George Ferguson (Merged many times)

[marshy]

2 hours ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Oh well the Schengen agreement is on the verge of collapse, Angela Merkel's finance minister and close ally compared her managing of the migrant crisis to a 'careless skier' who triggers an 'avalanche' and African countries saying they will refuse to take back failed asylum seekers, crisis what crisis?.

The advantages of being an island race.

 

You beat me to it EMB. A wonderful swipe at Mekel by Schauble. What is also interesting is that the Germans, usually so wonderfully efficient have, as I predicted, admitted to having absolutely no idea as to how many migrants they have in their processing centres and also absolutely no idea either as to how many are in the country.

[Lanterne Rouge]

1 minute ago, marshy said:

Well RRH I would argue that it shoulde end wherever the will of the people wants it to end. A vote on Basque independence would be a wonderful thing and could end decades of terrorism.

Are ETA still active? I thought they had accepted that terrorism wasn`t the answer and gave up the armed struggle several years ago.

I`m not suggesting that votes for independence would be a bad thing, quite the reverse, just that Spain (and by extension the EU) would never allow it to happen.

[chipdawg]

7 minutes ago, marshy said:

You may call it an annexation, I would argue that it is enabling the will of the people.

It's an annexation, regardless of whether people want it or not

Annex (verb)

1. To append or attach, especially to a larger or more significant thing.

2. To incorporate (territory) into an existing political unit such as a country, state, county, or city.

3. To add or attach, as an attribute, condition, or consequence.

 

Anyway, I feel like we've moved away from what we were actually discussing which is the human rights records of Russia and Syria

[marshy]

1 hour ago, Collis1 said:

Nit picking much? 

You haven't answered the question.

[chipdawg]

15 minutes ago, Big Brother said:

Well the title of the thread concerns Red Trousers and Refugees, so why don't we get back to them.

Feel free. I'm just wondering why we so swiftly moved on from Russia and Syria's human rights records, that's all

[marshy]

44 minutes ago, chipdawg said:

It's an annexation, regardless of whether people want it or not

Annex (verb)

1. To append or attach, especially to a larger or more significant thing.

2. To incorporate (territory) into an existing political unit such as a country, state, county, or city.

3. To add or attach, as an attribute, condition, or consequence.

 

Anyway, I feel like we've moved away from what we were actually discussing which is the human rights records of Russia and Syria

Yes but it was more like a reverse takeover. Russia didn't 'incorporate' the Crimea. The Crimea decided to join Russia.

[marshy]

1 hour ago, Big Brother said:

 

 

Do you feel better now that you've got that off your chest?

Personal attacks aside (I forgive you) you just have to accept that I am not an apologist for Vladimir Putin per se: Russia needs a strong leader and I think he is what his people needs.  I don't know who you spoke with but while I was actually there in Russia I was surprised by how positive people were about him, yeah he's screwed-up sometimes, but everyone said he had Russia's interests at heart. 

As to your specific points:

1. "what about the abysmal economic system, the pummeled currency and endemic corruption that Putin administers?"
I am sure you know that the USA and Co have been waging economic war against Russia?  That's going to hurt - and the last I read it was costing them 10,000 jobs PER DAY.  As for their economy in general, I am really impressed by how far they've come: after the devastation of Russia in WW2, 70 years (was it?) of Communist dictatorship including the madness of Stalin, and then the anarchy of the Oligarch period, that Russia even has an economy is a minor miracle. Sure it's a bit skewed onto basic things but I am sure they'll get their eventually.
Speaking of abysmal economic systems: you do realise I hope that our entire way of life rests purely on 'confidence', confidence of the markets that is, because we're floating on a sea of s5it, sorry I mean electronic debt.  It's a house of cards mate, we're one loud cough and a sneeze away from meltdown. The debt grows, despite how much burden the government puts on working people or how much it takes from the poor, and it grows because it was designed that way. It's criminal and embarrassing.

2.
"Do you support Russia's brutal targeting and violence against gay people and ethnic minorities? Or the fact that Putin signed a law to prevent gay people adopting children?"

You are once again looking at the Russian situation through Western European eyes. It's a mistake.  Specifically - any ethnic minority that violently kicks-off against the host deserves to be hammered, imo. Take a look at the map and realise how ethnically diverse Russia really is and how impressive the country is for holding that together. Look how small the UK is by comparison and how much grief there has been here over the years. Marshy is talking about Spain straining to hold it together and Russia has far larger ethnic tensions to deal with than Spain.

