Red-Robbo Posted November 11, 2015 Report Share Posted November 11, 2015 2 hours ago, Big Brother said: And some great news from Syria: Syria army breaks through year-long Isis siege of key Aleppo air base Kweyris military base east of Aleppo may now be used by Russian planes in their battle against rebels fighting the regime of Bashar al-Assad, experts say http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/11/syria-army-breaks-through-year-long-isis-siege-of-key-aleppo-air-base Bravo Russia. Surprised you're so keen on two Communist leaders who lead avowedly internationalist parties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Hunt-Hertz Posted November 11, 2015 Report Share Posted November 11, 2015 15 hours ago, Red-Robbo said: Why is former Coronation street character Reg Holdsworth in that picture? Winnie Mandela....widow of this parish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC Jimmer Posted November 11, 2015 Report Share Posted November 11, 2015 20 hours ago, Big Brother said: It would be nice to feel your government is putting your needs before other peoples', that the old would be fed and kept warm in winter, that ex-military would be entitled to free housing and re-training, that everyone would have access to affordable housing, that some utilities would be run for the benefit of the people, that looking after the environment would come before the demands of international energy conglomerates We want the same thing in this case but my argument is that far right parties wouldn't be able to deliver that because a lot of them are funded by people who support the free market. Your beliefs here would actually align with a socialist government (obviously barring your insane views on Muslims and immigration.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted November 11, 2015 Report Share Posted November 11, 2015 4 minutes ago, Rouge Sans Pareil said: Winnie Mandela....widow of this parish. I think the full line up is Radio 2s Moira Stewart; Nelson; Reg Holdsworth. They are probably outside Whitemead House, Duckmoor Road. At its re-naming ceremony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted November 11, 2015 Report Share Posted November 11, 2015 2 minutes ago, Big Brother said: Putin and Assad you mean? Yep, both avowed International Socialists. Also your post on the work Russia is doing to support Assad's regime fails to mention the boots-on-the-ground contribution from Iran and Hezbollah. Not sure why... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC Jimmer Posted November 11, 2015 Report Share Posted November 11, 2015 7 minutes ago, Big Brother said: I think you look at things through an old-school framework. Right and Left doesn't mean much these days, except to lazy journos who write things like 'The far right Front National party' whose policies are a mix of what used to be called Right and Left. That would explain your second paragraph where you are struggling to put together disparate pieces of out of date paradigms*. Further, what you call 'insane views' are becoming pretty much mainstream across Europe and belong to people from all walks of life. * Very out of date it would seem: "The terms "left-wing" and "right-wing" originated in the years following the French Revolution of 1789, when the nobility were seated on the right side in parliament meeting, and representatives of the liberal bourgeoisie sat on the left. " Source: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Political_spectru Not looking at it from an old school framework. In my experience when researching the type of parties you have been alluding too they often don't have a practical economic plan (very dangerous). When they do have a plan they mainly support free market economics which wouldn't create a society of looking after our vulnerable people like you hope for. I don't think you have mentioned UKIP, but they are a perfect example. They are funded by people who want to cut taxes for the rich and corporations even more then they are now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted November 11, 2015 Report Share Posted November 11, 2015 I couldn't be bothered to start a new thread so i've tagged on to this one. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/france-cancels-official-dinner-with-irans-president-rouhani-because-he-wants-it-to-be-wine-free-a6729581.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screech Posted November 11, 2015 Report Share Posted November 11, 2015 48 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said: I couldn't be bothered to start a new thread so i've tagged on to this one. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/france-cancels-official-dinner-with-irans-president-rouhani-because-he-wants-it-to-be-wine-free-a6729581.html A tolerant lot aren't they...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted November 11, 2015 Report Share Posted November 11, 2015 59 minutes ago, screech said: A tolerant lot aren't they...... For the first time since Hollande was elected I can say i'm impressed. I just thought he was only a handsome stud muffin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshy Posted November 11, 2015 Report Share Posted November 11, 2015 1 hour ago, Esmond Million's Bung said: I couldn't be bothered to start a new thread so i've tagged on to this one. