitimate targets.

A lack of empathy, bordering almost on sociopathy sits behind their talk of caring and sharing.

On sale at the TUC Conference, before a storm of protest forced their withdrawal, were T-shirts glorying in the eventual death of Margaret Thatcher.

A generation of trade unionists will dance on Thatchers grave, says one, emblazoned with the image of her tombstone.

'Grotesque and obscene': Party packs for celebrating the death of Margaret Thatcher have been widely condemned

Another is wrapped in a bag printed with the words: In the event of Thatchers death, open bag and wear T-shirt immediately. The T-shirt has a picture of the former prime ministers Spitting Image puppet, with the slogan: Hey ho the witch is dead.

Unbelievably, the unemployed workers who produced them are taxpayer-funded.

Stop and think for a moment about what these T-shirts are celebrating.

Lady Thatcher is a frail and elderly grandmother. Yes, she was a strong-willed, divisive politician and thank heaven she was.

A more conciliatory figure would almost certainly not have made the changes necessary to rescue Britain from the mess we were in by the late Seventies.

But what does it say about someones mindset that they slide so easily from disagreeing with Lady Thatchers politics to gloating over the idea of her death?

'To celebrate the big day': The pack contains specially themed balloons, party whistles and T-shirts are also being sold to celebrate the prospect of Lady Thatcher's death

Its not just one T-shirt seller at the TUC. You get the same sentiment on Twitter, internet comment threads, even on BBC comedy programmes.

To a generation too young to remember the Thatcher governments let alone the calamity that had preceded them she is less a living, breathing woman than a symbol of evil, somewhere between Lady Macbeth and Cruella de Vil.

So hostile to Thatcherism is the cultural climate, so preponderant the Billy Elliot view of the time (with the musicals line Merry Christmas Maggie Thatcher/We all celebrate today/Cos its one day closer to your death), that young people must wonder how the lady won a single vote, let alone three general elections.

When I speak to sixth-formers in my constituency teenagers born long after she had left office they often tell me, with breezy certainty, that the Eighties were years of unmitigated greed punctuated only by corruption.

When I ask them how, then, they explain the results of the ballot box that saw Thatcher re-elected twice, they look uncomfortable and declare there must have been lots of nasty people in Britain.

I am just old enough to remember the end of the Seventies: power cuts, three-day weeks, constant strikes, price and income controls, inflation.

Worst of all, I remember the sense of despair, the conviction that Britain was finished.

I dont believe you can grasp Margaret Thatchers achievement without the context of what she displaced.

Throughout the Sixties and Seventies, this country had been outperformed by every European economy. Britain is a tragedy it has sunk to borrowing, begging, stealing until North Sea oil comes in, said Henry Kissinger.

The Wall Street Journal in 1975 was blunter: Goodbye, Great Britain: it was nice knowing you.

Margaret Thatchers victory in 1979 was like a thaw after the cruellest of winters. Inflation fell, strikes stopped, the latent enterprise of a free people was awakened.

Having lagged behind for a generation, we outgrew every European country in the Eighties except Spain (which was bouncing back from an even lower place). As revenues flowed in, taxes were cut and debt was repaid, while public spending contrary to almost universal belief rose.

In the Falklands, Margaret Thatcher showed the world that a great country doesnt retreat forever.

Lack of respect: Comedy programmes also insult Thatcher - a woman who is now an elderly, frail grandmother

And by ending the wretched policy of one-sided detente that had allowed the Soviets to march into Europe, Korea and Afghanistan, she set in train the events that would free hundreds of millions of people from what, in crude mathematical terms, must be reckoned the most murderous ideology humanity has known.

Why, then, do Lefties loathe her so much?

You always get the same answer: She closed down the old industries.

She didnt, of course: she simply stopped obliging everyone else to subsidise them.

But lets leave that objection to one side. Ask yourselves this, my Leftie friends: in what other developed country are the heavy industries still going as they were in the Seventies?

The world was changing and every nation had to adapt. All over Europe and North America, steel mills, coal mines and dockyards were closing, unable to compete with the developing world.

And unable to compete for a happy reason: a relatively high standard of living.

Success: Margaret Thatcher's victory in 1979 was like a thaw after the cruellest of winters

Which political parties are today seriously proposing we go back to massive subsidies, or nationalisation, for our old manufacturing sector? Only, as far as I can see, Respect, the Scottish Socialists and the BNP.

