Bristol South End

[handsofclay]

In the Bedminster team pic that is Sam Hollis in the back row on the right, three times manager of Bristol City and also of course of Bedminster.

[22A]

On ‎2‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 17:54, handsofclay1909 said:

I am going to really confuse matters now by revealing that when I was chatting to our official club historian, David Woods, a few months ago, he informed me that he has been finding very good links between Bristol South End and a club called Bristol South which suggest that Bristol South End were a continuation of the Bristol South club who disbanded c.1894, I believe Bristol South might well have been in existence prior to 1883, so if these links can be proven with more evidence it could mean that Bristol City are the oldest club in Bristol.

I've dug out Peter Godsiff's "History of Bristol City FC". Thursday 12th April 1894, 18 football enthusiasts gathered in Milford Road to discuss forming a club to fill the void created as Bristol South FC had disbanded after winning the Bristol & District League. Bristol South End was formed. but their sworn enemies were Bedminster, which suggests they were already in existance. The first game was played 1st September 1894 against Swindon Town then "the west of England Champions".

The opening chapter of the book mentions that Warmley were the oldest established club in Bristol, but rivalry with St George killed off both clubs. That was one of the reasons for BSE Merging with Bedminster as neither was big enough to progress on it's own.

3rd April 1897 professionalism was adopted and on May 10th the club was elected to the first division of the Southern League.

[handsofclay]

The thing is though, when BCFC(1982) Ltd were formed it could be said to be filling the void caused by the disbanding of Bristol City in the same year. These 18 football enthusiasts mostly seem to have been associated with the Bristol South club that disbanded in the same year Bristol South End were formed. So in many ways it could possibly be looked upon as a continuation of the same club with an ever so slightly different name.

I do not wish to denigrate the work of the great Peter Godsiff, I have a signed copy of the book in question, but it is a sweeping statement to say that 18 football enthusiasts gathered in Milford Road to discuss the formation of the new club as in reality only 14 might've been enthusiastic, 3 rather sceptical and one downright hostile to the proposal even threatening to boo any new manager the others appointed before a ball was even kicked in the new team's name. 

[T R]

I was looking through this map site tonight. It raised a few questions in my mind. if you use this link you can zoom in and have a look at bristol south ends ground. On the left hand side you can use different date periods to see how things have changed. 

 http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=51.4422&lon=-2.6188&layers=171

The first picture I saved Is from 1902. As you can see the first few houses behind the atyeo have been built. It also looks like the pitch is in a different position. It has been mentioned by sources that southville played in the park but I cant see where exactly the pitch would have been. If you notice on the map you can see the old football ground where the tobacco factory is today on north street. When southville changed to bedminster they would have used this ground, opposite is ashton gate school and ashton gate road. It has been often said that bedminster played at ashton gate, are they referring to this old ground and not the ashton gate we know today? And then when bedminster merged with bristol south end to become bristol city they permanently moved to the ashton gate site that we know now. I hope you understand what I am trying to say as I am getting bloody confused myself. 

If you look closely you can see the hut where the bedminster team photo was taken which was shown earlier in this thread at the old ground next to ashton gate school. 

This second image is just to compare the 2, it is from 1930s.

[handsofclay]

Threshing Red, your investigations have gone over and beyond the call of duty. Well done. I am pretty sure, about 99% sure that the current Ashton Gate is the exact location where Bedminster built their stadium in 1896. When Bedminster merged with Bristol City in 1900, the first season both St John's Lane and Ashton Gate were used on an alternating basis as home venues. Then from 1901 to 1904, after a vote, St John's Lane was the only home ground. But in 1904 they switched back to Ashton Gate on a permanent basis.

[22A]

When St John's Lane was used there was a hill nearby where 100s of people used to stand on to watch the game free.

The club erected posts up which screens could be raised on pulleys during games, so that increased attendances. To increase revenue further, adverts were placed on the screens. I've often wondered though which hill? It's named as Mutton Hill, but what do we know it as today please as I don't know that name.