As for gay adoption, I am against it, 100% ... as in totally, you know, completely. And I speak as someone who went on a tour of Italy with a lesbian who is married to another girl and has two sons. 

3.
"What about the environmental destruction that Putin has supported? For example, pretty much taking down a forest for the Sochi Olympics and the oil and gas development in the Artic that has ruined indigenous civilizations. The air quality in Russia is one of the worst in the world."
I don't know anything about Sochi but all I would say is: the UK government is cutting subsidies to green energy and trying its best to get fracking established in the UK against all local opposition.

4.
"If you have any shred of human empathy there is literally nothing about Putin and Russian to envy. Most Russians I have spoken to completely agree. The country is stuck in the dark ages and the people feel oppressed. You are either incredibly naive or actually mental!"
I work with Russians (and two Ukrainians) and none of the Russians I speak with, practically on a daily basis, have told me they feel oppressed.  Sure they moan about things like everyone (and Russians do seem to have a dark soul) but I don't see any real problem.  I opened a company in Russia, it was easier than doing the same in Italy (it took 10 days). The people seemed fine, the younger people were open and friendly, it was clean enough, people are a bit rough around the edges but I like that. The food was great. Things were fine. It's not Africa Collis.  

Carry on ... 

Absolutely. If it were there would be millions trying to get out.

[chipdawg]

12 minutes ago, marshy said:

Yes but it was more like a reverse takeover. Russia didn't 'incorporate' the Crimea. The Crimea decided to join Russia.

I don't think the definition made reference to relative levels of desire. Feel free to call it want you want though, I'm not disputing that the majority in Crimea seem happy with the arrangement 

Anyway, the human rights record of Russia and Syria? I believe you were defending them?

[BCFC Jimmer]

19 minutes ago, marshy said:

You haven't answered the question.

You support Putin as well? Cowboy....

[marshy]

5 minutes ago, chipdawg said:

I don't think the definition made reference to relative levels of desire. Feel free to call it want you want though, I'm not disputing that the majority in Crimea seem happy with the arrangement 

Anyway, the human rights record of Russia and Syria? I believe you were defending them?

I was merely making the point that 1). in a Civil War people get hurt and it will always be your 'own people' and 2). in my opinion there is an awful lot of misinformation put out about Putin and Russia.

[BCFC Jimmer]

1 hour ago, Big Brother said:

 

 

Do you feel better now that you've got that off your chest?

Personal attacks aside (I forgive you) you just have to accept that I am not an apologist for Vladimir Putin per se: Russia needs a strong leader and I think he is what his people needs.  I don't know who you spoke with but while I was actually there in Russia I was surprised by how positive people were about him, yeah he's screwed-up sometimes, but everyone said he had Russia's interests at heart. 

As to your specific points:

1. "what about the abysmal economic system, the pummeled currency and endemic corruption that Putin administers?"
I am sure you know that the USA and Co have been waging economic war against Russia?  That's going to hurt - and the last I read it was costing them 10,000 jobs PER DAY.  As for their economy in general, I am really impressed by how far they've come: after the devastation of Russia in WW2, 70 years (was it?) of Communist dictatorship including the madness of Stalin, and then the anarchy of the Oligarch period, that Russia even has an economy is a minor miracle. Sure it's a bit skewed onto basic things but I am sure they'll get their eventually.
Speaking of abysmal economic systems: you do realise I hope that our entire way of life rests purely on 'confidence', confidence of the markets that is, because we're floating on a sea of s5it, sorry I mean electronic debt.  It's a house of cards mate, we're one loud cough and a sneeze away from meltdown. The debt grows, despite how much burden the government puts on working people or how much it takes from the poor, and it grows because it was designed that way. It's criminal and embarrassing.

2.
"Do you support Russia's brutal targeting and violence against gay people and ethnic minorities? Or the fact that Putin signed a law to prevent gay people adopting children?"

You are once again looking at the Russian situation through Western European eyes. It's a mistake.  Specifically - any ethnic minority that violently kicks-off against the host deserves to be hammered, imo. Take a look at the map and realise how ethnically diverse Russia really is and how impressive the country is for holding that together. Look how small the UK is by comparison and how much grief there has been here over the years. Marshy is talking about Spain straining to hold it together and Russia has far larger ethnic tensions to deal with than Spain.

