George Ferguson (Merged many times)

[Son of Fred]

51 minutes ago, Lord Northski said:

Well you got your way, Labour got its core vote out and got Marv in. Since then precisely nothing has happened in Bristol, and all those who voted for nothing to happen can say "I did that" 

How dare you-Marv has had his hands full slashing budgets.

At least unlike George he doesn't tell anyone that questions him to **** off....just "get stuffed"..from the sublime to the ridiculous.

[Lack of Action Man]

1 hour ago, Lord Northski said:

Bristol as a place to live, ended up being a better place after his stint as mayor. 

Complete nonsense. He did nothing to improve the city. I'd go so far as to say he virtually set the city back 5-10 years on where it should have been. 

The man is an utterly evil bastard who is only out for his own (or his families) gains. 

Good riddance.

[Peter O Hanraha-hanrahan]

1 hour ago, Tom Fleuriot said:

Hmm. As someone who lived In the area before and after, I've never been convinced by this line. I'd say Aldi did a lot more to increase footfall along North Street and regenerate the area. The cheaper, decent quality houses within thirty minutes walk of the centre did the rest. Tobacco Factory seemed to me as a consequence of Southville changing, not a cause. It's a good venue, but to suggest Ferguson changed Southville has always seemed daft to me. 

Totally agree.

The area changed when the old factories were demolished and Aldi gave people in the area a reason to shop at that end of North St instead of going all the way down to Asda. Other shops started changing hands and the area as a whole became more attractive to a wider range of people.

For me, as a resident of Ashton Gate throughout the 90s, the biggest factors in the upturn of the area as a whole was down to several things...

It's proximity to the centre of Bristol (i.e. within walking distance), meaning the option of not having to drive into work or use public transport. The regeneration of North St and the rise of Londons Docklands which seemed to make living near rivers and harbours attractive to certain people with money. The Harbour festival in 1997 would've also helped in this respect. That's obviously just my opinion.

George Ferguson came along much later and isn't the reason why people's properties in the AG area have risen over the years. He may have opened businesses and brought some money into the area but others were already here doing that before him.

[Abraham Romanovich]

3 hours ago, Lord Northski said:

 Since then precisely nothing has happened in Bristol, and all those who voted for nothing to happen can say "I did that" 

Nonsense we now have a Bristol poet so you can hardly say he's done nothing.

[Lord Northski]

38 minutes ago, Peter O Hanraha-hanrahan said:

Totally agree.

The area changed when the old factories were demolished and Aldi gave people in the area a reason to shop at that end of North St instead of going all the way down to Asda. Other shops started changing hands and the area as a whole became more attractive to a wider range of people.

For me, as a resident of Ashton Gate throughout the 90s, the biggest factors in the upturn of the area as a whole was down to several things...

It's proximity to the centre of Bristol (i.e. within walking distance), meaning the option of not having to drive into work or use public transport. The regeneration of North St and the rise of Londons Docklands which seemed to make living near rivers and harbours attractive to certain people with money. The Harbour festival in 1997 would've also helped in this respect. That's obviously just my opinion.

George Ferguson came along much later and isn't the reason why people's properties in the AG area have risen over the years. He may have opened businesses and brought some money into the area but others were already here doing that before him.

 

2 hours ago, Tom Fleuriot said:

Hmm. As someone who lived In the area before and after, I've never been convinced by this line. I'd say Aldi did a lot more to increase footfall along North Street and regenerate the area. The cheaper, decent quality houses within thirty minutes walk of the centre did the rest. Tobacco Factory seemed to me as a consequence of Southville changing, not a cause. It's a good venue, but to suggest Ferguson changed Southville has always seemed daft to me. 

I'm totally with Dolly personally. GF is utterly appalling when it comes to football. Remember when TF opened and football shirts were banned on match days?

So you think a supermarket opening at the end of a line of independent shops is behind the regeneration of the area.. ok.

As such, you must've been delighted when Sainburys were going to build the largest ever store on the Ashton Gate site. Funny cos I don't remember the local traders along North Street being so keen...

In summary: Tom says Supermarkets are good for local shops and  businesses. Tom, try dropping Trump an email with your details, he might be looking for a new press secretary. 

Up the City. 

