Plan B From S C?

[redcherryberry]

I can't see why its such a ridiculous policy, the players we signed aged 18 -24 for the first team were Derrick Williams, JET, Wagstaff, Pack, Parish and Flint.

With the exception of Parish all featured under Coterill a fair bit even Flint before he picked up his injury.

JET was a shrewd notching many goals and assists and Derrick Williams was young player of the year.

The only two players we signed that were decent that were not in this age group were Osbourne & Fielding. Both being 25 years of age when we signed them.

Yet we also signed Harewood (33), Shorey (32), El-Abd (29), Barnett (28) and boy what a breath of fresh air they were.

We should be looking at players who have more than two years match experience aged 21-25 in my humble opinion for next season, for example Luke Freeman, even though it is very unlikely now.

Well said.

Pboro have a transfer policy of signing lower league talent aged 21-23 & look at the money they have made on their players over the years. They recently picked up Jon Taylor 21, from Shrewsbury who I got no doubts this time next year will be a big money target for bigger fry.

[Harry]

if you fully read my original post I am saying exactly what you are and also referenced Freeman, if their good enough their old enough, but the way the policy was implemented last season was utterly ridiculous and it was never going to work and could have ended in relegation from a cesspit into a shithole.

Great comments from MarcoFisher.  Good on you son, you're talking sense.

 

Esmond - you spent a few pages debating the other day with me about signing players aged 21-24.  I argued that this is definitely the market we should be looking at, you were disagreeing.  Now you're saying here that this has always been your opinion.

 

Whichever thread it was the other week (might have been the Experience v Youth one), I said we'd probably need to sign one experienced player and then focus on 21-24 year olds.  You vehemently disagreed.

[Harry]

Well said.

Pboro have a transfer policy of signing lower league talent aged 21-23 & look at the money they have made on their players over the years. They recently picked up Jon Taylor 21, from Shrewsbury who I got no doubts this time next year will be a big money target for bigger fry.

Yep, Jon Taylor.  Another one I'm ticking off of my list.

He's been easily 'gettable' over the last few years, but we don't ever seem interested in these types??

[glynriley]

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Great comments from MarcoFisher.  Good on you son, you're talking sense.

 

Esmond - you spent a few pages debating the other day with me about signing players aged 21-24.  I argued that this is definitely the market we should be looking at, you were disagreeing.  Now you're saying here that this has always been your opinion.

 

Whichever thread it was the other week (might have been the Experience v Youth one), I said we'd probably need to sign one experienced player and then focus on 21-24 year olds.  You vehemently disagreed.

 

I don't think I was actually, the debate was about the Irish wonder kid who was considered not good enough for us and still hasn't got a league club but he has turned down Shamrock Rovers I see,  but don't let the truth get in the way as usual, but feel free to find it and come back when you do, my view is simple sign the best available players that fall within our fee and wage structure, if they happen to be younger and they are good enough great, if they are a bit older and good enough great, if a couple of them are 30 + and are not here for the water skiing and travel great.

[marcofisher]

I don't think I was actually, the debate was about the Irish wonder kid who was considered not good enough for us and still hasn't got a league club but he has turned down Shamrock Rovers I see,  but don't let the truth get in the way as usual, but feel free to find it and come back when you do, my view is simple sign the best available players that fall within our fee and wage structure, if they happen to be younger and they are good enough great, if they are a bit older and good enough great, if a couple of them are 30 + and are not here for the water skiing and travel great.

We shouldn't really be paying a fee for anyone over 24 years of age though, it's not sustainable considering the heavy debts we have incurred over the last couple of years. Another problem is players over 30+ the more talented ones for example will often not fit into our wage structure, which is why i'm not so sure if we will see both Nosworthy and W.Elliot back, they have been in the championship a high number of years therefore the wage they will be looking at will likely be higher than we would like to give them.

 

It's a question of risk vs reward simply, we can go out and spend for success but risk sustainability, or have sustainability with buying in young players aged 21-24 who have enough experience but accept that it will likely take us a few more years to get back up. 