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/france-cancels-official-dinner-with-irans-president-rouhani-because-he-wants-it-to-be-wine-free-a6729581.html What happened to the principle of ''when in Rome.......'' ? Still it's his loss, I'm told the French put on a damn good spread, especially when there's the prospect of a few juicy business contracts. Only the best champagne I'm sure for those French socialists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted November 11, 2015 Report Share Posted November 11, 2015 4 hours ago, Big Brother said: A post wrapped in a post. Putin's great, I respect him. I don't like his totalitarian leanings, but as far as I can tell he loves his people and will defend them. I have respect for Assad as well. OK he's a brutal **** but he is far better than the alternatives. He is a nationalist. He loves his people. He came to power in 2000 and since then Syria has been involved in two wars: the Gulf War and their current civil war, so he going out and attacking other countries for the fun of it, like some other nations. Note sure what point your making in your last paragraph though. I didn't deliberately not mention Iran and Hezbollah. Let's be clear, I hate this war and I hate the fact that a relatively stable country has been all but destroyed due to the USA + Sunni axis. I am glad Syria is getting help from its allies. I am grateful that Russia is pummeling the USA's proxy armies and I am glad Russia is pounding the cr4p out of ISIS. It's great that Iran has sent in numbers to help. Ah but Nationalists should stay out of the affairs of other countries - too right, they should, but Syria is no longer a state, it's a battlefield and it's vital that Assad holds on to power or there will be hell in the ME and Europe. As I understand it Ba'athism is a nationalist ideology. "According to the congress, the Ba'ath party was "nationalist, populist, socialist, and revolutionary" and believed in the "unity and freedom of the Arab nation within its homeland." The party opposed the theory of class conflict, but supported the nationalisation of major industries, the unionisation of workers, land reform, and supported private inheritance and private property rights to some degree." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Socialist_Ba%27ath_Party_%E2%80%93_Syria_Region https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Syria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashar_al-Assad Not really nationalist BB. At the heart of Ba'athism is the idea of a unified Arab state. A bit like - gasp! - Euro-Federalists want the EU to end up. Egypt and Syria actually unified once - Jordan was sort of involved but wisely pulled out in the last minute. The United Arab Republic lasted less than a year before conflicts of interest pulled it apart. Nonetheless the idealism the Assad (and his fellow Ba'athist Saddam) follow/ed was internationalist in nature. And of course I mentioned Iran and its proxies as you must be as conflicted as Obama is. Supporting a regime reliant on the muscle of the world's most militant and expansionist genuine Islamic fundamentalist state. The Syrian war makes strange bedfellows and weird alliances and I think your Russia Today style analysis of it is rather simplistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid in the Riot Posted November 11, 2015 Report Share Posted November 11, 2015 How does it square that Putin and Assad genuinely love their own people yet murder and torture their own people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted November 11, 2015 Report Share Posted November 11, 2015 6 hours ago, Big Brother said: 1 hour ago, Big Brother said: I missed this the first time round. You are asserting that Putin is a Communist (still) - source please. I've been there, it's anything but a Communist state. You need to do some further reading about your blood-stained miniature hero. Although the All-Russia Party that he leads has no official ideology other than "Putin is great" it is the successor movement to the Fatherland Front which was the successor organisation to the CPRSFSR (Communist Party). Indeed the Communist Party still exists as a sort of theoretical rubber-stamping off-shoot of the All-Russia Party. Putin has never officially left the Communist Party in fact. His organisation simply subsumed it. It is packed with other ex- and current Communists and acts in the same way as the old USSR did: political control of the army; a state secret police arm; political prisoners and the assassination of opponents ; state control of media; rigged "elections" etc. Putin himself has often spoken of his admiration of Lenin, while Russia is resurrecting its Stalin statues and "workers monuments" left right and centre. He has also spoken of his anti-imperialism (non Russians in Crimea, Georgians, Chechens and Ingush may disagree on this) and internationalism. Moscow is still home of the Fourth International and Russia is still the main ally of a variety of nominally Marxist aligned states, from Vietnam to Syria. Of course he isn't a genuine Communist in the Lenin mould. Few of Vladimir Ilyich's successors actually were. It's just the corrupt clique running Russia now get to consort with prostitutes in Belgravia rather than just Havana, as in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid in the Riot Posted November 11, 2015 Report Share Posted November 11, 2015 2 hours ago, Big Brother said: Source? Which bit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid in the Riot Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 45 minutes ago, Big Brother said: This bit: " How does it square that Putin and Assad genuinely love their own people yet murder and torture their own people? " The first bit is your opinion, so that is my source. You want me to provide a source that Assad and Putin have tortured and murdered their own people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshy Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 13 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said: How does it square that Putin and Assad genuinely love their own people yet murder and torture their own people? Leaving Putin aside as it's difficult to disentangle fact from fiction when it comes to media reporting/propaganda on Russia, in Syria there is a civil war going on. People routinely murder and torture their own people in these circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 11 hours ago, Big Brother said: Communism is dead Robbo. But,the totalitarian state-ism it embodied is left behind and is very much a feature of Putin's Russia, which is why I'm surprised he's one of your political heroes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 1 hour ago, marshy said: Leaving Putin aside as it's difficult to disentangle fact from fiction when it comes to media reporting/propaganda