As for gay adoption, I am against it, 100% ... as in totally, you know, completely. And I speak as someone who went on a tour of Italy with a lesbian who is married to another girl and has two sons. 

3.
"What about the environmental destruction that Putin has supported? For example, pretty much taking down a forest for the Sochi Olympics and the oil and gas development in the Artic that has ruined indigenous civilizations. The air quality in Russia is one of the worst in the world."
I don't know anything about Sochi but all I would say is: the UK government is cutting subsidies to green energy and trying its best to get fracking established in the UK against all local opposition.

4.
"If you have any shred of human empathy there is literally nothing about Putin and Russian to envy. Most Russians I have spoken to completely agree. The country is stuck in the dark ages and the people feel oppressed. You are either incredibly naive or actually mental!"
I work with Russians (and two Ukrainians) and none of the Russians I speak with, practically on a daily basis, have told me they feel oppressed.  Sure they moan about things like everyone (and Russians do seem to have a dark soul) but I don't see any real problem.  I opened a company in Russia, it was easier than doing the same in Italy (it took 10 days). The people seemed fine, the younger people were open and friendly, it was clean enough, people are a bit rough around the edges but I like that. The food was great. Things were fine. It's not Africa Collis.  

Carry on ... 

Gosh, some more stone age view s coming out there. I know a gay couple who adopted and they are some of the best parents I know. Much better than the dozens of broken homes I know of. 

With the business thing didn't putin introduce a law that massively constrained non government organisations recently?

Its very strange that you like him so much. 

I disagree with the economy things you said and the corruption there is out of this world. Don't know how you can think any of its a good thing. It looks to me like the main reason you like him is tough on migrants.

 

[Kid in the Riot]

3 minutes ago, marshy said:

I was merely making the point that 1). in a Civil War people get hurt and it will always be your 'own people' and 2). in my opinion there is an awful lot of misinformation put out about Putin and Russia.

And a lot of misinformation put out BY Putin and Russia.

Whilst we're on the 'will of the people' of Ukraine, I believe that was to oust their Russian puppet of a president was it not? Russia got pissy and annexed Crimea.

[marshy]

7 minutes ago, Collis1 said:

You support Putin as well? Cowboy....

Now, now..no need for that Sonny Jim. Do you have any up to date figures? Strange how so many people deplore the make-up of the UK economy for having too small a manufacturing sector and too great a reliance on services, usually misguided folk on the left, but on the other hand want to see a greener and less polluting economy.

[marshy]

6 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

And a lot of misinformation put out BY Putin and Russia.

Whilst we're on the 'will of the people' of Ukraine, I believe that was to oust their Russian puppet of a president was it not? Russia got pissy and annexed Crimea.

Well I don't doubt for one minute that they're all at it...misinformation that is.

Yankuvic (sp?) was the elected president as I understand it. There was an election coming up in a few months, they just needed a little patience and they could have voted him out...although of course votes in the East might have outweighed those in the West of the country. I don't really want to go over again the murky involvement of the unelected EU commissioners in all this, everything they touch turns to sludge.

[BCFC Jimmer]

10 hours ago, Big Brother said:

 

He doesn't have up to date figures because if he had he would know that in 2014 a study by Yale University showed that Russia's average air quality score is better than that of Denmark, France, Greece, Cyprus, Japan, Italy, and others, and only marginally worse than that of the UK:

http://epi.yale.edu/epi/issue-ranking/air-quality

Good attempt to trivialize my argument by nit picking.  Yet, you make no attempt to condemn the violence against ethnic minorities and now it has come out you are homophobic - yes, saying they shouldn't be allowed to adopt children is both homophobic and embarrassingly out of touch (Maybe one of your children or grandchildren will be gay and you might change your mind). 

Such a nice chap you must be and a joy of a person to have a beer with.  I'm presuming you don't share those beliefs with all the 'worldy' people you keep saying you know.  Surely anyone who shared those kind of beliefs in a social situation would be outed as an out of touch bigot in rapid time.

 

 

[BS2 Red]

10 hours ago, Big Brother said:

Bristol Somali sex abuse gang: The full horrific story

A SICKENING underworld of sexual exploitation has been dismantled in Bristol – and can now be made public for the first time.