[BCFC11]

6 minutes ago, Lord Northski said:

 

So you think a supermarket opening at the end of a line of independent shops is behind the regeneration of the area.. ok.

As such, you must've been delighted when Sainburys were going to build the largest ever store on the Ashton Gate site. Funny cos I don't remember the local traders along North Street being so keen...

In summary: Tom says Supermarkets are good for local shops and  businesses. Tom, try dropping Trump an email with your details, he might be looking for a new press secretary. 

Up the City. 

Hello George 

[Peter O Hanraha-hanrahan]

2 minutes ago, Lord Northski said:

 

So you think a supermarket opening at the end of a line of independent shops is behind the regeneration of the area.. ok.. 

No, it was the first step. As I said, I totally agree that the Aldi supermarket opening did a huge amount to increase the footfall along that part of North St.

The demolition of the Wills factory made Ashton Gate look more appealing as a whole and allowed some new homes to be built as well as the arrival of a supermarket. North Street gradually took on a newer appearance after this which, along with other factors, made Ashton Gate and Southville a more desirable location to live. 

Im not sure George Ferguson deserves too much credit for the rise in people's house prices.

[Red7Rob]

Youre all wrong - It was Lion Stores that regenerated North Street

[A Horse With No Name]

8 minutes ago, Red7Rob said:

Youre all wrong - It was Lion Stores that regenerated North Street

It was the old biddy who had the junk shop on the opposite side by Bernard Hunter. She would stand in the doorway and block anyone going in that she didn't like the look of. I also know her ex neighbours and she used to throw half bricks over the fence at the children playing next door. 

[Lord Northski]

2 minutes ago, Peter O Hanraha-hanrahan said:

No, it was the first step. As I said, I totally agree that the Aldi supermarket opening did a huge amount to increase the footfall along that part of North St.

The demolition of the Wills factory made Ashton Gate look more appealing as a whole and allowed some new homes to be built as well as the arrival of a supermarket. North Street gradually took on a newer appearance after this which, along with other factors, made Ashton Gate and Southville a more desirable location to live. 

Im not sure George Ferguson deserves too much credit for the rise in people's house prices.

Perhaps you're right, it may've been the first step. I was running a business in North Street at the time as the factories were demolished and the street was in a really bad way at the time, certainly nothing anything compared to the vibrant place it is today. I remember George led a campaign to try and the save the part of the factory that remains today, which went on to become part of his business empire that so many people seem to despise him for.

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

@Robert the bruce

The budget slashing thing would have continued apace regardless of Mayor. Government slashes cash to councils, therefore councils slash budgets. Ok, so that's a bit of an oversimplification but it's not far wrong.

Ferguson...he was a bang average Mayor- at best- and that's before we even get onto his views on our new ground.

[Tom Fleuriot]

1 hour ago, Lord Northski said:

 

So you think a supermarket opening at the end of a line of independent shops is behind the regeneration of the area.. ok.

As such, you must've been delighted when Sainburys were going to build the largest ever store on the Ashton Gate site. Funny cos I don't remember the local traders along North Street being so keen...

In summary: Tom says Supermarkets are good for local shops and  businesses. Tom, try dropping Trump an email with your details, he might be looking for a new press secretary. 

Up the City. 

Wow. Your response is probably more akin to the behaviour of Trump's press secretaries. 

Of course, there are different types of supermarkets and different types of streets at different stages of economic development. Therefore different outcomes can happen from apparently similar events.

Noting that you've now accepted the general point I made, I suggest that you think about whether the way you engage in conversation is likely to increase or decrease your understanding of things. 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Spoons said:

Yeah a big white elephant called the metro bus! 

Approved by the Lib Dems before he got to power. He did try to alter/stop it but had he done so all funding would be removed and not available for use elsewhere 

[Lrrr]

7 hours ago, OddBallJim said:

Complete nonsense. He did nothing to improve the city. I'd go so far as to say he virtually set the city back 5-10 years on where it should have been. 

The man is an utterly evil bastard who is only out for his own (or his families) gains. 

Good riddance.

Nothing like sitting on the fence.... 

[SARJ]

8 hours ago, Lord Northski said:

Yeah, it's rubbish, no one travels on it....

Next, someone's gonna complain that George invested in the Tobacco Factory which led to the regeneration of North Street, meaning that every house in Bedminster is now worth a fortune. 