This isnt about logic, though. Its about the desire of a certain kind of person to enjoy a good hate.

Ive noticed that Lefties are unusually ready to tell the world of their various hatreds.

Look at how people describe themselves on Twitter: hates Tories, hates capitalism, hates neo-liberals.

No doubt if you look hard enough youll find the odd hates socialism, but its much rarer. Im not saying that hatred is exclusive to the Left: man is fallen, and we all occasionally give in to our baser instincts.

But a Rightist is far less likely to boast about hating something. When I point this out, Lefties generally reply: How can you possibly say that? Right-wingers are the biggest haters of all!

Such a response is interesting on three levels. First, its not true. Second, it concedes the essence of the charge (yeah, we totally hate you, but you deserve it). Third, its a form of projection: because we hate you, you must feel the same way about us.

In fact, the feeling is not reciprocated. The last time I spoke to Lady Thatcher was at a small dinner party two years ago.

She had moments of great lucidity and, in one of them, paid a handsome compliment to Michael Foot, the Labour leader whom she had defeated in the 1983 general election.

What a gentleman he had been, she said, what an orator, and how under-appreciated by his own party. I agreed with her about Michael Foot, but I couldnt help wonder how many Labour MPs would be equally generous about her.

No, what Lefties (with honourable exceptions) find hard to forgive is the ladys very success: the fact that she rescued a country that they had dishonoured and impoverished; that she inherited a Britain that was sclerotic, indebted and declining and left it proud, wealthy and free; that she never lost an election to them.

Their rage, in truth, can never be assuaged, for she reminds them of their own failure.

Daniel Hannan

As a Thatcher hater I don't disagree with all of that and don't feel particularly proud of myself for revelling in her demise. Additionally it can't be denied that this country was in a bad place in the years immediately prior to her premiership (though I believe we were on the up before she took over?). However, she was very much a prime minister of place. I'd be willing to bet money that Mr Hannan wasn't born in a pit village outside Barnsley or close to the docks in Sunderland or in the steel working communities around Sheffield. She sacrificed whole sections of society to allow herself the money to throw our entire economic lot into a basket of banking, call centres and insurance broking- a decision that continues to hamstring the economy to this day. While Germany, USA, Japan, France and Scandanvia were building up their heavy industry through modernisation and aggressive lobbying on foreign shores, she concentrated on breaking ours apart with policy and police truncheon. Why do you think so many of the public utilities she privatised are now foreign owned? ICI? Swedish. British Gas? German. BT? German. Just because a proportion of the population profited from her misdirection doesn't mean that she is misrepresented by those who oppose her

[BS15_RED]

I don't think anyone is reveering her... Personally I have no Political positive or negative views on her. I just think respect should be shown. She was after all elected in, by a majority vote in this Country by 'the people'... the longest serving British Prime Minister.

Whether we agree with her deeds or views...she was no Hitler or Hussain. The very working class people who went to war during WW2 for our freedom would show respect... something this Country has lost. A person of her character and strength is missing big time in British Politics. We wouldn't be in the mess we are now for sure.

Best post in this thread.

[allyolly]

I would suggest that those making positive comments about the woman weren't around when she was wrecking Britain.

Sadly I don't think you necessarily needed to be around as her legacy is the division between the "haves" and "have nots" which is still very much present in society today. Her position on Hillsborough has done much to prolong the agony felt by families of the 96. Football fans should remember this.

She remains such a divisive and hated figure I can't believe the country is even contemplating a ceremonial funeral.

[fka dagest]

She also produced Mark Thatcher - surely that's another black mark. X

[BS15_RED]

It will be interesting to see how people react in 20-30 years when Tony Blair dies, IMHO he left this country in a far worse state than Thatcher did.

[Fodbarmyarmy]

NO Football fan should ever think good of that woman

The Hillsborough cover up goes to the top.....and that was just one point of her hatred towards what she saw as "common man's sport

[Super]

Unless this is going to cause this season to be scrapped can it be moeved to Gen talk?

