A Society Of Cowards

[Davros]

Davros is a Sunni. Typical of muslim apologists ....... blah blah blah I'm a right wing loon who knows more about Davros than Davros knows, I have never studied Islam and am too stupid to realise that Sunni is a massive branch of Islam.

 

Which branch I dont know, what laws he holds true I dont know, but pfft what I dont know I'll brush under the carpet becuase it does not fit my agenda.

 

 

This is a link to one of the Mosques I go to, find me some hatefull things in the teachings here please?

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/TheMWLLO/videos

 

And to address stoning, cutting of hands I accept them as part of my faith, I dont deny them, I dont think its correct I think its a perversion by men as it describes here If you only look for the bad you will only find the bad.  Like I have said to you before and you like to ignore this over and over is, Islam dictates that you only get reward for good deeds, and good actions, if your going to prescribe death by stoning you should be very sure that its legal in the eyes of god, and as its not in the quran and its hadith, I would argue no Muslim can be sure.

[dezgimed]

This thread is really pulling the bullying, racist neanderthals out of the woodwork, and the fact there only seems to be about 4 or 5 of you gives me some hope for the human race as a whole. Have you never stopped to think that it's your revolting attitudes and gross manipulation of small news stories to fit your agenda that causes an incredibly tiny minority of people to see you as a threat to their lifestyle and culture and react in an extreme manner?

 

This country has always accepted immigrants and their customs and what you laughably call indigenous culture is actually an amalgam of everything that has come to this country before. In time the same will happen with aspects of Muslim culture and people like yourselves will be lauding that as a part of our indigenous culture, whilst railing against whatever the latest wave of immigration is bringing.

 

Should you have actual first hand experience of Muslims you meet trying to convert you to Islam and force their values onto you, any more than (for example) Jehovah's Witnesses try to convert you to christianity, then I might have some empathy with your views but as all you do is post YouTube videos of people spouting rhetoric or links to obscure papers by people purporting to be academics, then I call bullshit. As far as I can tell it's mostly urban myths peddled by gullible people who somehow believe that our whole country and society is going to come tumbling down if we allow a few of these people to settle here.

 

All these people do, for the overwhelming majority, is practice their faith in private with no overflow onto your 'indigenous' lives whatsoever. Yet all you do is bully people on here that dare to stand up for themselves and what they believe in. It's not as though they started it, and I've certainly never seen anything from anyone on here saying we should live by their rules. The only people I see on here spouting that sort of thing are yourselves.

 

And I am perfectly aware that I 'played the racist card' at the start of this post, but that is only because it is exactly what you are, despite your pathetic protestations to the contrary.

 

P.S. I'm not sure you understand what a secular country is. It's a country where church and state are completely separate. This is not the case in the UK, hence this is NOT  a secular country.

 

If you're referring to me, please directly quote any bullying, racist or Neanderthal type behavior?

 

It is none of the above to ask questions.

 

I'll be waiting.

[richwwtk]

Could we imagine, for a minute, that football was a religion.

 

The majority of the followers of this religion are loosely affiliated to various sects, the sort of people that would claim to belong to Manchester United, Liverpool or Chelsea for instance, but were no more committed than watching their acts of worship on TV or following how their sect was getting on in the papers.

 

As with any religion, each sect has it's more devout followers. For instance, most people using this forum would be fairly devout followers of the Bristol City sect. As part of the Bristol City sect we are ideologically opposed to some sects more than others, the bristol rovers sect for example.

 

There is a very small minority of each sect, that somehow finds it acceptable to use violence against members of other sects in the name of Bristol City. This behaviour is rightly despised and condemned by the vast majority of the followers of Bristol City but their viewpoint is somehow never heard in the media and only the bad apples are ever highlighted.

 

Some sects, Millwall for example, have more of a reputation for this kind of activity than others, but nonetheless the people carrying out these acts are still a tiny majority of the whole.

 

Each and every follower of the football religion believes their sect is the only true way forward and would love others to join them, but in the main they just get on with following their own branch and let everyone else get on with their business.

 

There are also plenty of atheists in the world that don't follow the religion of football. Unfortunately a great many of these people have the impression that the proportion of football followers that are violent and use force and aggression against each other is much higher than it actually is. Some of these non football followers believe the media impression so much that they are actually afraid of football followers and would like to see them kept separate. Sometimes whole governments can believe this and unfairly oppress the followers of football (Thatcher with ID cards and fences).

 

The trouble is, from time to time, innocent people are caught up in the violence that surrounds the tiny minority of football followers meaning that they appear more and more in the media and grow an even worse reputation for football as a whole.

 

Thankfully, when caught, the perpetrators of this violence are met with the full force of the law, and this justice is fully supported by the peaceful majority of football followers.

