Paris attacks news coverage (MERGED)

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Perhaps he is now on the run from Isis as well?.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/paris-attacks-no-assault-weapons-found-in-saint-denis-raid-after-police-report-heavy-fire-a6745686.html

[The dastardly red]

On 20 November 2015 12:52:09, Collis1 said:

Are you a camel?

You can call me 'Collis' by the way.  The '1' is only there for administration purposes.

You're collis1 don't try to say you aren't

[Portland Bill]

So here we go again, Turkey shoot down a Russian jet fighter in Syria!!! , it seems quite probable that one Russian pilot is now ( possibly) in the hands of those that the Russians were bombing. Which opens up another massive situation.

Turkey a member of NATO has shot down a Russian plane which ( the Russians say) was flying over Syria, and the pilot is now possibly in the hands of ISIS. What could possibly go more wrong!. The first time since the 1950's that a NATO country has shot down a Russian/Soviet plane.

On a separate note.

Im struggling to comprehend what's the situation with us and the Russians. A couple of years ago they invaded Crimea and parts of eastern Ukraine.We have weekly reports ( our government feeding the media! ) of Russian planes buzzing UK airspace and Russian nuclear subs hanging around the UK coast.

But.... Cameron seems more than happy to let Russia do whatever they want and wherever they want to, especially in Syria and Iraq.

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

Russia have always flown in international air space close to the UK, its just the media seek to make a big deal of it when it chooses.. like now.

It'll be interesting to see what NATO does next about this Turkish/Russian situation. Putin won't take this one on the chin easily.

[Red-Robbo]

1 hour ago, Tomarse said:

Russia have always flown in international air space close to the UK, its just the media seek to make a big deal of it when it chooses.. like now.

It'll be interesting to see what NATO does next about this Turkish/Russian situation. Putin won't take this one on the chin easily.

At the same time, some of his biggest regional allies - like Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan are also within the Turkish zone of influence. Oh, and Turkey is a Nato country.

Tracking data from an international source should be able to confirm the plane's position when hit.

The Turks have been unhappy that many of Russia's bombing raids have been carried out on Syrian Turkmen areas controlled by secular rebel militia, so this may be their OTT response to that.

Despite the "horray for Russia, standing up to ISIS" posts by some on here, less than 10% of the Ruskies' bombs have landed on IS positions, and many more have landed on areas controlled by enemies of IS.

[Kid in the Riot]

8 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

At the same time, some of his biggest regional allies - like Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan are also within the Turkish zone of influence. Oh, and Turkey is a Nato country.

Tracking data from an international source should be able to confirm the plane's position when hit.

The Turks have been unhappy that many of Russia's bombing raids have been carried out on Syrian Turkmen areas controlled by secular rebel militia, so this may be their OTT response to that.

Despite the "horray for Russia, standing up to ISIS" posts by some on here, less than 10% of the Ruskies' bombs have landed on IS positions, and many more have landed on areas controlled by enemies of IS.

Sounds like the Russian plane was definitely in Turkish airspace and was warned 10 times to leave, but didn't and so was shot at.

[Lanterne Rouge]

2 hours ago, Tomarse said:

Russia have always flown in international air space close to the UK, its just the media seek to make a big deal of it when it chooses.. like now.

It'll be interesting to see what NATO does next about this Turkish/Russian situation. Putin won't take this one on the chin easily.

Depends a lot on whether ISIS execute the pilot if they do have him. They must know doing that would bring down a shitload of grief on them but do they care? If they had any sense at all they`d be looking to divide and conquer and would release him unharmed but they honestly seem to believe they`re invincible.

[IAmNick]

Two countries both intentionally yet indirectly supporting ISIS at loggerheads now, it's all getting a bit comical really

[Red-Robbo]

7 minutes ago, Red Right Hand said:

Depends a lot on whether ISIS execute the pilot if they do have him. They must know doing that would bring down a shitload of grief on them but do they care? If they had any sense at all they`d be looking to divide and conquer and would release him unharmed but they honestly seem to believe they`re invincible.

Assuming either crew member survived, and assuming they are held by IS (the footage taken of gunman around an apparently dead Russian was not taken by IS but by a rival group) then they would have no.compunction in executing a representative of an atheist state involved in bombing raids helping to prop up the Shia "heretic" dictator Assad.

