Becky Watts murder trial...

[Dollymarie]

The serious case review that should follow will be interesting for other reasons relating to Beckys death. 

[cottsciderarmy]

He has claimed that he has mental health issues, so he'll be off to Broadmoor so will be in a cell to himself and get treated for mental heath.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, cottsciderarmy said:

He has claimed that he has mental health issues, so he'll be off to Broadmoor so will be in a cell to himself and get treated for mental heath.

He would have been medically examined prior and deemed fit to stand. My friends murderer had severe schizophrenia and therefore pleaded guilty on grounds of disminished responsibility. I've seen nothing to suggest that happening in this case. If he wanted to go to Broadmoor it would actually backfire as you go there for 'treatment' and if you ever are found to be mentally stable/cured so to speak them in most instances you go to a normal jail and start your jail sentence. So long term you end up inside longer.  Or you kill yourselves in broadmoor like my friends murderer did.. 

[northsomersetred]

Sentencing guidelines taken from CPS website

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_-_mandatory_life_sentences_in_murder_cases/

Starting Points

Schedule 21 sets out the basic starting points.

a) For adults aged 21 years old and over there are 4 starting points:

• a whole life order; 
• 30 years; 
• 25 years (effective from 2 March 2010); and 
• 15 years.

b) For 18 - 20 year olds there are three starting points:

• 30 years;
• 25 years (effective from 2 March 2010); and 
• 15 years.

c) For youths there is one 12-year starting point.

Criminal Justice Act 2003 (Mandatory Life Sentence: Determination of Minimum Term) Order 2010 (SI 2010/192) inserted a new paragraph into Schedule 21 which represents another "general principle" (involving the use of a knife) to which the court must have regard when making the determination.

R v Kelly (Marion) [2011] EWCA Crim 1462 held that judges should avoid a compartmentalised and mechanical approach to the provisions of Schedule 21. Judges should "have regard" to the principles set out in Schedule 21 but not follow it rigidly.

From 3 December 2012, section 65 (9) of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 amends Schedule 21 paragraph 5(2)(g) by providing for a starting point of 30 years for the minimum term for a life sentence for murder aggravated on the grounds of the victim's disability or transgender identity.

Offenders aged 21 years or over

Where the offender is 21 or over at the time of the offence and the court takes the view that the murder is so grave that the offender should spend the rest of their life in prison, a 'whole life order' is the appropriate starting point. The early release provisions in section 28 of the Crime (Sentences) Act 1997 will then not apply. Such an order should only be specified where the court considers that the seriousness of the offence is exceptionally high. Such cases include:

a) the murder of two or more persons where each murder involves a substantial degree of premeditation, the abduction of the victim, or sexual or sadistic conduct; 
b) the murder of a child if involving the abduction of the child or sexual or sadistic motivation; 
c) a murder done for the purpose of advancing a political, religious or ideological cause; or 
d) a murder by an offender previously convicted of murder.

Where the offence is not so serious as to warrant a whole life order but the seriousness of the offence is particularly high the appropriate starting point is 30 years. The following examples are given:

a) the murder of a police or prison officer in the course of his duty; 
b) a murder involving the use of a firearm or explosive; 
c) a murder done for gain (in the course of a robbery or burglary, or done for payment); 
d) a murder intended to obstruct or interfere with the course of justice; 
e) a murder involving sexual or sadistic conduct; 
f) the murder of two or more persons; or 
g) a murder that is racially or religiously aggravated or aggravated by sexual orientation.

Where the offender the offender took a knife or other weapon to the scene intending to (a) commit any offence, or (b) have it available to use as a weapon, and used that knife or other weapon in committing the murder the normal starting point is 25 years. This increased minimum term does not apply in relation to a life sentence imposed for an offence of murder committed before 2 March 2010.

For all other offences the appropriate starting point is 15 years.

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Offenders 18 - 20 years old

Where the offender commits a murder that is so serious that it would require a whole life order if committed by an offender aged 21 or over, the appropriate starting point will be 30 years.

As in the case of adults (see above) where the offence is not so serious as to warrant a whole life order, but the seriousness of the offence is particularly high, the appropriate starting point is 30 years.

Similarly, for murders committed after 2 March 2010, involving the use of a knife or other weapon in the circumstances set out above, the appropriate starting point is 25 years.

For all other offences the appropriate starting point is 15 years.

Offenders under 18 years old

For an offender who is a youth when they committed the offence the appropriate starting point is 12 years detention at Her Majesty's pleasure.

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Aggravating and Mitigating Factors

Having set a starting point the court must take into account any aggravating or mitigating factors, to the extent that it has not allowed for them in its choice of starting point (paragraph 8, Schedule 21).

Under paragraph 9, detailed consideration of aggravating or mitigating factors may result in a minimum term of any length (whatever the starting point) or in the making of a whole life order.

Aggravating factors that may be relevant include:

a) a significant degree of planning or premeditation; 
b) the victim was vulnerable because of age or disability; 
c) mental or physical suffering inflicted on the victim before death; 
d) the abuse of a position of trust; 
e) the use of duress or threats against another person to facilitate the commission of the offence; 
f) the victim was providing a public service or performing a public duty; and 
g) concealment, destruction or dismemberment of the body.