 

My questions would be this.....

 

1. Whose fault is the reputation that football followers have?

2. Is it the football followers fault that their condemnation of this behaviour doesn't appear in the media?

3. Is it fair that football has restrictive controls placed upon it because of the views and actions of this tiny minority?

4. Is it inherently wrong to assume that all people that look like football followers actually are?

5. Is it fair that the non-football followers expect every single football follower to be accountable and apologetic for the tiny minority?

 

P.S. No dezgimed, I'm not aware of you indulging in ant bullying, racist or neanderthal behaviour. As you have stated, you have only asked questions.

[Davros]

Could we imagine, for a minute, that football was a religion.

 

The majority of the followers of this religion are loosely affiliated to various sects, the sort of people that would claim to belong to Manchester United, Liverpool or Chelsea for instance, but were no more committed than watching their acts of worship on TV or following how their sect was getting on in the papers.

 

As with any religion, each sect has it's more devout followers. For instance, most people using this forum would be fairly devout followers of the Bristol City sect. As part of the Bristol City sect we are ideologically opposed to some sects more than others, the bristol rovers sect for example.

 

There is a very small minority of each sect, that somehow finds it acceptable to use violence against members of other sects in the name of Bristol City. This behaviour is rightly despised and condemned by the vast majority of the followers of Bristol City but their viewpoint is somehow never heard in the media and only the bad apples are ever highlighted.

 

Some sects, Millwall for example, have more of a reputation for this kind of activity than others, but nonetheless the people carrying out these acts are still a tiny majority of the whole.

 

Each and every follower of the football religion believes their sect is the only true way forward and would love others to join them, but in the main they just get on with following their own branch and let everyone else get on with their business.

 

There are also plenty of atheists in the world that don't follow the religion of football. Unfortunately a great many of these people have the impression that the proportion of football followers that are violent and use force and aggression against each other is much higher than it actually is. Some of these non football followers believe the media impression so much that they are actually afraid of football followers and would like to see them kept separate. Sometimes whole governments can believe this and unfairly oppress the followers of football (Thatcher with ID cards and fences).

 

The trouble is, from time to time, innocent people are caught up in the violence that surrounds the tiny minority of football followers meaning that they appear more and more in the media and grow an even worse reputation for football as a whole.

 

Thankfully, when caught, the perpetrators of this violence are met with the full force of the law, and this justice is fully supported by the peaceful majority of football followers.

 

My questions would be this.....

 

1. Whose fault is the reputation that football followers have?

2. Is it the football followers fault that their condemnation of this behaviour doesn't appear in the media?

3. Is it fair that football has restrictive controls placed upon it because of the views and actions of this tiny minority?

4. Is it inherently wrong to assume that all people that look like football followers actually are?

5. Is it fair that the non-football followers expect every single football follower to be accountable and apologetic for the tiny minority?

 

P.S. No dezgimed, I'm not aware of you indulging in ant bullying, racist or neanderthal behaviour. As you have stated, you have only asked questions.

 

Such a good analogy!

[richwwtk]

I forgot to add a question...

 

6. Are the violent minority representing all football followers, football in general, their particular sect or none of these?

[Red-Robbo]

OK making that statement based on what? Do you know the difference between the selafi, Maliki, hanafi or the brailvi or debundi? Western Muslims last Friday all over the country denounced ISIS and what they do. Nil media coverage, people like to make sweeping statements Muslims are this that and the other I'm sure the passafist ahmehdiya would amuse you. Rad is not interested in being educated about Islam but the least you could do is read up a little and not group all muzzies as one group, maybe we do have different view's...

 

 

 

 

I think you misunderstood my point, Dav.

 

It isn't that all Muslims are extremists or "evil" or "potential rapists" etc ...

 

It's that part of the problem is the way in which the qu'uran is interpreted by quite a wide number of people. It seems to me the religion needs to go through some sort of reformation and enlightenment, similar to that which shook the Christian churches from their medieval beliefs.

 

Incidentally, I'd agree with you that "Muslim grooming gangs" highlights a problem with immigration, rather than the nature of Islam. Pretty sure those sort of guys weren't told to be paedos in a mosque and in fact, I'd be surprised if they even went to one regularly. The problem is the unenlightened, sexually repressed and patriarchal nature of Kashmiri and Arab culture. Allowing large numbers of people from such backgrounds to ghetto-ise certain British towns and cities has created a powder keg situation.  

[TRL]

Could we imagine, for a minute, that football was a religion.

 

The majority of the followers of this religion are loosely affiliated to various sects, the sort of people that would claim to belong to Manchester United, Liverpool or Chelsea for instance, but were no more committed than watching their acts of worship on TV or following how their sect was getting on in the papers.