[spudski]

It's all well and good signing players in the 25-28 year old age range, depending imho, on their length of contract.

 

Arsenal for one, look to be selling their players around about 29, as that's when it's been noticed value decreases immensely and performance does too.

 

If SC brings in a bunch in this age range, and we were to gain promotion, it is the next couple of years you have to worry about.

 

Remember, we cannot look at players, buying and selling, and contracts in the same light as we have for many years...all these financial restrictions mean we have to be ever more prudent in the market.

 

SC is not stupid. He knows what the averages tell him, that he will probably be gone before the 3 years on his contract are up.

Bring in players to do ok for you during your length of contract, or over a short term 2 year spell, and you'll do ok, and it won't affect your next appointment. It's a short term strategy and not long term. Basically, it covers your arse.

 

What has annoyed me the most about this, is the gutless board. They come out with the big announcement of their 'Five Pillars' strategy and it seems to be lost without a whimper.

 

How the hell do you allow a manager to come out in the press and say '

"There was a craving to look at players who were 18-21 and then over the year they (the board) got used to taking in the 30-33-year-olds.''

 

Shouldn't the board at least come out and say to their paying support, what direction they wish to be going in now.

Allowing a manager who is a cog in the wheel, to say the board are getting used to his ways, is so weak, it's laughable.

Who's running this show? If they agree with what SC is doing, and have had a change of heart...which obviously they have, because they negotiate the deals with the players SC wants, then they at least should have the balls to stand up and make a statement of intent.

 

It's a complete guessing game tbh.

 

We are in exactly the same situation as every other manager who has come in next. Nothing new...

 

[Nogbad the Bad]

Great comments from MarcoFisher.  Good on you son, you're talking sense.

 

Esmond - you spent a few pages debating the other day with me about signing players aged 21-24.  I argued that this is definitely the market we should be looking at, you were disagreeing.  Now you're saying here that this has always been your opinion.

 

Whichever thread it was the other week (might have been the Experience v Youth one), I said we'd probably need to sign one experienced player and then focus on 21-24 year olds.  You vehemently disagreed.

 

I was one who disagreed with you Harry.

 

As I pointed out on the other thread the majority of City's squad right now - 10 out of 16 if I remember rightly -  already are 24 and under.

 

Three others are just one year older, leaving only 3 players in the whole squad over the age of 25.

 

With most of our older players now gone there's a clear imbalance and it makes the utmost sense to get a few more experienced players in the 25-27 age group in, as well as a couple of genuine leader figures who are perhaps older still.

 

SC has obviously studied the remaining squad, noted it is already a predominantly young one, and has now made clear the type of players he feels are needed to balance and improve it.

 

You know as well as I do that despite what he's said if an exceptional younger player becomes available at the right price - e.g. Freeman, SC will still go for them.

 

But the majority of signings will not be in this age group for one very simple reason - we already have a very high percentage of young players.

 

[Nogbad the Bad]

So despite being on here every minute of the day & taking over an hour to reply you've come back with one player - Leon Clarke.

What annoys me though & what I find naive from SC is him ruling out 21-23 yr olds. There are loads of players in L2 like Curtis Nelson, Jack Redshaw & Scott Bennett who all continue to impress at that level & deserve a chance to step up. All these are experienced for their age, would enhance our squad, are getable, cheap & come with potential re sell value.

I really hope an Academy kid or two comes through next season as Im already beginning to feel for SC's eventual successor filling this squad with 25-27 yr olds.

 

Redshaw's a 23 year old striker and has just 17 league goals to his credit. No doubt SC is aware of him - like all promising lower league players -  but there's nothing about him that indicates he's someone special who City should look to sign.

 

Nelson, at 21 and Bennett, almost 24, are defenders - are they significantly better than our own young defenders in Williams, Cunningham, Moloney and Flint?

 

All 4 have been rated highly enough to be given good contracts at City - and at least 3 of them are highly rated by SC - so rather than look to sign similar young players we really need to got on with playing them.