Mitigating factors include:

a) an intention to cause serious bodily harm rather than kill; 
b) lack of premeditation; 
c) the offender suffers from a mental disorder or disability (not falling within section 2(1) of the Homicide Act 1957) which lowered their degree of culpability; 
d) the offender was provoked in a way not amounting to a defence of provocation; 
e) the offender acted to any extent in self-defence; 
f) a belief by the offender that the murder was an act of mercy;  
g) the age of the offender.

The court should also consider any previous convictions, whether the offence was committed on bail and if the offender pleaded guilty.

The court should take into account any period the offender has spent on remand in connection with the offence or a related offence. The offender will get no credit for time served on remand unless it is taken into account when setting the minimum term. The court should normally subtract the time for which the offender was remanded from the punitive period it would otherwise impose in order to reach the minimum term.

[Dollymarie]

1 minute ago, ziderheadarmy said:

Explain what you mean by this please ? 

Becky had had involvement with children's services before she died. There is very likely going to be an investigation now criminal proceedings have finished as to whether this could have been prevented. That's all I can say at this stage. 

[Dollymarie]

1 minute ago, ziderheadarmy said:

Were these "issues" connected to her step brother ?

Not that I am aware of no. 

 

[Dollymarie]

5 minutes ago, ziderheadarmy said:

Ok i dont want to put you in a akward position but that does sound interesting. I have found the whole case interesting and incredibly sad.

As I said, hopefully more information will be released once the serious case review is concluded. That is some while away though. 

[RedM]

3 hours ago, Lew-T said:

I'd be very surprised if it wasn't a life sentence for Matthews. As for Hoare, I reckon around 10 years!

RIP Becky and thoughts go out to her family.

That's what my legal source is thinking. She will get 10 years and be out in less than 5 as the time spent on remand counts towards the sentence doesn't it. 

 I think as he went equipped with a (stun)gun that starts automatically at a high tarriff, as it should. 

The fact that neither has shown any remorse and also made the family go through the harrowing court case won't be lost on the Judge either though.

 

[PHILINFRANCE]

One thing (or one of many) that intrigues me about this case, SH was apparently pregnant with twins at the time of the murder in February 2015, i.e. some 9 months ago.

What has happened?

Has she given birth and, if so, why has this not been mentioned?

 

[RedM]

7 hours ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

One thing (or one of many) that intrigues me about this case, SH was apparently pregnant with twins at the time of the murder in February 2015, i.e. some 9 months ago.

What has happened?

Has she given birth and, if so, why has this not been mentioned?

 

I guess she has given birth whilst on remand and the babies have been placed into care and now will be adopted. This hasn't been revealed to protect their identities. I think if she had lost the babies through miscarriage her defence would have used this to try to gain some sympathy from the jury.

This is pure speculation by me from what I know from similar cases. I do know mothers who have given birth whilst in prison, (professional knowledge not personal friendships!). Some prisons have a mother and baby unit which allows the prisioner and her baby to spend the 18 months I think,together. After this the child is placed with relatives or in care. I believe this is usually only for 'minor' crimes where they would both be reunitedsoon though. If someone, mothers only i think, is sent to prison with a child under 18 months they can ask for the child to come into prison with them too. Once the child reaches 18 months it has to be cared for outside.

[Dollymarie]

I believe the pregnancy did not continue. I don't know if that was due to a miscarriage or an abortion. This article mentions it but says she is no longer pregnant. 

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3314269/Passed-six-foster-families-falling-spell-Matthews-aged-just-14-Shauna-Hoare-pregnant-twins-killer.html

[RedM]

That was my initial thoughts too Dolly, but my gut feeling is she has given birth. Just a hunch. I guess we will never know unless some tabloid takes her story on at a later date. 

[PHILINFRANCE]

I have just read the DM article and, out of curiosity, skimmed through a few other articles on line, including one in the Sun, Yes, I know.

Interestingly, the Sun article quotes one of SH's friends as saying she, SH, was a fantasist and, as well as claiming she had cancer, lied about being pregnant.

Perhaps SH never was pregnant with twins after all.

[northsomersetred]

2 hours ago, RedM said:

I guess she has given birth whilst on remand and the babies have been placed into care and now will be adopted. This hasn't been revealed to protect their identities. I think if she had lost the babies through miscarriage her defence would have used this to try to gain some sympathy from the jury.

This is pure speculation by me from what I know from similar cases. I do know mothers who have given birth whilst in prison, (professional knowledge not personal friendships!). Some prisons have a mother and baby unit which allows the prisioner and her baby to spend the 18 months I think,together. After this the child is placed with relatives or in care. I believe this is usually only for 'minor' crimes where they would both be reunitedsoon though. If someone, mothers only i think, is sent to prison with a child under 18 months they can ask for the child to come into prison with them too. Once the child reaches 18 months it has to be cared for outside.