In all, 13 Somali men have been convicted of 31 sex crimes against seven vulnerable teenage girls. They used and abused their victims, exploiting their trust and, in some cases, trafficking them across the city to exploit them. Including drug offences, prison sentences totalling more than 75 years have already been imposed at the crown court, with punishments lasting decades more to follow.
http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Bristol-Somali-sex-abuse-gang-horrific-story/story-24775601-detail/story.html#6jPTdmBJJDmC7LpP.01

Note: the above is not my opinion but the following is: mass immigration is the enemy of the people of the UK.  Some of these animals got 13 years and will probably be out in 7.

 

It's pretty disgusting that you will take cases like that to push your anti immigration agenda.  That group are sick and evil, nobody would argue differently.  But that's not an excuse to argue for immigration to stop or to turn such cases into a racial thing, the issue is sick and evil people who need to be caught and punished, not the demonisation of foreign born people.  And we have plenty of home grown evil sickos, like this group below (some of whom got less time than those above that you mentioned).  

 

Quote

Seven paedophiles who preyed on a baby and young children acted "beyond human instinct" and were guilty of "terrifying depravity", a judge said.

Jailing them, Judge Julian Lambert said the men had engaged in "the most grossly deviant behaviour imaginable".

He said what they had done made some feel "physically sick".

The prison sentences issued to the gang members, who streamed some attacks on the internet, range from two years to 24 years.

The court was told the men would drive hundreds of miles for a chance to rape or abuse a child.

• Robin Hollyson, 31, from Bedfordshire, was sentenced to 24 years in prison and a further eight years on licence. He was filmed abusing the baby.
• Christopher Knight, 35, from Manchester, was jailed for 18 years, with an extension of six years on licence
• Matthew Stansfield, 35, from Hampshire was jailed for 14 years
• Adam Toms, 33, from Somerset, received a 12-year sentence, and four years on licence
• John Denham, 50, from Wiltshire - previously known as Benjamin Harrop - was jailed for eight years plus four years on licence
• Matthew Lisk, 32, from East Sussex, was jailed for four years, plus an extension of three years on licence
• David Harsley, 51, from East Yorkshire, was jailed for two years

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-34219235

 

[BS2 Red]

1 minute ago, Big Brother said:

As I've said over and over before, all pedos should be castrated, or at least given very long prison terms in a labour camp.  The fact that the country has imported hundreds more pedos is the issue I am highlighting. I imagine most people would agree this was not a good idea.

That is not the issue you are highlighting or at least if you are trying to then you are doing a poor job of it.  You are taking cases of sexual violence and using it as an example as to why immigration is bad, that is a rather disgusting way to make your point.  And it has little to do with the immigration debate, we all agree paedos and rapists are evil, immigrants are no more likely to commit sexual offences than anybody else.

 

[Red-Robbo]

14 hours ago, marshy said:

Yes but there is a majority as I understand it for a coalition of independence supporting parties some of which also wish to leave the euro.

I think the coalition includes some special interest parties who wish to remain in Spain. The main Catalan nationalist party lost a third of its seats. 

With Crimea, perhaps the best solution would have been independence from Russia and the Ukraine. The original inhabitants were Crim Tartars after all, and if Stalin hadn't deported them en masse that would still be the case. Russians only started living in the peninsula in numbers in the 20th Century because of the Naval base and tourism industry.

[TRL]

8 minutes ago, Big Brother said:

Nit picking? You were besmirching the image of a country and made a claim which was false. You were pulled-up on it first my Marshy and then by me - with hard data.  You were wrong. It happens. Move on.

Which violence against which ethnic minorities?  If Russia is acting in an aggressive way to sovereign nations or ethnic groups (as the USA has done consistently for the last 20 or 30 years) then I'll definitely condemn it.  Send me some stuff to read.

I'm homophobic am I?  :laugh:  Labels ... don't you just love them? Lefty tactics.  I have nothing at all against whatever people want to do in the privacy of their own homes.  We all find happiness in our own way.  But that's where it should stay imo, at home, between consenting adults.  Orphans don't give consent.  Btw I have a nephew who is gay.  I have two good friends who are gay, one since the early 80s.  I have my opinion, they have theirs - doesn't stop us loving each other.

And more personal insults.  Collis what can I say? I am not throwing insults at you but you're accusing me of being an unpleasant person. I'm not going to bite.