[Portland Bill]

I took this off a news app, it just goes to show how fooced up the whole situation is 

 

A Russian fighter bomber shot down by a NATO member. Its crew believed to be dead and their bodies held by rebels backed by Western allies.

This is such a recipe for war that it won't be allowed to happen.

Not, that is, if sense prevails in a region where no sense has prevailed for too long.

A landscape in which enemies find themselves on the same side - and friends stab each other in the back.

Russia insists its Su-24 "Fencer" was shot down in Syrian airspace where it was conducting raids against "terrorists".

Turkey says the warplane was downed by its F16 fighters after ignoring demands to leave its airspace and 10 warnings given over five minutes.

:: Live Updates: Russian Jet Shot Down By Turkey

It followed demands from the Turks made the previous day that Russia stop bombing militia from the Turkman Syrian minority who are part of a broad-based alliance fighting the regime of Bashar al Assad.

Video images have been released showing the air crew dead or badly injured - and in the hands of the Free Syrian Army.

This is an organisation that is backed, funded, trained and sometimes armed by Turkey, the United States and Britain.

Russia will surely seek retribution, especially if it ever emerges that the pilot and navigator parachuted to earth alive and were then murdered.

The Kremlin has been trying to forge a formal alliance to fight so-called Islamic State and all other rebel groups with the American-led coalition already bombing IS.

Over the last week the two blocs have stepped up their attacks on IS infrastructure targeting its oil industry which generated $2m (£1.3m) a day to fund the death cult.

But Russia has also been bombing NATO's rebel Syrian allies in the west of the country while Washington remains bitterly opposed to Vladimir Putin's campaign to keep the Damascus regime in place.

Mr Putin has called the downing of the jet a "stab in the back".

But Turkey has been arguing for a no-fly zone over all of the country to keep Mr Assad's aircraft out of the skies and repeatedly warned Moscow that it risked losing aircraft if they continued to violate its airspace.

Mr Putin may be wrong about Turkey's back stabbing here.

But he'd be forgiven for stating what is obvious to supporters of the Kurds if he was to argue that Ankara is stabbing the coalition in the back in the east of Syria and in northern Iraq.

Kurds from the armed wing of the Kurdish Workers’ Party are in the forefront of an operation that has brought them within sight, if not range of Raqqa, the IS 'capital'.

Alongside Kurds from Iraq and some Arab volunteers backed by the West, they have proven to be the only reliable force fighting for the coalition on the ground against IS.

But back in their rear areas they are being shelled and bombed by Turkey.

Simply put, a NATO member is bombing NATO allies who are fighting Islamic State with close air support from (among others) NATO partners.

Proving a point that in the Middle East an enemy’s enemy is not always a friend.

But neither Turkey nor Russia can afford an escalation of the incident on the border.

That would extend the conflict beyond the borders of Syria and Iraq.

They may not be friends but they can't afford to become enemies.

 

[Lanterne Rouge]

Just goes on getting worse and worse every day. I remember all the sabre rattling on a seemingly daily basis during the Cold War but I don`t think I`ve ever been as worried about the world as I am now.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

5 hours ago, Tomarse said:

Russia have always flown in international air space close to the UK, its just the media seek to make a big deal of it when it chooses.. like now.

It'll be interesting to see what NATO does next about this Turkish/Russian situation. Putin won't take this one on the chin easily.

I worked with guy had been an officer on Submarines, he told me that UK navy subs and Russian subs are always playing tag and chasing each other, trying to force the other to make a dangerous manoeuvre.

[richwwtk]

I foolishly pressed play on that video, then about 5 seconds in it dawned on me that this was from a Russian news source and therefore not worth listening to for a reasoned argument. I stopped it at that point.

[Kid in the Riot]

3 hours ago, SX225 said:

But Mr Putin, clearly angry, responded that the Russian jet had never violated Turkish airspace and was shot down over Syria. Speaking in Sochi, he called the downing of the plane a "stab in the back delivered by the accomplices of terrorists," warning that it would have "serious consequences for Russian-Turkish relations."