If she has given birth whilst in custody the child/ren will not automatically be taken into care and then adopted

[BigTone]

Lets hope Matthews gets what he deserves and is put into the mainstream population without any protection. I give him one month until he is released in a wooden box

[handsofclay]

1 hour ago, BigTone said:

Lets hope Matthews gets what he deserves and is put into the mainstream population without any protection. I give him one month until he is released in a wooden box

To really get what he deserves he would be released in several boxes!

[RedM]

2 hours ago, northsomersetred said:

If she has given birth whilst in custody the child/ren will not automatically be taken into care and then adopted

Not not automatically, likely. Remember she was innocent in the eyes of the law until yesterday, and sentencing hasn't been given yet. It's all hypothetical anyway, but given her lack of a stable background and her partner being away for quite a while and obviously not suitable, she may not have any suitable family members for them to be placed with. Long term foster care is a option in a case like this as an alternative?  I have had experience of 3 murderers who have come out of prison and have started relationships with people with children/had children, but these were men.

Again hypothetically speaking it would be a brave Social Services Department who placed any child back in her care, in my opinion. Hence why I would see adoption as the likely option.

[northsomersetred]

1 minute ago, RedM said:

Not not automatically, likely. Remember she was innocent in the eyes of the law until yesterday, and sentencing hasn't been given yet. It's all hypothetical anyway, but given her lack of a stable background and her partner being away for quite a while and obviously not suitable, she may not have any suitable family members for them to be placed with. Long term foster care is a option in a case like this as an alternative?  I have had experience of 3 murderers who have come out of prison and have started relationships with people with children/had children, but these were men.

Again hypothetically speaking it would be a brave Social Services Department who placed any child back in her care, in my opinion. Hence why I would see adoption as the likely option.

It appeared the way you posted that it would happen automatically which it does not. Did Mary Bell have her child taken away?

[RedM]

5 minutes ago, northsomersetred said:

It appeared the way you posted that it would happen automatically which it does not. Did Mary Bell have her child taken away?

I'm sorry that you read it like that. 

I'm not very familiar with the Mary Bell case, wasn't she a child who killed another/ others? A bit before my time and Social Services has changed quite a lot since then. 

[BigTone]

4 hours ago, handsofclay1909 said:

To really get what he deserves he would be released in several boxes!

good point

[exAtyeoMax]

On 11/3/2015, 2:24:08, WhistleHappy said:

Terrible awful disgusting and shocking crime, somehow made worse as its happened on our doorsteps ... R I P Becky.

Does anyone else think the amount of police evidence released to the media during the case has been a little strange? ... Photos, Videos of custody interviews and crime scenes pre-verdicts while case is still underway? ... Can't recall any previous cases where so much has been made public so soon -within hours of it being presented in the trial and before any verdicts reached.

(No doubt regarding guilt in my mind but - if an accused defendant (not necessarily in this case but generally) was to eventually be found not-guilty after police interviews etc were released so openly and publically would the 'innocent' defendant have a case regarding invasion of human rights/privacy etc ? ....) Just seems a little odd to me.

 

 

Yes found this a bit disturbing. Even if he had admitted it I find it a little strange to see his, and her police interviews on BEP/BBC. I've found the BEP's extensive coverage a bit distasteful to be honest. 

I did think that Matthews was too eager in his interview with the Police to try to distance Hoare from any involvement. 

The Daily Mail report does seem inaccurate on certain details. The Grange School is not in Keynsham for a start, so how much more have they got wrong/made up?

A truly hideous crime. Poor little girl. What were they thinking?

[cider head]

With the way this has been in the public eye and looking at the other guilty charges, NM with murder, kidnap and preventing the girls proper burial I would be surprised if that is not life with no parole and life meaning life her majesty's pleasure. With the girl I would say 8 to 14 years for manslaughter, kidnap and preventing a burial.

[RedM]

He's in the dock right now. There is currently legal arguments  being sorted about the 2 who assisted the offender. I was told to expect the sentencing at 2pm, looks like it might be sooner.

[RedM]

The assisting offender sentences have been adjourned until February

[cider head]

Personally I would like to see the electric chair but hey ho 

[RedM]

No that's too easy @cider head solitary confinement in total darkness and silence, bread and water for the rest of his days in a 6x6 cell.  That should give him time enough to contemplate his acts.

[RedM]

Victim impact statements are being read on behalf of the family at the mo

[cider head]

4 minutes ago, RedM said:

No that's too easy @cider head solitary confinement in total darkness and silence, bread and water for the rest of his days in a 6x6 cell.  That should give him time enough to contemplate his acts.

Use the prick for testing instead of animals. I hate the idea of keeping bang to rights murderers with no chance of ever seeing freedom at the tax payers expense when it's badly needed of more worthy causes. This case there is no doubt and I would support the death penalty on NM for this.

[RedM]

Whole life tarrif being discussed..but his lawyer arguing his crime doesn't meet the level required

apparently there's only 8 people in the country on this level, excluding multiple murderers

[cider head]

Stick him in Broadmoor with the duties of cleaning Charles bronsons cell, and see if he does a life term and not the one given by the court