 

As someone who lives on North Street, and bought my place during Ferguson's tenure as Mayor, what Lord Northski is saying here actually makes some sense.

1.) Action: whether you agree with what Ferguson wanted or not, he got things done. Closed the center and portway on weekends, started the RPZ scheme, "20 is Plenty" campaign & began the metrobus works etc. Like I said, you don't have to agree with it, but appreciate that the man backed up his words with action. Since the new mayor has been in Office I have noticed no physical or administrative changes that will affect my life in any way. I actually suffer each day because of Ferguson's actions, but for a politician, especially local, I've never noticed 1 individual accomplish so much in such a short space of time, so fair play.

2.) "Bristol A Better Place To Live" Comment: I think Lord Northski may have been taken out of context here. I think he' specifically referring to the regeneration of Southville & Bemmy (which he clarified on a later post). Here Northski is seminally correct. As a direct result of Ferguson my 1 bed flat has increased over £40k in the 1 year I've owned it. If you have a house, even better, I know 2 bed terrace house just off of North Street now selling for over £300k. Great for us homeowners. Not great for people bred and brought up in BS3. And, as the only Bristolian in my block of flats, I for one do not like the type of people Ferguson has brought to North Street, namely out of town Londoners, bearded hipsters or the wealthy kids from Devon, who all look down their noses at locals and mock our accent. But fair play again, he's transformed the area and money talks. Thanks to him I'm almost £50k better off for doing sweet FA!

[Dollymarie]

Ah yes. The 20 is plenty scheme, where pollution from cars going slower actually made things in terms of air quality worse! 

[SARJ]

12 minutes ago, Dollymarie said:

Ah yes. The 20 is plenty scheme, where pollution from cars going slower actually made things in terms of air quality worse! 

Like I said Dolly, you don't have to agree, just appreciate that Ferguson was a man of action. He promised to deliver the scheme and successfully did so (within a year). 

For what it's worth, the scheme makes my life as a motorist miserable, but I do take my hat off, the man gets things done unlike most politicians in Westminster, elected on false promises.

[Lord Northski]

25 minutes ago, SARJ said:

As someone who lives on North Street, and bought my place during Ferguson's tenure as Mayor, what Lord Northski is saying here actually makes some sense.

1.) Action: whether you agree with what Ferguson wanted or not, he got things done. Closed the center and portway on weekends, started the RPZ scheme, "20 is Plenty" campaign & began the metrobus works etc. Like I said, you don't have to agree with it, but appreciate that the man backed up his words with action. Since the new mayor has been in Office I have noticed no physical or administrative changes that will affect my life in any way. I actually suffer each day because of Ferguson's actions, but for a politician, especially local, I've never noticed 1 individual accomplish so much in such a short space of time, so fair play.

2.) "Bristol A Better Place To Live" Comment: I think Lord Northski may have been taken out of context here. I think he' specifically referring to the regeneration of Southville & Bemmy (which he clarified on a later post). Here Northski is seminally correct. As a direct result of Ferguson my 1 bed flat has increased over £40k in the 1 year I've owned it. If you have a house, even better, I know 2 bed terrace house just off of North Street now selling for over £300k. Great for us homeowners. Not great for people bred and brought up in BS3. And, as the only Bristolian in my block of flats, I for one do not like the type of people Ferguson has brought to North Street, namely out of town Londoners, bearded hipsters or the wealthy kids from Devon, who all look down their noses at locals and mock our accent. But fair play again, he's transformed the area and money talks. Thanks to him I'm almost £50k better off for doing sweet FA!

Thanks SARJ

[Tom Fleuriot]

2 hours ago, SARJ said:

As someone who lives on North Street, and bought my place during Ferguson's tenure as Mayor, what Lord Northski is saying here actually makes some sense.

2.) "Bristol A Better Place To Live" Comment: I think Lord Northski may have been taken out of context here. I think he' specifically referring to the regeneration of Southville & Bemmy (which he clarified on a later post). Here Northski is seminally correct. As a direct result of Ferguson my 1 bed flat has increased over £40k in the 1 year I've owned it. If you have a house, even better, I know 2 bed terrace house just off of North Street now selling for over £300k. Great for us homeowners. Not great for people bred and brought up in BS3. And, as the only Bristolian in my block of flats, I for one do not like the type of people Ferguson has brought to North Street, namely out of town Londoners, bearded hipsters or the wealthy kids from Devon, who all look down their noses at locals and mock our accent. But fair play again, he's transformed the area and money talks. Thanks to him I'm almost £50k better off for doing sweet FA!