Read more: http://www.afr.com/news/world/turkeyrussia-clash-escalates-syria-crisis-20151125-gl7r4c#ixzz3sUEkut00

According to Turkey both Russian jets violated Turkish airspace for 17 seconds  - and one of two rescue Helicopters were shot down as well, killing all on board. First time NATO has downed a Russian Fighter for 50 years apparently.

I don't think Mr P is too happy.

S hits just got real y'all...........
 

The article says 'according to ONE diplomat' not 'Turkey'.

Article also says this:

Quote

Turkey wants Mr Assad gone, and has allowed its border with Syria to be an easy crossing point for Syrian rebels, including those the West regards as terrorists or radical Islamists; Russia wants to prop up Mr Assad and his government. While Moscow says it is attacking the Islamic State, for the most part Russian planes and troops have been attacking the Syrian rebels, some of whom are supported by the United States and the West, who most threaten Assad's rule.

More lies from Putin then...

[IAmNick]

That's awfully generous of the Russians, what upstanding guys.

[IAmNick]

8 hours ago, Big Brother said:

 

A few thoughts to consider 

 

 

You may be interested in this as well: https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence/europe-is-harbouring-the-islamic-state-s-backers-d24db3a24a40#.i20yzfwra

A decent article and broadly true from what I've read, along with highlighting a few things (such as the proposed gas pipelines) that I didn't know about. We all seem pretty guilty to be honest, and this stuff just highlights the total clusterf*ck and amount of behind the scenes stuff we don't even know about being paid for in the lives of the poor b*astards who live there.

[Red-Robbo]

4 hours ago, Big Brother said:

You're looking at this from a Western perspective.  Consider:

1.

Every person that has taken-up arms against Assad is a terrorist against the Syrian state, just as members of the IRA were terrorists against the UK (remember the IRA?  'Just cause?' - maybe, but **** them while they were blowing-up English cities and killing British troops).  

2.

Russia is assisting Syria to reclaim its sovereign territory from a collection of invading armies, armed, trained and funded by countries that want Syria to fall. There are no 'slightly less evil' soldiers when your country is under attack.

3.

My understanding is that Russia is acting in partnership with and under the auspices of Syrian military high command, and if so, it's the Syrian military's priorities that matter, not yours and especially not the USA's or Israel's.  

Re: point 1: An assinine comparison. The British state is a constitutional democracy and people, including Catholics in Northern Ireland, had the right to vote for whatever political parties they like. Syria is a military dictatorship where power is concentrated in the hands of one religious minority and enforced with great brutality by a zealous.secret police. Before the Civil War broke out there were mass demonstrations with hundreds of thousands of protesters on the street. Crunch the numbers from any non-Russian or Assad regime source and you'll find that the majority of the Syrian population meet your "traitors to the state" definition. 

2: The so-called "invading armies" are overwhelmingly made up of Syrian people who don't seem to share your view of this lovely benign Bashar Al-Assad. It's the Russians who are the outsiders occupying Syrian territory. 

3: Correct. It is the priorities of the.dictator and his Moscow patrons. The calculation is destroy the moderate opposition and leave only the choice of IS or Assad. He therefore will emerge as.the lesser of two evils. This is why so little Russian effort has been expended on hitting the rapist head-choppers of IS. 

 

[Portland Bill]

4 hours ago, Big Brother said:

You're looking at this from a Western perspective.  Consider:

1.

Every person that has taken-up arms against Assad is a terrorist against the Syrian state, just as members of the IRA were terrorists against the UK (remember the IRA?  'Just cause?' - maybe, but **** them while they were blowing-up English cities and killing British troops).  

2.

Russia is assisting Syria to reclaim its sovereign territory from a collection of invading armies, armed, trained and funded by countries that want Syria to fall. There are no 'slightly less evil' soldiers when your country is under attack.

3.

My understanding is that Russia is acting in partnership with and under the auspices of Syrian military high command, and if so, it's the Syrian military's priorities that matter, not yours and especially not the USA's or Israel's.  

You will be telling us that Assad was elected by the Syrian people next!

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Now forgive if I am wrong but the dear old Guardian report in July that evidence had been seized by American special forces during a raid, that evidence had been found of a direct link between our NATO allies Turkey and Isis over funding from oil sales?.