[CiderHeadDan]

I don't think you can say we need to go just for young players or be looking just for older players. Okay I agree that if Steve Coterill thinks that there is an imbalance in the squad then he should have the authority to change it, however I think it is naive looking for just one or the other age groups to strengthen the side. I don't agree with either the policy of "sign loads of youngsters as they will be the future" or the "we need experience in our team because we only have younger players"

Recruit the right players in the right areas and then there won't be a problem. This will be done by accurate reports on each individual. There's pros and cons for each age (older players more experience but key fitness attributes may have decreased) so an older player may not be better than a younger player but a younger player might not be better than an older player. I'm going on quite a bit in this point so in summary, having a variety of different ages gives you a more versatile range of abilities and attributes which is key for me.

My final point is that I do think we need a bit more experience and leadership in defence especially, but that doesn't mean we need to sign an older player to get that experience. Caulker was a young centre back and he made more of an impact than Nosworthy this year- albeit I think he was a great addition last season. It's all about quality the individual possesses not the age.

[redcherryberry]

Redshaw's a 23 year old striker and has just 17 league goals to his credit. No doubt SC is aware of him - like all promising lower league players - but there's nothing about him that indicates he's someone special who City should look to sign.

Nelson, at 21 and Bennett, almost 24, are defenders - are they significantly better than our own young defenders in Williams, Cunningham, Moloney and Flint?

All 4 have been rated highly enough to be given good contracts at City - and at least 3 of them are highly rated by SC - so rather than look to sign similar young players we really need to got on with playing them.

I've actually saw these players a few times with my own eyes - so I know each one would enhance this squad.

Although Redshaw can play upfront he mainly plays wide right/left or in midfield. Lighting quick & can play. Very highly rated by many. His injury record does worry me though. I would also feel far more at ease with Nelson or Bennett at CB instead of Flint.

[Monkeh]

I've actually saw these players a few times with my own eyes - so I know each one would enhance this squad.

Although Redshaw can play upfront he mainly plays wide right/left or in midfield. Lighting quick & can play. Very highly rated by many. His injury record does worry me though. I would also feel far more at ease with Nelson or Bennett at CB instead of Flint.

I've actually seen Tony dinning on 5 occasions he was good I'm glad we signed him, I also saw Carl Hutchings a few times I'm glad we signed him, I've seen John Akindee a few times he's a good young striker I'm glad we signed him, he's young and hungry and only going to improve isn't he?,

 

No I'll trust the managers judgement thanks

[spudski]

I've actually seen Tony dinning on 5 occasions he was good I'm glad we signed him, I also saw Carl Hutchings a few times I'm glad we signed him, I've seen John Akindee a few times he's a good young striker I'm glad we signed him, he's young and hungry and only going to improve isn't he?,

 

No I'll trust the managers judgement thanks

I always think that's such a ridiculous statement to make when saying you'll 'trust the managers judgement' when it comes to signing players. All those players you mentioned were signed by City managers...and so were numerous others, that failed for us.

 

I believe there are far more people who are intelligent and know football, who don't work as managers, who's judgement I'd take over a lot of Professional managers.

 

It has to be the strangest job in the world...hardly any qualifications, none in accountancy and running a business, and most are given a job managing a Club, because they have played professionally...how does that make them a good manager? One of the weirdest jobs in the world for a very lucky few imho.

[Nogbad the Bad]

I've actually saw these players a few times with my own eyes - so I know each one would enhance this squad.

I would also feel far more at ease with Nelson or Bennett at CB instead of Flint.

 

Would you? On a few views?

 

Isn't Flint in fact exactly the sort of promising, dominating young lower league defender you would have been recommending City sign 18 months ago?

 

We've signed young players in Williams, Pack, Flint, Wynter and Wagstaff, and we've got promising young players of our own in Bryan, Burns, Reid, Morrell, Batten, Lemonheigh -Evans, Bishop, Horgan and Fry etc.

 

As much as I'd like to see City sign the very best of lower league talent, they have to be exactly that, and significantly better than what we've already got coming through.

[spudski]

Would you? On a few views?

 

Isn't Flint in fact exactly the sort of promising, dominating young lower league defender you would have been recommending City sign 18 months ago?