Are you saying that:

 - the regeneration of Southville and Bemmy would not have happened without Ferguson?  As I have said above - the regeneration was clearly going to happen anyway, as it has happened in similarly-located areas of all cities that did well from the mid-1990s onwards .  The Tobacco Factory rode the wave because the market was there and was building.  If it can be traced to one event it was Aldi stopping the "Asda run".

- your house's 40k increase in value would not have happened were it not for Ferguson's comments?  Again, I think this was happening anyway.

NB: if true that he campaigned to save the current Tobacco Factory building rather than demolish the whole thing, he deserves credit for that certainly.  The building is striking and is an asset to the area.  But the gentrification gathering pace in St George hasn't needed a Tobacco Factory.

[TRL]

Hated George, disagreed a lot of what he did in his tenure... but he did do things.

 I'd much prefer that than bloody labour, lib dems, conservatives greens et al who sit on there arses , nibbling on red tap, proposing ideas that never get past the first hurdle, leaving Bristol one of the most backward cites in the UK when it comes to infrastructure.

Now if only we can have a George like figure who I like with ideas I like.

[Taz]

20 is plenty.

As a motorist that no longer lives in Bristol, the first I knew of this scheme was when I was down visiting my parents one weekend/week (can't remember which). I was suddenly faced with breaking the speed limit on roads that I had been using for many years before I moved up the country.

Now I can see why in certain areas there is a need for a 20mph speed limit - around schools, old people's homes etc, but why the hell am I doing 20mph driving along an empty Broadwalk in the middle of the day. 

Absolutely bloody ridiculous. Is there anybody that can justify why there are so many 20 roads now?

[SARJ]

14 hours ago, Tom Fleuriot said:

Are you saying that:

 - the regeneration of Southville and Bemmy would not have happened without Ferguson?  As I have said above - the regeneration was clearly going to happen anyway, as it has happened in similarly-located areas of all cities that did well from the mid-1990s onwards .  The Tobacco Factory rode the wave because the market was there and was building.  If it can be traced to one event it was Aldi stopping the "Asda run".

- your house's 40k increase in value would not have happened were it not for Ferguson's comments?  Again, I think this was happening anyway.

NB: if true that he campaigned to save the current Tobacco Factory building rather than demolish the whole thing, he deserves credit for that certainly.  The building is striking and is an asset to the area.  But the gentrification gathering pace in St George hasn't needed a Tobacco Factory.

Thanks for your response Tom. I do not know where your house is, but I have lived in BS3 all my life so feel qualified to answer your questions.

- would the regeneration have happened without Ferguson: who knows. It's all ifs and buts. You can't honestly say it definitely would have, or definitely would have not. All I know is Ferguson was an extremely wealthy man who bought up major North Street buildings (Tobacco Factory & Beer Factory) that were abandoned/in disrepair and turned them into money making businesses and restaurants which has attracted like minded businesses and people to the area. Can't imagine there were a huge number of people willing to risk thousands (arguably more) on such regeneration.

- would my house value, and BS3 values in general, have risen without Ferguson?: arguably yes, with the new high speed national rail link, and BS3 being only 20mins from town, it was always going to be a convenient place to live. But Ferguson made it a trendy place where people actually want to live, hence pay well above and beyond the cost of bricks and mortar. Without him I'd have expected a modest rise in the value of my flat, but thanks to him making the area a fashionable hive of activity, attractive to both young people and families, with the bonus of being a great location, I'm in the money.

 

Please note that my above comments are not necessarily an endorsement of Ferguson's policies. As said in my previous post, what the man has done has actually had a negative impact on my life (my house price increase aside). Parking is a nightmare thanks to RPZ, BS3 is now full of people who look down their noses at local Bristolians, the area is extremely yuppy/gentrified (you'd struggle to find an eatery serving normal pub grub), roads are always closed due to kids playing in the streets or hippy festivals (making driving anywhere a nightmare) and for fellow Bristolians born and bred in BS3 who hope to raise a family in this area, buying a normal 3-bed terrace is virtually impossible as they've now been priced out. Also, if you don't adamantly support the Greens or Labour party and display posters in your window to that effect, you'll be the odd one out.