[Fiale]

54 minutes ago, 22A said:

When St John's Lane was used there was a hill nearby where 100s of people used to stand on to watch the game free.

The club erected posts up which screens could be raised on pulleys during games, so that increased attendances. To increase revenue further, adverts were placed on the screens. I've often wondered though which hill? It's named as Mutton Hill, but what do we know it as today please as I don't know that name.

1883 the Cricket ground was at the old Ashton Gate (North Street) Site, nothing shows for the current Ashton Gate.... but can find no maps for the area as it is built up, so hard to know from this web site - I am sure there are lots of maps of the area somewhere... just need to find one to see when the new Ashton Gate first shows up v'

 

 

All behind the ground was open (no houses or buildings) and according to this map the elevation behind the ground is upto 50 metres, then 100 metres in a relative short space

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Fiale]

Looking at all these maps, it's amazing how little South Bristol was built up until within the last 100 years... a few large farms, mines, rifle ranges etc - yet still a lot of hospitals and sports facilities.

[T R]

1 hour ago, Fiale said:

1883 the Cricket ground was at the old Ashton Gate (North Street) Site, nothing shows for the current Ashton Gate.... but can find no maps for the area as it is built up, so hard to know from this web site - I am sure there are lots of maps of the area somewhere... just need to find one to see when the new Ashton Gate first shows up v'

 

 

All behind the ground was open (no houses or buildings) and according to this map the elevation behind the ground is upto 50 metres, then 100 metres in a relative short space

 

 

 

 

 

 

@Fiale This map was surveyed in 1881-83 and published in 1887. It is interesting to see the area of our ground today has nothing there, so I presume this wasn't called ashton gate. It must have been called ashton gate when the cricket club moved there and took the name with them from the old site. Cause in the area around the old cricket ground, it has ashton gate chapel, ashton gate school, brewery, a few years later there is an ashton gate road. All these names must relate to the old toll gate which is at the end of ashton road. Originally there used to be gates across the road, this was the south gateway into bristol. Also I noticed north street on this map looks further along the road where it is built up. Interesting to see the apple orchard as well. 

Second map same years. This is St John's Lane, can't see any ground here at this time. 

[Fiale]

Some really nice maps out there - The Rising Sun has been around a while, even shows on the 1874 map

 

 

and North Street / Greenbush s pretty empty back then 

 

 

[handsofclay]

10 hours ago, 22A said:

When St John's Lane was used there was a hill near of people used to stan.d on to watch the game free.

The club erected posts up which screens could be raised on pulleys during games, so that increased attendances. To increase revenue further, adverts were placed on the screens. I've often wondered though which hill? It's named as Mutton Hill, but what do we know it as today please as I don't know that name.

It was due to these large advertising sheets that we acquired the name of 'sheetheads'

[cidered abroad]

11 hours ago, 22A said:

When St John's Lane was used there was a hill nearby where 100s of people used to stand on to watch the game free.

The club erected posts up which screens could be raised on pulleys during games, so that increased attendances. To increase revenue further, adverts were placed on the screens. I've often wondered though which hill? It's named as Mutton Hill, but what do we know it as today please as I don't know that name.

Mutton Hill is almost certainly where the road "Glyn Vale" goes from Wedmore Vale then via Donegal Rd, Kenmare Rd, to, eventually, Melvin Square. 

[cidered abroad]

9 hours ago, Threshing Red said:

@Fiale This map was surveyed in 1881-83 and published in 1887. It is interesting to see the area of our ground today has nothing there, so I presume this wasn't called ashton gate. It must have been called ashton gate when the cricket club moved there and took the name with them from the old site. Cause in the area around the old cricket ground, it has ashton gate chapel, ashton gate school, brewery, a few years later there is an ashton gate road. All these names must relate to the old toll gate which is at the end of ashton road. Originally there used to be gates across the road, this was the south gateway into bristol. Also I noticed north street on this map looks further along the road where it is built up. Interesting to see the apple orchard as well. 