 

As with any religion, each sect has it's more devout followers. For instance, most people using this forum would be fairly devout followers of the Bristol City sect. As part of the Bristol City sect we are ideologically opposed to some sects more than others, the bristol rovers sect for example.

 

There is a very small minority of each sect, that somehow finds it acceptable to use violence against members of other sects in the name of Bristol City. This behaviour is rightly despised and condemned by the vast majority of the followers of Bristol City but their viewpoint is somehow never heard in the media and only the bad apples are ever highlighted.

 

Some sects, Millwall for example, have more of a reputation for this kind of activity than others, but nonetheless the people carrying out these acts are still a tiny majority of the whole.

 

Each and every follower of the football religion believes their sect is the only true way forward and would love others to join them, but in the main they just get on with following their own branch and let everyone else get on with their business.

 

There are also plenty of atheists in the world that don't follow the religion of football. Unfortunately a great many of these people have the impression that the proportion of football followers that are violent and use force and aggression against each other is much higher than it actually is. Some of these non football followers believe the media impression so much that they are actually afraid of football followers and would like to see them kept separate. Sometimes whole governments can believe this and unfairly oppress the followers of football (Thatcher with ID cards and fences).

 

The trouble is, from time to time, innocent people are caught up in the violence that surrounds the tiny minority of football followers meaning that they appear more and more in the media and grow an even worse reputation for football as a whole.

 

Thankfully, when caught, the perpetrators of this violence are met with the full force of the law, and this justice is fully supported by the peaceful majority of football followers.

 

My questions would be this.....

 

1. Whose fault is the reputation that football followers have?

2. Is it the football followers fault that their condemnation of this behaviour doesn't appear in the media?

3. Is it fair that football has restrictive controls placed upon it because of the views and actions of this tiny minority?

4. Is it inherently wrong to assume that all people that look like football followers actually are?

5. Is it fair that the non-football followers expect every single football follower to be accountable and apologetic for the tiny minority?

 

P.S. No dezgimed, I'm not aware of you indulging in ant bullying, racist or neanderthal behaviour. As you have stated, you have only asked questions.

all great, apart from religion being a belief, with no factual information to prove it exists.. where as football does and you can sit and watch it..   Apart from that, exactly the same!!!

[richwwtk]

Football actually existing or not is completely irrelevant. Peoples beliefs are completely private to them, I really couldn't give a damn what they believe. All I was trying to do is make the point that the way football and it's fans are portrayed in the media, especially in the eighties, is comparable to Muslims.

 

As we are all football fans you really should be able to see that the behaviour of a small minority have badly damaged the way that football fans are perceived by the wider community, and yet we are not all being asked to apologise for, and be held responsible for, their actions. The period of time when we were, was a time when normal, law abiding football fans were made to feel persecuted and hounded by the government, the police and the media.

 

It wasn't fair on football fans then, and it's not fair on the peaceful majority of Muslims living in this country now.

 

As a final note, for the record, I am not a Muslim. I hold no particular spiritual beliefs. I merely believe in leaving people alone to live as they see fit. I don't even believe in capital punishment for gasheads, although that's about as close as it gets.

[TRL]

Football actually existing or not is completely irrelevant. Peoples beliefs are completely private to them, I really couldn't give a damn what they believe. All I was trying to do is make the point that the way football and it's fans are portrayed in the media, especially in the eighties, is comparable to Muslims.

 

As we are all football fans you really should be able to see that the behaviour of a small minority have badly damaged the way that football fans are perceived by the wider community, and yet we are not all being asked to apologise for, and be held responsible for, their actions. The period of time when we were, was a time when normal, law abiding football fans were made to feel persecuted and hounded by the government, the police and the media.

 

It wasn't fair on football fans then, and it's not fair on the peaceful majority of Muslims living in this country now.

 

As a final note, for the record, I am not a Muslim. I hold no particular spiritual beliefs. I merely believe in leaving people alone to live as they see fit. I don't even believe in capital punishment for gasheads, although that's about as close as it gets.

Unfortunately it isn't a small amount, last count was between 3 and 5 % are radicalised so 48 to 80 million nut jobs, and if the argument is it is all relative, well, good luck with that argument as 48 to 80 million people is a hell of a lot to keep an eye on! a bit different from a few thousand wouldn't you say?

 

then add on the non Muslim religious nut jobs and the picture is not so easy to brush under the carpet as just a few!

[Davros]

Of course you accept them, that was the whole point of asking the question and showing the video (evidence). It's why Sunni solders are committing such horrible acts in Iraq as I type this. It's why the Shias of Iran hang gay men from cranes in public squares.

But how on earth could you convert to a religion that teaches cutting of hands and stonings as part of that faith? It's horribly backward and primitive. Surely you can find a religion that does not contain such violence against your fellow men?