on Russia, in Syria there is a civil war going on. People routinely murder and torture their own people in these circumstances. Assad wasn't exactly a doyen of the human rights movement before the war either; http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jul/16/syrian-human-rights-unchanged-assad (Apologies for The Guardian link as I know you're not a fan, but the link to HRW just goes to their homepage and as you rightly point out, a search for 'Syria' on their website is decidedly war-related) HRW are also rather scathing of the deterioration in human rights in Russia https://www.hrw.org/europe/central-asia/russia As are Amnesty https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/europe-and-central-asia/russian-federation/report-russian-federation/ I don't know what your opinions are as to the bias or lack there of of those organisations, but they are certainly independent of nationality and political affiliation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid in the Riot Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 2 hours ago, marshy said: Leaving Putin aside as it's difficult to disentangle fact from fiction when it comes to media reporting/propaganda on Russia, in Syria there is a civil war going on. People routinely murder and torture their own people in these circumstances. @Big Brother stated that he thinks Putin is "great" and that "he genuinely loves his own people". He expressed a near identical view of Assad. I'm just wondering, if the pair of them love their people so much, why they murder and torture them? Is it for some 'greater good'? Or is it a case of they love some of them, but anyone that steps out of line gets whacked? Or is it a case that they couldn't give two shits about their people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC Jimmer Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 2 hours ago, Big Brother said: These are valid question. I wish things weren't so. However is the situation in the USA that different to that in Russia? The USA has a ruling class with a state security apparatus, parts of which are said to be autonomous, that routinely disposes of human rights (phone taps for example, torture, imprisonment, probably assasinations etc). Does Mi5 get involved in dirty things? I imagine so. And of course the CIA's activity abroad is a horror story in its own right. As for Putin, I've always said he has totalitarian leaning, but who are we to judge him? Why are we not rising-up against Cameron for his involvement in the destruction of Libya? I mean, wtf was that all about?? How about Blair for his lies and part in Gulf War 1? At least here people are hassling him. What about calling-out the USA for training an army in Syria to topple Assad? It's truly disgraceful. I'm not trying to wash Putin's sins away, but I imagine anyone running a country like Russia, with so many other nations along it's border, some enemies, some friends, and its long history of being invaded, and being under perpetual pressure from the USA, will have blood on his hands. He's not running the local Parish Council. It's a sh1tty world. As for Putin caring about his people - yeah I think he does. I think he genuinely loves Russia and his people in a way I don't see in Obama for Americans or sense in Cameron for say the English. I was thinking about what Robbo said about Putin being a Communist and I remembered that Merkel was also a Communist. It's interesting how they individually view the muslim immigration issue. Merkel has rolled out the red carpet (though is probably regretting that now) which will alter the nature of German society. Putin on the other hand has it completely right imo ... I literally can't believe you sometimes and your love of Putin reveals more about your true character. All your comments are superficial; what about the abysmal economic system, the pummeled currency and endemic corruption that Putin administers? Do you support Russia's brutal targeting and violence against gay people and ethnic minorities? Or the fact that Putin signed a law to prevent gay people adopting children? What about the environmental destruction that Putin has supported? For example, pretty much taking down a forest for the Sochi Olympics and the oil and gas development in the Artic that has ruined indigenous civilizations. The air quality in Russia is one of the worst in the world. If you have any shred of human empathy there is literally nothing about Putin and Russian to envy. Most Russians I have spoken to completely agree. The country is stuck in the dark ages and the people feel oppressed. You are either incredibly naive or actually mental! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshy Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 6 hours ago, chipdawg said: Assad wasn't exactly a doyen of the human rights movement before the war either; http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jul/16/syrian-human-rights-unchanged-assad (Apologies for The Guardian link as I know you're not a fan, but the link to HRW just goes to their homepage and as you rightly point out, a search for 'Syria' on their website is decidedly war-related) HRW are also rather scathing of the deterioration in human rights in Russia https://www.hrw.org/europe/central-asia/russia As are Amnesty https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/europe-and-central-asia/russian-federation/report-russian-federation/ I don't know what your opinions are as to the bias or lack there of of those organisations, but they are certainly independent of nationality and political affiliation Not so sure about this as on their website Amnesty talks about a 'Russian occupied Crimea' when the people in the Crimea quite clearly wish to be considered Russian. It is quite possible that the people in E. Ukraine would also vote for Russia if given the opportunity. Meanwhile we hear little criticism of the Spanish government blocking an independent Catalonia when the vast majority of Catalans voted for it. My instincts tell me that although under pressure economically because of the two-pronged assault of