 

We've signed young players in Williams, Pack, Flint, Wynter and Wagstaff, and we've got promising young players of our own in Bryan, Burns, Reid, Morrell, Batten, Lemonheigh -Evans, Bishop, Horgan and Fry etc.

 

As much as I'd like to see City sign the very best of lower league talent, they have to be exactly that, and significantly better than what we've already got coming through.

I agree...we need to bring in the right players who fit right for the Club...

 

This is why I think SC should just keep his mouth shut, and not make statements about players age, marriage, home cooked dinners and nights out in town...he's slowly just giving himself enough rope to eventually hang himself.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

I always think that's such a ridiculous statement to make when saying you'll 'trust the managers judgement' when it comes to signing players. All those players you mentioned were signed by City managers...and so were numerous others, that failed for us.

 

I believe there are far more people who are intelligent and know football, who don't work as managers, who's judgement I'd take over a lot of Professional managers.

 

It has to be the strangest job in the world...hardly any qualifications, none in accountancy and running a business, and most are given a job managing a Club, because they have played professionally...how does that make them a good manager? One of the weirdest jobs in the world for a very lucky few imho.

 

Strangely Monkeh has a point Dinning came on loan and was impressive, but retired before the ink was dry on his contract, Hutchings had played against us several times and always looked impressive and just didn't make it with us that happens in football at every single level and as for Akinde I would have thought that you in particular would have applauded the fact that the club tried something significantly different in signing a player from a league you and Mr Memory AKA Harry say is full of riches, again sadly it never worked out.

 

For a manager who was the most successful in history SAF wasted one hell of a lot of money on players who were pants, it's the nature of the beast.

 

i'll leave the last sentence because I wouldn't know where to even start.

[Monkeh]

Strangely Monkeh has a point Dinning came on loan and was impressive, but retired before the ink was dry on his contract, Hutchings had played against us several times and always looked impressive and just didn't make it with us that happens in football at every single level and as for Akinde I would have thought that you in particular would have applauded the fact that the club tried something significantly different in signing a player from a league you and Mr Memory AKA Harry say is full of riches, again sadly it never worked out.

 

For a manager who was the most successful in history SAF wasted one hell of a lot of money on players who were pants, it's the nature of the beast.

 

i'll leave the last sentence because I wouldn't know where to even start.

football management is so easy isn't I mean you've got no pressure job security no fan base activlly trying to undermind you, never held accountable for poor performances.......oh wait thats the players

[Nogbad the Bad]

 

This is why I think SC should just keep his mouth shut, and not make statements about players age, marriage, home cooked dinners and nights out in town...he's slowly just giving himself enough rope to eventually hang himself.

Hang himself?  What an ironic choice of words.

 

He just wants to make sure he avoids allowing a repetition of the formation of the destructive, selfish, disloyal, social cliques in the dressing room that hung previous managers out to dry when it suited them, or their self-centred culture was under threat.

 

Very wise words yet again from Cotterill.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

I agree...we need to bring in the right players who fit right for the Club...

 

This is why I think SC should just keep his mouth shut, and not make statements about players age, marriage, home cooked dinners and nights out in town...he's slowly just giving himself enough rope to eventually hang himself.

 

He is in very good company if true my friend, comprende?.

[Monkeh]

Hang himself?  What an ironic choice of words.

 

He just wants to make sure he avoids allowing a repetition of the formation of the destructive, selfish, disloyal, social cliques in the dressing room that hung previous managers out to dry when it suited them, or their self-centred culture was under threat.

 

Very wise words yet again from Cotterill.

Next he will be telling us agents aren't scum..........

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Eeh gad usual people using the same old discussions to bash the board or transfer policy or the Pilau's

 

Shall we see what happens first before commenting on bluster and hot air. This would mean we would have to sign someone first..

 

Transfermarkt has the squads age as being 24.6 with all the older players and loans still here and I think around 23 without them

 

Hardly the most ageist of squads is it? Harry is becoming a bit like an English version of the Scottish chap whose name I forget, who said every Scottish player, ever would be brilliant, irrespective

 

The Scottish guy had a better memory though.