On the gays having children argument, I am with you BB. I have nothing against gays, I just believe a child is entitled to a mother and a father. I have no doubt gay couples can bring up a child as well as well as a hetrosexual couple... 

 

If males and males were meant to procreate and likewise female and female then they would be able to.. There is a reason they cannot. We are designed to make children and keep the species going... Sometimes people want everything... Sometimes I think you makes your choices (I know I know being gay is not a choice, bad choice of word by me) you live with the facts of life.

 

This is more about pandering to people's needs to be happy rather than any thought for the resultant child.  So for me I have never agreed with it. 

 

Gay marriage gay partnerships all fine by me... I just cannot and never will agree with the same sex having children. And that is coming from an agnostic  

 

I think Collis is a bit out of order calling you Homophobe just because you have a different opinion

[chipdawg]

4 minutes ago, TRL said:

On the gays having children argument, I am with you BB. I have nothing against gays, I just believe a child is entitled to a mother and a father. I have no doubt gay couples can bring up a child as well as well as a hetrosexual couple... 

 

If males and males were meant to procreate and likewise female and female then they would be able to.. There is a reason they cannot. We are designed to make children and keep the species going... Sometimes people want everything... Sometimes I think you makes your choices (I know I know being gay is not a choice, bad choice of word by me) you live with the facts of life.

 

This is more about pandering to people's needs to be happy rather than any thought for the resultant child.  So for me I have never agreed with it. 

 

Gay marriage gay partnerships all fine by me... I just cannot and never will agree with the same sex having children. And that is coming from an agnostic  

 

I think Collis is a bit out of order calling you Homophobe just because you have a different opinion

At the end of the day, I think a child is better off in a home with people who want them and will care for them than kicking about in the care system or in a broken, violent or dangerous home. The sexuality or sexes of those in that home is secondary really if you ask me, though I don't believe anyone should be insulted or shouted down for not sharing that belief- a set of values should never be imposed. It should, however, probably be accepted that the majority these days do agree with same sex marriage and adoption

I know a single woman who is in the late stages of adoption; she's not found anyone to share her life with but wants to be and feels ready to be a mother. Where does she fit in with your view in adoption and the family unit? I'm not having a go btw, just interested

[Red-Robbo]

12 hours ago, marshy said:

Well I don't doubt for one minute that they're all at it...misinformation that is.

Yankuvic (sp?) was the elected president as I understand it. There was an election coming up in a few months, they just needed a little patience and they could have voted him out...although of course votes in the East might have outweighed those in the West of the country. I don't really want to go over again the murky involvement of the unelected EU commissioners in all this, everything they touch turns to sludge.

Ukraine was signing a trade deal. That's all. Similar to ones signed by non EU Serbia,  Norway, Iceland etc etc. 

Putin didn't like this as he saw it as the first step to a potential EU application from Ukraine (who let's face it have an economy which would mean It would be years before they ever could qualify to join) and after that, Nato membership. You've seen in Georgia what Russia does now when one of its near neighbours suggests it may join Nato. 

He ordered Yanukovych to do a U-turn and repudiate the deal, which ordinary Ukrainians had hoped would open new markets and make their country as rich as neighbouring Poland. 

I don't think they had much faith in the electoral process under Yanukovych. He had already imprisoned his main political rival on trumped up charges* and used his thugs to break her health; he had banned opposition rallies and was using the state-run media Putin-style to repudiate any opposition views and to pump out propaganda for his party. There were suggestions from independent electoral monitors at the last Ukrainian election that it was neither free or fair and that votes were not counted in a number of places. 

In the end, Yanukovych was not deposed by the uprising of people on the streets, but by the deputies in the Ukrainian parliament. A number of members from his own party joined the.opposition and voted to impeach him.

Poroshenko, the present president, was previously a member of Yanokych's party and is from the East of Ukraine. 

 

 

* Misuse of state funds was the charge: deeply ironic you might have thought coming from a man who used public money to build a palace of Versailles style residence complete with full-size pirate galleon and solid gold golf clubs,  and who handed the entire Ukrainian steel industry to his son.