[reddoc]

As a Thatcher hater I don't disagree with all of that and don't feel particularly proud of myself for revelling in her demise. Additionally it can't be denied that this country was in a bad place in the years immediately prior to her Premier League (though I believe we were on the up before she took over?). However, she was very much a prime minister of place. I'd be willing to bet money that Mr Hannan wasn't born in a pit village outside Barnsley or close to the docks in Sunderland or in the steel working communities around Sheffield. She sacrificed whole sections of society to allow herself the money to throw our entire economic lot into a basket of banking, call centres and insurance broking- a decision that continues to hamstring the economy to this day. While Germany, USA, Japan, France and Scandanvia were building up their heavy industry through modernisation and aggressive lobbying on foreign shores, she concentrated on breaking ours apart with policy and police truncheon. Why do you think so many of the public utilities she privatised are now foreign owned? ICI? Swedish. British Gas? German. BT? German. Just because a proportion of the population profited from her misdirection doesn't mean that she is misrepresented by those who oppose her

I'm not sure Callaghan lost his vote of no confidence because we were on the up.

[Davros]

Destroyed lives, but also did a a lot of good.

I think it is sad people will demonise her in death, she worked damn hard from a working class baker background to get to where she did. The plummy voice all added after she got into politics because the institution would not accept her any other way, and took hell of a lot of abuse getting where she did, especially in the era she did it.

I can understand why a lot affected by her choices hate her, but I only wish we had politicians that stood up for what they believed and the backbone to stand up for theri country the way she did.

+1 when you take an emotive view she was an amazing women and its a shame some cant see though the bad.

[JOSH17]

NO Football fan should ever think good of that woman

The Hillsborough cover up goes to the top.....and that was just one point of her hatred towards what she saw as "common man's sport

1000%

[JOSH17]

NO Football fan should ever think good of that woman

The Hillsborough cover up goes to the top.....and that was just one point of her hatred towards what she saw as "common man's sport

1000%

http://www.lfcreds.com/reds/index.php/topic,44629.msg1450213.html?PHPSESSID=e250qp6en8dvemnr1hl4l4cf85#new

[Guest]

I would suggest that those making positive comments about the woman weren't around when she was wrecking Britain.

That maybe your opinion but its wrong.

Thankfully the elected goverment ran the country for her 3 terms not the unions who thought they did. She (ie the rest of us ) refused to subsidise failing industries. Dont consider it was wrecked at all, saved from ransom and being walked over maybe.

[Davros]

NO Football fan should ever think good of that woman

The Hillsborough cover up goes to the top.....and that was just one point of her hatred towards what she saw as "common man's sport

Bollox, it's the police and them alone, you cant just tag it onto the government of the time becuase its conveniant and fits your view of the world.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

I don't think anyone is reveering her... Personally I have no Political positive or negative views on her. I just think respect should be shown. She was after all elected in, by a majority vote in this Country by 'the people'... the longest serving British Prime Minister.

Whether we agree with her deeds or views...she was no Hitler or Hussain. The very working class people who went to war during WW2 for our freedom would show respect... something this Country has lost. A person of her character and strength is missing big time in British Politics. We wouldn't be in the mess we are now for sure.

Don't understand your logic mate. You admit you have no political opinion of her, but then go on to express political views. Do we respect her just because she was elected? Many tyrants have been elected. That she was the longest serving prime minister? Many (indeed most) tyrants rule their country for a very long time (Hitler, Stalin, Louis XIV, Pol Pot). The working class people who fought in WW2 should despise her for what she did: her principle aim was to destroy the working class voice. As to the Falklands, that was an engineered conflict to win votes at a time when her popularity was at rock bottom. Indeed, without the Falklands, she would probably have lost the 1983 election even to Michael Foot, she was so low in the polls in 1982. Oh she had character and strength all right: a thoroughly nasty and cynical character and the strength to impose it on this country, whatever the consequences.

How would Thatcher have got us out of the mess we are in now? Would she have regulated the banks? Would she hell: it was her lousy government that gave the banks the freedom to destroy our economy in the first place! She might have turned us into a police state, admittedly, as she almost did during the Miners Strike, but frankly I could do without that.

I don't think anyone in this entire thread has quoted one thing she did that benefited the country, other than comments about the Falklands. Doubled VAT? Sold off council houses? Destroyed the trade union movement? Lowered taxes for the rich? Introduced the poll tax? Created the yuppie class? Demonized the working class? Hillsborough and the killing off of football as we knew it? Support for Murdoch and his cronies? Sorry, what am I forgetting?