[Monkeh]

Eeh gad usual people using the same old discussions to bash the board or transfer policy or the Pilau's

 

Shall we see what happens first before commenting on bluster and hot air. This would mean we would have to sign someone first..

 

Transfermarkt has the squads age as being 24.6 with all the older players and loans still here and I think around 23 without them

 

Hardly the most ageist of squads is it? Harry is becoming a bit like an English version of the Scottish chap whose name I forget, who said every Scottish player, ever would be brilliant, irrespective

Jock

[spudski]

[Nogbad the Bad]

[Monkeh]

Just because he doesn't say exactly what you'd like him to say doesn't mean he's talking bollox.

 

City have history of an underperfoming dressing room which has seen off several managers.

 

Cotterill's determined that will not be repeated while he's in charge.

 

As I said, he's absolutely right, and the bollox is coming from you, mate.

Its bollox as it doesn't fit in with his agenda, If he know how football clubs should be run why isn't he a consultant

[spudski]

Its bollox as it doesn't fit in with his agenda, If he know how football clubs should be run why isn't he a consultant

How do you not no I'm not involved in Pro football?

 

 

Just because he doesn't say exactly what you'd like him to say doesn't mean he's talking bollox.

 

City have history of an underperfoming dressing room which has seen off several managers.

 

Cotterill's determined that will not be repeated while he's in charge.

 

As I said, he's absolutely right, and the bollox is coming from you, mate.

No agenda mate... most managers talk bollox...it's for the media to sell stories and get sound bites...it's mostly waffle.

 

I'd just rather the manager kept his mouth shut...whoever it is...when it comes to signings...

 

I'd much rather be supporting a Club where the Board and owner did the talking...making the decisions, and direction our Club are going...not a manager who is most likely going to be sacked in the next few years...( based on averages ).

 

They expect us to support the Club and buy season tickets...yet we have very little idea of what is going on their.

 

One minute the board are coming up with the 'five pillars' with their big announcement...the next a manager one year down the line, is telling us 'the board have got used to bringing in older players and doing it his way'...

 

I have no problem with that...

 

But I do have a problem with the lack of communication to it's supporters,by the board, when it comes to such things.

Who is running the joint?

 

No problem with SC...he's doing what most managers would do...

 

It's the Board that get my goat...faceless...lack of communication with their fans... they just whimper along.

At least when SL was here...for all his mistakes...he was a face of the Club and spoke.. this lot are an embarrassment.

[Monkeh]

Er, as per average age of the squad, we'd have to sign 6 plus 30 year olds to raise the average excessively, from what it is, I cant believe how, blinkered you are over this. Its a one track mind and a refusal to consider anything else.

 

Yet you still wanna hammer the club over already having a young squad and acting like the dream has died. Even SO'D bought in older players.. Good grief

So'd only brought in Jet and williams the others that haven't worked out (Wynter Parish Harwood) were brought in by Burt......don't you know anything Ralph........

[Esmond Million's Bung]

[timothy bird]

yup, in the same way that some people claim that nosworthy and wade Elliot were signed by sc while el abd and Barnett were signed by Burt ! theirs a lot of closed minds from both sides of yet another futile argument dominated by the usual people who think that they are the only ones who are right ,and are so cut off from reality that they still do not realise that their opinions do no matter a jot, The manager will sign who he chooses to sign and the board will continue to pursue what ever policys suit their agenda at any given time, unbelievable as some of you itk football experts May find it your opinions do not count, so yet again your just going round and round in circles scoring petty points off each other like 10 year old kids!

[Monkeh]

Ah that's right selectivism at its finest . I remember now

just to prove points thats all,

Name me one manager that never makes a bad signing........

For every Ruud Van Nistelrooy theres a Sebastion Veron,

Every single club makes a bad signing it happens get over it, Remember Steve Jones awful signing who went away from the club and came back a different player, Nothing to say El Abd (whom seems to be the current focus point) can't come back and have a Shaun Tayloresc (a over the hill player at 32 when we signed him) season