 

[Red-Robbo]

11 hours ago, Big Brother said:

 

As you know I wasn't saying Syria is the UK, just that the IRA were terrorists and so are the armies of Syrians that are fighting against Assad. Again, you can't look at this situation from a Western perspective - Assad's Syria wasn't that bad compared with other countries in that region.  It probably needs a brutal dictatorship to keep everything together (similar to Russia), and as far as I know people of different religions lived relatively peacefully with each other, despite the Alawite domination.  As for the protests - well no doubt you'll read the situation differently, but as I remember it two things were happening: 1. Assad had agreed to make changes but was balancing a number of different interests and 2. there were agitators in those demos that had fired on the police.

I didn't say Assad was either 'lovely' or 'benign', those are your words.  I don't agree though that forming armies, funded etc by the USA / Israel and then attacking your own country is right. They are terrorists.  From what I've read there are at least 20,000 foreign fighters in ISIS, technically they are mercenaries as they are being paid to fight.

I truly hope Russia helps Syria reclaim its territory and destroy as many Islamists as possible, whatever green or black banner they are fighting under. Further I hope this strengthens Russia influence in the region: Having at least one brake on the USA can only be a good thing, unless you're of the Neocon persuasion.

 

You Implicitly compared the British state to the Assad regime and there is no point of comparison. 

Now I think.David Cameron is a.dickwad,  but I do concede he has legitimacy. Millions of people voted for him.

Bashar Al-Assad is."president of Syria" because his dad, an.Army commander, seized.control of the country, killed lots of people and then maintained power by - among other things - carting people off to dungeons to have electrodes attached to their gonads if they disagreed with him.

When Bashar's elder brother died he became unelected heir apparent - dictator-in-waiting.

So, the state has no legitimacy. At the most, you could say terrorists are fighting a terrorist state - one that used terror and repression to keep people cowed.

Why do you think Assad has lost control of such a.lot of the country?  If it "wasn't that bad" really - an assessment you've made to fit your Russia Today analysis rather than one based on knowledge or actual experience - why have so many Syrians taken up arms against the tyrant?  The US and Israel (no proof whatsoever of the latter"s involvement by the way) cannot make people rebel if they think things aren't "too bad". Perhaps Sunni Syrians don't share your view that they need a brutal dictatorship. Incidentally Saudi, Qatar, Turkey and captured Syrian Army and Iraqi weapons ate the main source of the rebels weapons. In fact, many of those fighting Assad are disillusioned soldiers from his Army.They didn't need to be told what to do by the US. 

Your post also ignores the fact that the vast majority of Russian air strikes are not against IS, just as the Assad regime has generally avoided fighting IS. 

Most IS territory in Syria has been captured from rival rebel groups.

Assad, as I've noted, wants to crush ghe rest of the opposition but not IS. He wants to be seen, and is to a degree succeeding,  as the lesser of two evils. The Russians are helping their client do that. No different to the way the US propped up dictators in Latin America in the past. Assad does not want a secular opposition like the FSA to exist as it does offer a genuine choice of direction for Syrians. Guess who most of the Russians bombs have hit!

 

 

[Red-Robbo]

11 hours ago, Big Brother said:

The Guardian reported in 2012 that most Syrians supported Assad:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jan/17/syrians-support-assad-western-propaganda

That isn't the Guardian reporting,  it's some bloke's blog post in the Comment Is Free section. A sort of Speakers Corner in the paper, where you can make assertions that would not meet the paper's normal criterion for objectivity.

As this poll was conducted after the civil war had broken out and much of the country was too dangerous to travel to, you have to question how reflective it could ever be.

The stark fact is that millions of Syrians have taken up arms against Assad and risked their lives to try to topple his regime. Millions more have fled and say they would never consider going back until Assad was gone. 

[Barrs Court Red]

Millions of Syrians haven't taken up arms. That's the sort of hyperbol that I'd expect from rags like the mirror.

[Red-Robbo]

2 minutes ago, Barrs Court Red said:

Millions of Syrians haven't taken up arms. That's the sort of hyperbol that I'd expect from rags like the mirror.

Do you know anything about it?

Add up the estimates of all rebel groups. There are many, many different anti-Assad groups, counting ethnic based self-protection militias.

The scale of the conflict is vast. And there are 17 million Syrians. Around 7 million of them outside the country since the fighting began.