[Davros]

1000%

I love this from a 17 year old boy who was not born then. Nothing like not letting a good consperacy get in the way of facts, I'm sure the Police phoned strait to downing street for aproval as they were covering up what they had done. Stupidity like this is disrespecfull to those who died.

[allyolly]

I love this from a 17 year old boy who was not born then. Nothing like not letting a good consperacy get in the way of facts, I'm sure the Police phoned strait to downing street for aproval as they were covering up what they had done. Stupidity like this is disrespecfull to those who died.

There is little doubt that she had a personal input into deflecting criticism away from the police instead of allowing Justice Taylor's report to focus on a key failing i.e. their actions. This surely has had a huge impact on the families of those that died and that is why its taken so long for a PM to apologise.

This is disrespectful to those that died, their families and anyone else who attends football matches that could have found themselves in that situation.

[Aizoon]

There is little doubt that she had a personal input into deflecting criticism away from the police instead of allowing Justice Taylor's report to focus on a key failing i.e. their actions. This surely has had a huge impact on the families of those that died and that is why its taken so long for a PM to apologise.

This is disrespectful to those that died, their families and anyone else who attends football matches that could have found themselves in that situation.

She had just used the South Yorkshire Police Force to crush the Miners' Union - she wasn't going to be happy if the truth about their conduct at Hillsborough came out. People might start asking questions about Orgreave, just to mention one...

[Davros]

There is little doubt that she had a personal input into deflecting criticism away from the police instead of allowing Justice Taylor's report to focus on a key failing i.e. their actions. This surely has had a huge impact on the families of those that died and that is why its taken so long for a PM to apologise.

This is disrespectful to those that died, their families and anyone else who attends football matches that could have found themselves in that situation.

That’s an opinion not a fact. "That should read in my opinion ......." which you’re entitled to, what you can’t do is spout opinion as fact. I was a Liverpool supporter at the time as I was still a young lad; however some of my friends were at that game and not one seen Mrs Thatcher I can assure you. One of my friends and his dad were pulling people out of the mess that the police created, retrospectively you can say all sorts of things but the facts are those that stand up and are in the report (the one that says the government of the time had no involvement in it).

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/

[chipdawg]

I'm not sure Callaghan lost his vote of no confidence because we were on the up.

Didn't he lose it because of his failure to call an election the year before when he was ahead in the polls? The whole 'Winter of Discontent' thing was down to him resisting public sector pay increases in line with an inflation rate that was out of control because the economy was rebounding. I'm not stating that as fact, that's always been my impression of something that happened just before I was born

[054123]

It is opinion, I agree.

My opinion is that the omnipotent Iron Lady knew damn well that the police has ballsed up and was happy to tow the party line and not ask anymore questions, which in my mind is just as bad when you are supposed to be the one asking the question.

A hugely devisive figure who's legacy of diometrically opposed opinion is in itself evidence that she wasn't great. No more deserving of praise than Blair.

Next we will be having discussions about the Nazi party's excellent social reforms after the depression and neatly overlook the genocide.

People talk of her great straight talking demeanour but ultimately her selfish , unsympathetic, bloody mindedness was her worst trait, but luckily, like all those corrupted by power, her long over due undoing.

[Mr Mosquito]

I suppose she was a superb and clever politician in exactly the same way that Hitler was a superb and clever politician. The sinking of the Belgrano was a war crime of the worst order, and she lied blatantly afterwards to try to get herself off the hook but was found out. Her aim was to crush the spirit of working people, and she achieved it. I'm amazed that anyone on a football forum has a good word to say for her.

Margaret Thatcher's biggest lie was pointed out to me on the BCFC ziderheads forum in that she often stated she didn't want Britain to belong to a European Federal State. Well, the EU certainly is a European Federal State. Indeed, with regard to the referendum on EEC membership, Thatcher supported the 'Yes' campaign so she was as big a liar as Tony Blair if she said she was against a European Federal state. Her one saving grace was that she appeared to hate fellow Tory Edward Heath with a passion......

Never trust any Tory on Europe as they love the hopelessly corrupt and criminal led EU project as much as the Liberals and Labour do....

Traitor Edward Heath and EEC cronies......