[Guest]

17 hours ago, Dollymarie said:

Ah yes. The 20 is plenty scheme, where pollution from cars going slower actually made things in terms of air quality worse! 

Again, a LibDem pioneered scheme put into place prior to his arrival. He obviously agreed with it.  It's not really bothered me as nobody adheres to it. 

[Guest]

14 hours ago, Tom Fleuriot said:

NB: if true that he campaigned to save the current Tobacco Factory building rather than demolish the whole thing, he deserves credit for that certainly.  The building is striking and is an asset to the area.  But the gentrification gathering pace in St George hasn't needed a Tobacco Factory.

The factory was originally sold to a developer (might have been dutch based) who appointed George/His Company to be architects. However the company went bust before anything could be done.  As such the whole site went to auction and was divided into plots. 

George tried to buy the entire site to redevelop it. However he was the only bidder on what is now the TF - he put in a token bid not thinking he'd win... 

[Tom Fleuriot]

1 hour ago, SARJ said:

Thanks for your response Tom. I do not know where your house is, but I have lived in BS3 all my life so feel qualified to answer your questions.

- would the regeneration have happened without Ferguson: who knows. It's all ifs and buts. You can't honestly say it definitely would have, or definitely would have not. All I know is Ferguson was an extremely wealthy man who bought up major North Street buildings (Tobacco Factory & Beer Factory) that were abandoned/in disrepair and turned them into money making businesses and restaurants which has attracted like minded businesses and people to the area. Can't imagine there were a huge number of people willing to risk thousands (arguably more) on such regeneration.

- would my house value, and BS3 values in general, have risen without Ferguson?: arguably yes, with the new high speed national rail link, and BS3 being only 20mins from town, it was always going to be a convenient place to live. But Ferguson made it a trendy place where people actually want to live, hence pay well above and beyond the cost of bricks and mortar. Without him I'd have expected a modest rise in the value of my flat, but thanks to him making the area a fashionable hive of activity, attractive to both young people and families, with the bonus of being a great location, I'm in the money.

 

Please note that my above comments are not necessarily an endorsement of Ferguson's policies. As said in my previous post, what the man has done has actually had a negative impact on my life (my house price increase aside). Parking is a nightmare thanks to RPZ, BS3 is now full of people who look down their noses at local Bristolians, the area is extremely yuppy/gentrified (you'd struggle to find an eatery serving normal pub grub), roads are always closed due to kids playing in the streets or hippy festivals (making driving anywhere a nightmare) and for fellow Bristolians born and bred in BS3 who hope to raise a family in this area, buying a normal 3-bed terrace is virtually impossible as they've now been priced out. Also, if you don't adamantly support the Greens or Labour party and display posters in your window to that effect, you'll be the odd one out.

I think this is a reasonable assessment (I've also lived in BS3 for much of my life). I personally feel that he deserves credit for his vision with the Beer Factory and Tobacco  Factory, and can see how they helped expedite similar businesses coming to the area. However, I still think that when you look at areas with similar attributes (in Bristol and elsewhere in the U.K.), for him to be seen as the cause is too strong. I also still see acts like the banning of football shirts when TF first opened as a sign of a guy who doesn't understand football or football fans. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Tom Fleuriot said:

I think this is a reasonable assessment (I've also lived in BS3 for much of my life). I personally feel that he deserves credit for his vision with the Beer Factory and Tobacco  Factory, and can see how they helped expedite similar businesses coming to the area. However, I still think that when you look at areas with similar attributes (in Bristol and elsewhere in the U.K.), for him to be seen as the cause is too strong. I also still see acts like the banning of football shirts when TF first opened as a sign of a guy who doesn't understand football or football fans. 

They've banned away fans as of this season... It was probably the pub regarded as the best away fan friendly pub closest to the game as well.  Guess they don't want the business anymore.

[Kid in the Riot]

3 hours ago, SARJ said:

Thanks for your response Tom. I do not know where your house is, but I have lived in BS3 all my life so feel qualified to answer your questions.