[Portland Bill]

11 hours ago, Big Brother said:

The Guardian reported in 2012 that most Syrians supported Assad:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jan/17/syrians-support-assad-western-propaganda

Perhaps he should have called an election then!

[Barrs Court Red]

Go on then, back up your preposterous statement with facts.

Heres a helping hand, the 4 biggest non state actors in YPG, ISIS, Nursra and FSA don't have a combined total of over 500k Syrians and never have. 

Your claiming that this conflict is bigger than The Korean War. 

 

[Portland Bill]

I don't know if anyone else saw the news report yesterday, re the Kurds taking a town back from Isis, They showed underground tunnels that Isis had dug to shelter from the Russian/French bombing.

Well, what was found in one of these tunnels, British ammunition boxes! We're not only arming the rebels that the Russians are bombing near Turkey, but it seems we have also helped Isis along the way.

The whole situation is ridiculous. As I'm on the subject of the U.K arming rebel groups, have a read of this http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jun/01/trial-swedish-man-accused-terrorism-offences-collapse-bherlin-gildo

[BCFC Jimmer]

1 hour ago, Big Brother said:

 

I get some of my perspective from a Christian family that lives in Damascus.  We have corresponded for several years.

 

 

You are a compulsive liar aren't you?

Every argument you have you name drop like this.

I would advise all those engaging with Big Brother to stop.  Life on here has got slightly better since I have stopped - guys a WUM.

[Red-Robbo]

1 hour ago, Big Brother said:

 

I get some of my perspective from a Christian family that lives in Damascus.  We have corresponded for several years. Where do you get your perspective from?

 

 

People not directly tied to the Syrian regime.

Look. Civil wars are the messiest,  bloodiest conflicts there are. A higher percentage of Englishmen died in the English Civil War than in WWI ; more Gernan males proportionately died in the internicine strife of the 30 Years War than in either world war; the American Civil War was by far the bloodiest conflict the US has been involved in.

There are no white hats and black hats in that situation. I understand that. If I was a Syrian Christian it may be Assad represented my best hope of defence against the Sunni triumphalism of Jamhat Al-Nusrya and the genocidal madness of IS.

In a way, the whole war - like most modern civil wars - is a hangover from the colonial divide and rule policy of favouring one collaborative minority caste over the majority. Sri Lanka; Rwanda; Iraq; Cyprus and Burundi are other examples.

What I'd like you to understand and is very well documented is that there was a real groundswell of Sunni unrest in Syria and the way Assad dealt with it led to the war and drove some into the arms of religious extremism. There was no tradition of Wahhabism in Syria before the war.

Channel 4 News said that the UN estimates that 65% of adult Syrian men are now bearing arms. If you extrapolate from a 17m population then you do get millions of combatants. The Syrian armed forces were about 800,000 before the war. An estimated 40% deserted, and Assad is now bolstered on the ground by Alawite, Druze and Marionite militia. As well as Hezbollah from Lebanon. It is reasonable to estimate that the vast bulk of Sunni men of fighting age are in.anti-Assad groupings. Even forces engaged in fighting IS like the Syrian Kurds are still "rebel" groups.

 

[Esmond Million's Bung]

1 minute ago, Collis1 said:

You are a compulsive liar aren't you?

Every argument you have you name drop like this.

I would advise all those engaging with Big Brother to stop.  Life on here has got slightly better since I have stopped - guys a WUM.

Pot and kettle then.

 

[Red-Robbo]

3 minutes ago, Big Brother said:

It is a fubar situation indeed, a vortex of horror. There had to be external agencies stirring the pot right at the start though: there definitely is now. ISIS, we can agree I think, is vile and needs to be eradicated. As for the rest, well my gut instinct is that all nations should stay-out of the affairs of other nations.

 

Quite. And that extends to Russia.

I see D Cameron's Commons pitch today is "bombing Syria will make us safer". Hmmmm, worked well in France didn't it?!

Any military action against IS can only be as part of a UN "grand coalition" but we're a way from that yet.

We need to help broker peace in the rest of the Syrian Civil War first. A solution that will allow Assad to step down (perhaps a discontinuation of the UN War Crimes Commission probe?) and one that recognises religious plurality in Syria: perhaps a Sunni president and Shia PM.