[The Gasbuster]

Didn't he lose it because of his failure to call an election the year before when he was ahead in the polls? The whole 'Winter of Discontent' thing was down to him resisting public sector pay increases in line with an inflation rate that was out of control because the economy was rebounding. I'm not stating that as fact, that's always been my impression of something that happened just before I was born

The '70s were a wretched time. Constant power cuts caused by over powerful unions, who continually made unreasonable demands with regard to pay rises and working hours. Strikes were called, without ballot, over the smallest of issues. Intimidation was rife throughout union ranks. A truly awful decade to live through.

[054123]

It is opinion, I agree.

My opinion is that the omnipotent Iron Lady knew damn well that the police has ballsed up and was happy to tow the party line and not ask anymore questions, which in my mind is just as bad when you are supposed to be the one asking the question.

A hugely devisive figure who's legacy of diometrically opposed opinion is in itself evidence that she wasn't great. No more deserving of praise than Blair.

Next we will be having discussions about the Nazi party's excellent social reforms after the depression and neatly overlook the genocide.

People talk of her great straight talking demeanour but ultimately her selfish , unsympathetic, bloody mindedness was her worst trait, but luckily, like all those corrupted by power, her long over due undoing.

Sorry, I need to make a slight edit in line with other posters views.

Hitler is now actually dead, so I shall now show some respect

[Calculus]

Margaret Thatcher's biggest lie was pointed out to me on the BCFC ziderheads forum in that she often stated she didn't want Britain to belong to a European Federal State. Well, the EU certainly is a European Federal State. Indeed, with regard to the referendum on EEC membership, Thatcher supported the 'Yes' campaign so she was as big a liar as Tony Blair if she said she was against a European Federal state. Her one saving grace was that she appeared to hate fellow Tory Edward Heath with a passion......

... and never forget that Thatcher signed the Single European Act....

[054123]

The '70s were a wretched time. Constant power cuts caused by over powerful unions, who continually made unreasonable demands with regard to pay rises and working hours. Strikes were called, without ballot over the smallest of issues. A truly awful decade to live tghrough.

I think you are probably right and I wouldn't hold any admiration for any government of the era.

Sadly, this neatly clouds the opinion of her actual tenure through the eighties.

[Mr Mosquito]

... and never forget that Thatcher signed the Single European Act....

...indeed, as big an act of treason as was John Major's signing of the Maastricht Treaty and Tony Blair's signing of the Lisbon Treaty. All done without consulting the British electorate via a free and fair referendum as per usual.

[Robbored]

...indeed, as big an act of treason as was John Major's signing of the Maastricht Treaty and Tony Blair's signing of the Lisbon Treaty. All done without consulting the British electorate via a free and fair referendum as per usual.

Largely because a huge percentage( probably approx 80%) of the British population had no idea what the pro's and con's of these treaties were.

[Davros]

Margaret Thatcher's biggest lie was pointed out to me on the BCFC ziderheads forum in that she often stated she didn't want Britain to belong to a European Federal State. Well, the EU certainly is a European Federal State. Indeed, with regard to the referendum on EEC membership, Thatcher supported the 'Yes' campaign so she was as big a liar as Tony Blair if she said she was against a European Federal state. Her one saving grace was that she appeared to hate fellow Tory Edward Heath with a passion......

Never trust any Tory on Europe as they love the hopelessly corrupt and criminal led EU project as much as the Liberals and Labour do....

Traitor Edward Heath and EEC cronies......

Oh dear, there is so much wrong with what you have said there I'm not even going to start to correct all of what you have said. I'll just put it succinctly as you have taken the future and retrospectively made those accountable for it ignoring all the stuff in the middle.

[Mr Mosquito]

Oh dear, there is so much wrong with what you have said there I'm not even going to start to correct all of what you have said. I'll just put it succinctly as you have taken the future and retrospectively made those accountable for it ignoring all the stuff in the middle.

The future for Britain is now subjugation by the hopelessly corrupt and criminal led European Union project. The Tories started the process by signing us up to the EEC in 1973 and they still refuse us a referendum on Britain's continuing EU membership. Shame on Camoron and the Tories for promising us that EU referendum way back in 2009 - now we've elected them they 'promise' us a referendum in 2017 if we re-elect them. It would be nice to consign the Tories to the dustbin of political history along with their Labour and Liberal buddies.