- would the regeneration have happened without Ferguson: who knows. It's all ifs and buts. You can't honestly say it definitely would have, or definitely would have not. All I know is Ferguson was an extremely wealthy man who bought up major North Street buildings (Tobacco Factory & Beer Factory) that were abandoned/in disrepair and turned them into money making businesses and restaurants which has attracted like minded businesses and people to the area. Can't imagine there were a huge number of people willing to risk thousands (arguably more) on such regeneration.

- would my house value, and BS3 values in general, have risen without Ferguson?: arguably yes, with the new high speed national rail link, and BS3 being only 20mins from town, it was always going to be a convenient place to live. But Ferguson made it a trendy place where people actually want to live, hence pay well above and beyond the cost of bricks and mortar. Without him I'd have expected a modest rise in the value of my flat, but thanks to him making the area a fashionable hive of activity, attractive to both young people and families, with the bonus of being a great location, I'm in the money.

 

Please note that my above comments are not necessarily an endorsement of Ferguson's policies. As said in my previous post, what the man has done has actually had a negative impact on my life (my house price increase aside). Parking is a nightmare thanks to RPZ, BS3 is now full of people who look down their noses at local Bristolians, the area is extremely yuppy/gentrified (you'd struggle to find an eatery serving normal pub grub), roads are always closed due to kids playing in the streets or hippy festivals (making driving anywhere a nightmare) and for fellow Bristolians born and bred in BS3 who hope to raise a family in this area, buying a normal 3-bed terrace is virtually impossible as they've now been priced out. Also, if you don't adamantly support the Greens or Labour party and display posters in your window to that effect, you'll be the odd one out.

House prices have risen pretty consistently across the city over the past 3 years. I don't honestly know if as a percentage prices have risen more steeply in and around North St - I expect yes. But even so the majority of this £40k you seem to think you've made (?) surely cannot be put down to GF. It's just down to the continuing lack of housing supply and built-up demand coupled with Bristol being a very desirable place to live.

As for GF. A man out for himself clearly who "got things done" when he stood to profit from them. All the road closures for kids events - isn't his daughter involved in organising those? 

[SARJ]

2 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

House prices have risen pretty consistently across the city over the past 3 years. I don't honestly know if as a percentage prices have risen more steeply in and around North St - I expect yes. But even so the majority of this £40k you seem to think you've made (?) surely cannot be put down to GF. It's just down to the continuing lack of housing supply and built-up demand coupled with Bristol being a very desirable place to live.

As for GF. A man out for himself clearly who "got things done" when he stood to profit from them. All the road closures for kids events - isn't his daughter involved in organising those? 

Not saying the house price increase is solely because of Ferguson's actions alone. As mentioned, many features to consider, ranging from the new rail network, inflation, housing crisis, Bristol in general etc, but Ferguson's ventures have in part helped raise everyone's price around the North Street/Southville area without any question of doubt. 

As for GF being out for himself, not doubting that at all. Dolly has listed several arguments for this earlier. But he still got things done and that demands some respect. As one poster said earlier, would rather have someone like him achieving what he did in 4 years rather than the endless red-tape of Westminster Politicians.

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, SARJ said:

Not saying the house price increase is solely because of Ferguson's actions alone. As mentioned, many features to consider, ranging from the new rail network, inflation, housing crisis, Bristol in general etc, but Ferguson's ventures have in part helped raise everyone's price around the North Street/Southville area without any question of doubt. 

As for GF being out for himself, not doubting that at all. Dolly has listed several arguments for this earlier. But he still got things done and that demands some respect. As one poster said earlier, would rather have someone like him achieving what he did in 4 years rather than the endless red-tape of Westminster Politicians.

I can recall my sister buying a house on Garnet St (old corner shop) in the mid 90's for £34k!   I wouldn't just credit TF for the way North Street is now.. nobody talks about the success of the Lounge which started off in one shop.. now occupies three and has gone on to create a chain of 90+.. that's some success story. 

[Sixtyseconds]

On 8/10/2017 at 17:04, Dollymarie said:

Ah yes. The 20 is plenty scheme, where pollution from cars going slower actually made things in terms of air quality worse! 

One of my friends was killed by a motorist traveling at 40 mph.

He may have survived if the limit was 20 mph.

In the road I live in adjacent to a kids school there were five accidents in eighteen months.

None since 20 mph was introduced.

Lives are being saved,