Second map same years. This is St John's Lane, can't see any ground here at this time. 

I have always understood that the name "Ashton Gate" derived from the fact that the buiding / cottage at the junction of the western end of North Street and Ashton Road was originally a "Toll Gate" where travellers would pay for entry or departure from North Somerset into the City of Bristol.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashton_Gate,_Bristol 

Thus the accurate location of Ashton Gate is there and has been widened over time to includethe immediate local area, including our stadium.

[cidered abroad]

 

An old picture of the Toll House.

[22A]

Just to muddy the waters further; my son has the complete history of Arsenal FC. An appendix at the back lists all their results.

In 1910 Arsenal played Bristol City and a few weeks later played Bedminster. Was there another Bedminster somewhere?

[KernowRed]

On 26/02/2016 at 23:16, Threshing Red said:

@Fiale This map was surveyed in 1881-83 and published in 1887. It is interesting to see the area of our ground today has nothing there, so I presume this wasn't called ashton gate. It must have been called ashton gate when the cricket club moved there and took the name with them from the old site. Cause in the area around the old cricket ground, it has ashton gate chapel, ashton gate school, brewery, a few years later there is an ashton gate road. All these names must relate to the old toll gate which is at the end of ashton road. Originally there used to be gates across the road, this was the south gateway into bristol. Also I noticed north street on this map looks further along the road where it is built up. Interesting to see the apple orchard as well. 

Second map same years. This is St John's Lane, can't see any ground here at this time. 

Doing our family history, I have a subscription with 'Findmypast'. Included in the subs are British Newspapers and searching for 'BRISTOL SOUTH END' have found a report on the meeting forming the Club.

This was in the 'Bristol Mercury' dated 19th April 1894, and includes :-

''Athletics

A meeting was held on Monday evening, at Rock Lodge, Southville, under the presidency of Mr W R Nurse, for the purpose of further proceeding with the formation of the Bristol South End Association Football Club. The minutes of the previous meeting having been read by the hon. secretary  [Mr W R Hodgkinson] who explained that the new club was   amalgamated with the Bristol South, which had just brought to an end a most successful season. The usual committee were formed and other business transacted, amongst which it was decided to apply for entrance to the Bristol District League, on the 25th instant. A unanimous vote of thanks was passed to Mr John Durant for his kindness in placing his room at the disposal of the meeting. A ground has been secured for next season at the rear of Ashton Gate Brewery.''

This would place the 1st ground for the club if to the rear of the Brewery and between Clift Cottage, currently occupied with Ashton Gate Primary school, Ashton Gate Terrace and Ashton Gate Road. See 'Know Your Place' Bristol City Council website which shows current map with underlay of the old map.   http://maps.bristol.gov.uk/kyp/?edition=

Have also other published reports of matches, first against Swindon and Athelitic games at St Johns Lane. Cannot reproduce here due to 'Copyright' by FMP but if anyone interested , please send me aPM.

 

[handsofclay]

Interesting that the contemporary reports mentions amalgamation with the Bristol South club which would infer that Bristol South End were a continuation of Bristol South AFC. In which case we just have to discover when Bristol South were formed.

[Fiale]

35 minutes ago, KernowRed said:

Doing our family history, I have a subscription with 'Findmypast'. Included in the subs are British Newspapers and searching for 'BRISTOL SOUTH END' have found a report on the meeting forming the Club.

This was in the 'Bristol Mercury' dated 19th April 1894, and includes :-

''Athletics

A meeting was held on Monday evening, at Rock Lodge, Southville, under the presidency of Mr W R Nurse, for the purpose of further proceeding with the formation of the Bristol South End Association Football Club. The minutes of the previous meeting having been read by the hon. secretary  [Mr W R Hodgkinson] who explained that the new club was   amalgamated with the Bristol South, which had just brought to an end a most successful season. The usual committee were formed and other business transacted, amongst which it was decided to apply for entrance to the Bristol District League, on the 25th instant. A unanimous vote of thanks was passed to Mr John Durant for his kindness in placing his room at the disposal of the meeting. A ground has been secured for next season at the rear of Ashton Gate Brewery.''