[TRL]

7 minutes ago, chipdawg said:

At the end of the day, I think a child is better off in a home with people who want them and will care for them than kicking about in the care system or in a broken, violent or dangerous home. The sexuality or sexes of those in that home is secondary really if you ask me, though I don't believe anyone should be insulted or shouted down for not sharing that belief- a set of values should never be imposed. It should, however, probably be accepted that the majority these days do agree with same sex marriage and adoption

I know a single woman who is in the late stages of adoption; she's not found anyone to share her life with but wants to be and feels ready to be a mother. Where does she fit in with your view in adoption and the family unit? I'm not having a go btw, just interested

My view is still the same For the woman you know. A child should be born out of a loving relationship it should not be treated as something you know want because you now feel ready for it.

On to adoption....

Does the person you know work? How does she intend to look after this child she may want to adopt? I am presuming she has to work to support said child... If this is the case I don't think she should be able to adopt as where does the child go? Nursery? Parents? Its just the way I think... If you want children you leave work and look after them, don't put them into nursery or off to the parents.

 

Just my opinion.. I know many will not agree with it

[chipdawg]

12 hours ago, Big Brother said:

 

He doesn't have up to date figures because if he had he would know that in 2014 a study by Yale University showed that Russia's average air quality score is better than that of Denmark, France, Greece, Cyprus, Japan, Italy, and others, and only marginally worse than that of the UK:

http://epi.yale.edu/epi/issue-ranking/air-quality

 

 

 

Sorry BB, that's not what it shows at all. The EPI is framework developed by Yale and Columbia universities to rank countries on their environmental 'performance' (Russia was 76th last year, firmly mid table) and monitors trends in the environmental conditions in a given country. The air quality standard in the EPI related to PM2.5, which is essentially a measure of tiny particulates in the atmosphere, and the % of the population using solid fuel indoors. Russia obviously scores very well on this as a developed nation and the population/based exposure to PM2.5 is similarly low- primarily due to the vast area Russia covers (the stat is derived by averaging the population and particulate readings over the area of the country). On the only comparable stat, which is essentially the number of exceedances in all samples, Russia ranks 106th which is quite frankly shit. Russia currently has two cities in the 10 most polluted places on earth, Norilsk and Dzerzhinsk. The former has a life expectancy for males of 42. To put that into context, the worst country in the world for life expectancy according to WHO is Sierra Leone which has a male life expectancy of 46

PM2.5 is actually a poor indicator for air quality, but it is a very easy one to measure as it can be done by satellite imagery and all combustion processes generate it. However, it's also generated by forest fires, agriculture, thunderstorms and desert areas. Chemical emissions are by far the biggest problem in Russia and because of the vastness of the landmass, those emissions are often with urban areas. Corruption at the local and national level also tends to mean that backs are turned to bad practice and soviet-era technology is not particularly eco-friendly. There is no easy answer to the issue though, though I could go on at length about it! 

Where I would give Putin credit is in his personal efforts to protect some of the threatened large mammals within Russia. Putin has donated large amounts of money to protecting Amur leopards, Siberian tigers and polar bears and as I'm sure you'd point out, that's not often reported in the western media   

[chipdawg]

23 minutes ago, TRL said:

My view is still the same For the woman you know. A child should be born out of a loving relationship it should not be treated as something you know want because you now feel ready for it.

On to adoption....

Does the person you know work? How does she intend to look after this child she may want to adopt? I am presuming she has to work to support said child... If this is the case I don't think she should be able to adopt as where does the child go? Nursery? Parents? Its just the way I think... If you want children you leave work and look after them, don't put them into nursery or off to the parents.

 

Just my opinion.. I know many will not agree with it

But the children up for adoption are more often than not born into terrible relationships and terrible home environments. So just because they should be born into a loving, mother/father environment, doesn't mean they will be

She does work and has a very supportive family who will be helping her as much as she needs. I'm sure the child will be spending time in nursery, but then again my soon-to-arrive child will go to nursery eventually because both myself and my wife work full time. What about families where the parents divorce or a parent dies? Obviously the child will have to spend time in nursery then

[Lanterne Rouge]

4 minutes ago, chipdawg said:

But the children up for adoption are more often than not born into terrible relationships and terrible home environments. So just because they should be born into a loving, mother/father environment, doesn't mean they will be

She does work and has a very supportive family who will be helping her as much as she needs. I'm sure the child will be spending time in nursery, but then again my soon-to-arrive child will go to nursery eventually because both myself and my wife work full time. What about families where the parents divorce or a parent dies? Obviously the child will have to spend time in nursery then

Seems to me that, although not a  `conventional` adoption, the child has to be better off with her and have better prospects than remaining (presumably) in care.