low oil prices and misguided sanctions things are not as bad in Russia as the media would have us believe. No exodus yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshy Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 2 hours ago, Collis1 said: I literally can't believe you sometimes and your love of Putin reveals more about your true character. All your comments are superficial; what about the abysmal economic system, the pummeled currency and endemic corruption that Putin administers? Do you support Russia's brutal targeting and violence against gay people and ethnic minorities? Or the fact that Putin signed a law to prevent gay people adopting children? What about the environmental destruction that Putin has supported? For example, pretty much taking down a forest for the Sochi Olympics and the oil and gas development in the Artic that has ruined indigenous civilizations. The air quality in Russia is one of the worst in the world. If you have any shred of human empathy there is literally nothing about Putin and Russian to envy. Most Russians I have spoken to completely agree. The country is stuck in the dark ages and the people feel oppressed. You are either incredibly naive or actually mental! It is a very big country. Which part of Russia were you thinking of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 Oh well the Schengen agreement is on the verge of collapse, Angela Merkel's finance minister and close ally compared her managing of the migrant crisis to a 'careless skier' who triggers an 'avalanche' and African countries saying they will refuse to take back failed asylum seekers, crisis what crisis?. The advantages of being an island race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 1 hour ago, marshy said: Not so sure about this as on their website Amnesty talks about a 'Russian occupied Crimea' when the people in the Crimea quite clearly wish to be considered Russian. It is quite possible that the people in E. Ukraine would also vote for Russia if given the opportunity. Meanwhile we hear little criticism of the Spanish government blocking an independent Catalonia when the vast majority of Catalans voted for it. My instincts tell me that although under pressure economically because of the two-pronged assault of low oil prices and misguided sanctions things are not as bad in Russia as the media would have us believe. No exodus yet. Well Russia's annexation of the Crimea is not recognised in established international law or indeed by very many countries or organisations in the world, so I don't think Amnesty failing to recognise them is necessarily an indication of political bias. Obviously you can apply those same objections to international law and prevalent opinion, but it's not really Amnesty's fault Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 2 hours ago, marshy said: Not so sure about this as on their website Amnesty talks about a 'Russian occupied Crimea' when the people in the Crimea quite clearly wish to be considered Russian. It is quite possible that the people in E. Ukraine would also vote for Russia if given the opportunity. You could make similar points about parts of Northern Ireland. The thing is redrawing national boundaries in 2015 should be about democratic voting and negotiation, not invasion or insurgency by proxies. As for Catalunya, I'm. not so sure your assertion is correct. Independence won a big majority in an unofficial poll that was boycotted by the main national parties in the region, but when it came to the regional assembly elections recently - in which everyone voted - the pro-independence party lost its majority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshy Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 35 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said: You could make similar points about parts of Northern Ireland. The thing is redrawing national boundaries in 2015 should be about democratic voting and negotiation, not invasion or insurgency by proxies. As for Catalunya, I'm. not so sure your assertion is correct. Independence won a big majority in an unofficial poll that was boycotted by the main national parties in the region, but when it came to the regional assembly elections recently - in which everyone voted - the pro-independence party lost its majority. Yes but there is a majority as I understand it for a coalition of independence supporting parties some of which also wish to leave the euro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC Jimmer Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 2 hours ago, marshy said: It is a very big country. Which part of Russia were you thinking of? Nit picking much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshy Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 58 minutes ago, chipdawg said: Well Russia's annexation of the Crimea is not recognised in established international law or indeed by very many countries or organisations in the world, so I don't think Amnesty failing to recognise them is necessarily an indication of political bias. Obviously you can apply those same objections to international law and prevalent opinion, but it's not really Amnesty's fault You may call it an annexation, I would argue that it is enabling the will of the people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanterne Rouge Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 I can`t see Spain ever allowing it TBH. If they do, the Basques will want it too and that will impact on parts of France so where will it end? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshy Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 1 minute ago, Red Right Hand said: I can`t see Spain ever allowing it TBH. If they do, the Basques will want it too and that will impact on parts of France so where will it end? Well RRH I would argue that it should end wherever the will of the people wants it to end. A vote on Basque independence would be a wonderful thing and could end decades of terrorism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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