This would place the 1st ground for the club if to the rear of the Brewery and between Clift Cottage, currently occupied with Ashton Gate Primary school, Ashton Gate Terrace and Ashton Gate Road. See 'Know Your Place' Bristol City Council website which shows current map with underlay of the old map.   http://maps.bristol.gov.uk/kyp/?edition=

Have also other published reports of matches, first against Swindon and Athelitic games at St Johns Lane. Cannot reproduce here due to 'Copyright' by FMP but if anyone interested , please send me aPM.

 

Any reason you think they played North of north street and not South directly behind the Brewery as in the minutes ?

 

also why are the getting rid of the old website http://maps.bristol.gov.uk/knowyourplace/   and replacing it with http://maps.bristol.gov.uk/kyp/?edition= , the old version is so much easier to use and has lot's more options easily visible.

[T R]

11 hours ago, Fiale said:

Any reason you think they played North of north street and not South directly behind the Brewery as in the minutes ?

 

also why are the getting rid of the old website http://maps.bristol.gov.uk/knowyourplace/   and replacing it with http://maps.bristol.gov.uk/kyp/?edition= , the old version is so much easier to use and has lot's more options easily visible.

Yeah it was a good website. Enjoyed looking through all the maps, like you said it is alot easier to use. I like this image on 1828, it shows the old gates across the road. When you think about it this is where it all began. 

One thing I noticed on alot of old maps is the brook behind the old williams stand. It used to be a parliamentary boundary, this turned into a permanent boundary in 1831 i think. I know the boundaries changed again later on so ashton gate has always been in bristol. 

 

[spudski]

What a great thread...thanks chaps for putting such effort in.

My father would love this...his family home was St Johns lane for many years...

[spudski]

Some of you might like this footage I found from 1947...

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/boys-football/query/bristol+football

[Red-Robbo]

6 minutes ago, spudski said:

Some of you might like this footage I found from 1947...

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/boys-football/query/bristol+football

I reckon I can see my dad there!!!

Brilliant stuff. 

To add to this thread,  a second cousin of mine has gone really into the genealogy of the Robbos and it's true, South Bristol as we know it just didn't really exist before the 1870s. The family lived in St George's or Hanham before then, when suddenly the South Liberty pit opened up a world of opportunities to working class folk. One of my proudest claims to fame is that it was an ancestor who started the Cross Hands.

More of my family were famous for getting flung our of pubs than owning one!

 

[spudski]

7 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

I reckon I can see my dad there!!!

Brilliant stuff. 

To add to this thread,  a second cousin of mine has gone really into the genealogy of the Robbos and it's true, South Bristol as we know it just didn't really exist before the 1870s. The family lived in St George's or Hanham before then, when suddenly the South Liberty pit opened up a world of opportunities to working class folk. One of my proudest claims to fame is that it was an ancestor who started the Cross Hands.

More of my family were famous for getting flung our of pubs than owning one!

 

That's awesome...glad you were able to spot your Dad.

[Fiale]

On 26/02/2016 at 21:02, 22A said:

When St John's Lane was used there was a hill nearby where 100s of people used to stand on to watch the game free.

The club erected posts up which screens could be raised on pulleys during games, so that increased attendances. To increase revenue further, adverts were placed on the screens. I've often wondered though which hill? It's named as Mutton Hill, but what do we know it as today please as I don't know that name.

Here is the ground, there is a rise behind the ground pretty visible - 

 

[cidered abroad]

7 hours ago, spudski said:

Some of you might like this footage I found from 1947...

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/boys-football/query/bristol+football

The old stand bombed out and before the Williams was built in 1951/53. How it was when I first went there.