Your comment that you accept such nonsense as part of the faith and then write "I don't think it's correct, it's a perversion by men" totally undermines the credibility of your beliefs - if Islam was a coherent, solid and true system of beliefs there would be no perversions by men, either your god would prevent it, or the followers would be so over-awed by the teachings they would not want to change them. But of course there is no god, and the teachings are not amazing - they teach stoning as a form of punishment!!

And given all that, surely you can see why increasing numbers of people are asking WTF are we doing importing such large numbers of people into Western Europe who believe in such barbarism?

Stonings, beheadings, amputations as punishments, this sort of savagery has nothing at all to do with modern day Western Europe. These act are an abomination and are totally against our culture and society. And this is why Islam has no place in the public sphere of Western Europe.

Again you ignore what I put, just to go on a rant, Islam is not about punishment its about mercy, kindness and charity, however it does have capital punishment prescribed in sharia. Just like the USA have capital punishment and what half the UK are in favour of. The methods of punishment are generally disputed as the quaran does not prescribe any punishment such as stoning.

[Davros]

[Davros]

[chipdawg]

As a counter-point (and not a contribution) to these arguments, I went to watch the Tour De France in Burngreave in Sheffield yesterday which is a predominantly Muslim area on the edge of the city centre. It was heartening to see so many local people of all creeds out with their families, some in 'Western' clothes, some in 'traditional' garb, cheering and waving flags of the Union Jack, the cross of St George and the white rose of Yorkshire and taking pride not only in a big event coming to their little suburb, but also in welcoming others (the cyclists, the support staff and the interested observers) to come and watch it with them. The local Islamic centre on the route was decked out in TDF flags and it was all very heartening and filled me with a certain amount of civic pride and pride in my county (as OTIB's resident Yorkie!)

I don't offer this tale of my weekend as some kind of proof for or against any of the discussion that is taking place, just to inject a touch of positivity into what is a pretty heated and generally negative (on both sides) thread

[Davros]

This bloke is capable of anything.  Muhahahahahhahahahaahhaahahahahaahhhahahhaha!

 

Just making the point that, those people in that video that BB posted, although they agree that those things are acceptable they also agree that is the case.  FYI I mentioned in another post that I don't believe stoning is a just punishment as do many many Muslims.  I also mentioned its banned in 50% of Muslim countries and its also heading that way in others too, its only hardline right wingers like you that hang on to it.

 

Just for reference a lot of Muslims I have spoken too are not attending their local mosques this Ramadan for fear of attacks from EDL, Britains First etc....  that's the reality and on the other hand there have been 0 stoning's in the UK.  Which is why you and BB have to scrape the planet for examples.

[Davros]

You're bonkers mate.  You just wrote 50% of mulsim countries have banned stonings - that still leaves the other 50%.  Hardly scraping the planet is it.

 

And re not attending mosques over ramadan for fear of attacks etc.  Ask yourself: why don't we hear or read such comments from other religious communities?  Maybe they are better religions? Better people?  More integrated? Humble ... no jihadist tendencies etc.

 

Meanwhile in the real world Muslims in the UK have so far helped thousands of family's suffering in conflict zones and in general.   And there have been several attacks on those same people by people you support...

 

a lot of Muslims I have spoken too are not attending their local mosques this Ramadan for fear of attacks from EDL, Britains First

 

 

I'd be amazed if a Muslim would even want to speak to you after the shite you have been posting.

 

I hope you get banned, you vile, vile excuse for a human being.

 

ILL TYPE IT SLOWLY FOR YOU! THE POST THAT BB PUT UP ABOUT SOME GUY IN NORWAY, THAT IS THE OTHER PART OF THE EQUATION.  I HAPPEN TO THINK ITS WRONG BUT ITS A VIEW HELD BY MANY MUSLIMS!

 

STOP TWISTING MY POST YOU TWISTED LITTLE MAN.

[Davros]

a lot of Muslims I have spoken too are not attending their local mosques this Ramadan for fear of attacks from EDL, Britains First

 

 

I'd be amazed if a Muslim would even want to speak to you after the shite you have been posting.

 

You need help. Seriously, you need help.

 

I'm pretty sure you have zero support on here after that disgraceful  comment.

 

"Every Muslim knows that for a women to be killed there need to be 4 witnesses to actuall penetration"

 

I hope you get banned, you vile, vile excuse for a human being.

 

Just for clarity that is the sharia law not my words, in response to BB's post on stoning, and just for more clarity I don't support either.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zina

 

 

Islamic law prescribes punishments for both Muslim and non-Muslim men and women for the act of zin?? as interpreted from the Qur'an and the Hadith. In principle it is an extremely difficult offense to prove, requiring four respectable witnesses to the actual act of penetration.