[TRL]

7 minutes ago, chipdawg said:

But the children up for adoption are more often than not born into terrible relationships and terrible home environments. So just because they should be born into a loving, mother/father environment, doesn't mean they will be

She does work and has a very supportive family who will be helping her as much as she needs. I'm sure the child will be spending time in nursery, but then again my soon-to-arrive child will go to nursery eventually because both myself and my wife work full time. What about families where the parents divorce or a parent dies? Obviously the child will have to spend time in nursery then

Divorce or death are another thing entirely. The choice to adopt when you don't intend to be there for the child and choose to send to nursery or to the parents is morally wrong imo.  Like I said before if people want children they should look after them until they go to school and work around those times. Imo money provide for the child by those who choose to work is far out weighed by one of the parents being there for the child in its formative years.

 

This is not a go at you, I am sure you will make a great parent... But for me having a child then not being there for it out side of maternity leave does not sit right. A child should be with a parent not nusery or grand parents imo, how else do your family values get passed to the child when they are being passed pillar to post for childcare the parent should be providing.

 

Haha don't shoot me chip, its just the way I think

[chipdawg]

1 hour ago, Big Brother said:

Fair enough, I stand corrected.  The thing that irked me though was our friend Collis using the fact that Russia has air pollution as one reason why it's shit country and by extension Putin is therefore a see you next Tuesday.  Russia has many problems but imo it's doing ok other things considered (not meaning politics here, just economics) and the people are on the whole very nice. I had huge steak dinners there for less than a fiver btw.

Taking aside Putin's particular brand of politics, which is to be fair very difficult in modern day Russia, I think it must be an exceptionally difficult country to administer- a vast diaspora of different landscapes and peoples. However, many of those peoples and landscapes have been abandoned to environmental, economic and social destitution (perhaps you could argue that such areas exist throughout much of the west) and I'm not sure that's sustainable and will come back to bite Vlad in the arse 

[chipdawg]

1 hour ago, TRL said:

Divorce or death are another thing entirely. The choice to adopt when you don't intend to be there for the child and choose to send to nursery or to the parents is morally wrong imo.  Like I said before if people want children they should look after them until they go to school and work around those times. Imo money provide for the child by those who choose to work is far out weighed by one of the parents being there for the child in its formative years.

 

This is not a go at you, I am sure you will make a great parent... But for me having a child then not being there for it out side of maternity leave does not sit right. A child should be with a parent not nusery or grand parents imo, how else do your family values get passed to the child when they are being passed pillar to post for childcare the parent should be providing.

 

Haha don't shoot me chip, its just the way I think

Don't worry, the gun isn't loaded! I've not taken offence- each to their own and in and ideal world, I'd love it if we could both quit work and be full time parents. But we can't afford that so we'll have to soldier on as best we can. I will admit that work-life balance becomes a hell of a lot more important once a kid is on the way. I'm keen on nursery anyway as I think children should socialise as early as possible, so from that side of things I'm comfortable with it

As for my friend, I doubt she'll be offended either as she's already been accepted as an adopter. She's aware that it's not a conventional way to raise a child but she feels she can offer someone a better a life. If you don't feel that's appropriate, that's entirely down to you

[richwwtk]

BB - you bullied a guy off of this forum partly because you accused him of making shit up about his life to back up his arguments. You seem to do the same.

Every country anyone mentions you've lived and worked there, you have mates and work colleagues from there, and their views every time seem to back up your arguments. It can't just be coincidence can it?

Also, you travel around a lot for work - are you an economic migrant?

[richwwtk]

2 hours ago, TRL said:

Divorce or death are another thing entirely. The choice to adopt when you don't intend to be there for the child and choose to send to nursery or to the parents is morally wrong imo.  Like I said before if people want children they should look after them until they go to school and work around those times. Imo money provide for the child by those who choose to work is far out weighed by one of the parents being there for the child in its formative years.

 

This is not a go at you, I am sure you will make a great parent... But for me having a child then not being there for it out side of maternity leave does not sit right. A child should be with a parent not nusery or grand parents imo, how else do your family values get passed to the child when they are being passed pillar to post for childcare the parent should be providing.

 

Haha don't shoot me chip, its just the way I think

Personally, I feel a child should go to nursery prior to school age regardless of the working status of the parents.

They learn to handle themselves in social situations and start to become more independent, something that is essential once they start going to school.