[KernowRed]

20 hours ago, Fiale said:

Any reason you think they played North of north street and not South directly behind the Brewery as in the minutes ?

 

also why are the getting rid of the old website http://maps.bristol.gov.uk/knowyourplace/   and replacing it with http://maps.bristol.gov.uk/kyp/?edition= , the old version is so much easier to use and has lot's more options easily visible.

''Any reason you think they played North of north street and not South directly behind the Brewery as in the minutes ?''

Just thought it was apt due to the naming of the streets now there, of course you could be right to say they were South of North Street and will keep looking up press reports of Bristol South and Bristol South End.

[cidered abroad]

A bit of info about the film of boys playing on the pitch.

ABC was a cinema chain and ABC Minors were the boys and girls who went the Saturday morning cinema without their parents. The Rex in North Street was, I believe, an ABC cinema so the boys playing could have been Bemmy Boys or from all over Bristol.

[KernowRed]

42 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

A bit of info about the film of boys playing on the pitch.

ABC was a cinema chain and ABC Minors were the boys and girls who went the Saturday morning cinema without their parents. The Rex in North Street was, I believe, an ABC cinema so the boys playing could have been Bemmy Boys or from all over Bristol.

Went to both the Odeon and Rex cinemas on a Saturday morning, alternating each one on a whim. Can you remember Charlie, the doorman at the Odeon, his outfit was always too large for him?

What about the cinema in Cannon Street, proper fleapit with posts all over the place!

[cidered abroad]

1 hour ago, KernowRed said:

Went to both the Odeon and Rex cinemas on a Saturday morning, alternating each one on a whim. Can you remember Charlie, the doorman at the Odeon, his outfit was always too large for him?

What about the cinema in Cannon Street, proper fleapit with posts all over the place!

I lived in Filton so never went to either cinema for Saturday mornings. In fact I only ever went once to the Cabot because I had Saturday morning school.

[handsofclay]

I have had a chat with David Woods and here follows some useful info on this topic. I make no apologies for what I am about to impart:

Bristol South were formed in 1884 to play cricket. By 1888 they decided to have a football section too. Several of Bristol South End's first players were formerly Bristol South players. In an interesting letter in the Evening World duringCity's cup run in the mid 1930s, a high ranking official at the former Bristol South club claimed that Bristol South End were a continuation of that club.

The first competitive match played in South Bristol was the Glos FA v Somerset FA on 7 April, 1885 which drew a crowd of 600 to the Bedminster Cricket Club ground. GFA won 1-0.sSouthville's 1st match was on 15 Oct, 1887 when they beat Criterion 1-0 with a Jack McCarthy goal on their home ground of Bedminster Park...now called Greville Smyth Park. In goal that day for Southville was Charles Gyles. A lot of Gyles brothers played for Southville and then Bedminster. Fred Gyles went on to open a sports shop. He died on 2nd Dec, 1918.

Bedminster, from 1889 to 90 season, played at Greenway Bush Lane on the junction with North Street. In 1901 Wills built their tobacco factory on the site. From Feb onwards each season, due to the preparation needed for the cricket pitch, the football pitch had to be moved to the far side of the ground where there was a tremendous slope. Greenway Bush Lane aka The Coronation Rd Ground had a stand erected there in 1894, prior to this temporary stands were used for Big matches. The 1891-92 season ended at GBL with a fancy dress match which attracted 1,500. Photographs exist of the teams in fancy dress.

St.John's Lane cost 20 quid per annum to rent from the Ashton Court Estate for BSE. Bristol South End's 1st match was v Swindon Town there on 1 Sept, 1894. 3,500 were in attendance to see South End lose 2-4 to the champions of the west country. The crowd were entertained by the Bristol South Band conducted by George Godfrey. He remained in this role for 53 years entertaining Bristol South End and Bristol City crowds until his final bow on 23 Aug, 1947 when, appropriately, Southend United were the visitors!