Arsenal...

[Dave]

Which other English Club has an unbroken run in qualifying for the Champions League. 

It is quite funny how all season we have been hearing how great Spurs and their manager are, and that Arsenal and Arsene are rubbish. 

Well looking at the table seems to imply who was better. 

 

 

 

[JamesBCFC]

3 minutes ago, poland_exile said:

Arsenal should pack-up, leave England and tour the world playing meaningless friendlies to promote the game. That's what they're good at. When you talk about progress, what progress did they make in the champions league? once again, utterly outclassed. That's not progress. 

Outclassed by Barcelona, one of the best clubs in the world, hmm. Well they played well for most of the first leg, but were ultimately beaten, in the second leg arsenal played a very weakened team, so a defeat there was expected. Do you think any of the other English teams would have beaten Barca? I don't.

 On the other hand, Chelsea lost to a team that only ever has a difficult game when they play in europe, given how poor their league is, and who play a 34 year old as their main player. Man Utd went out in the group stage, but its arsenal who are the failures?

Utterly bizarre logic that losing to the best team in the world makes you a failure

[poland_exile]

5 minutes ago, City169 said:

Outclassed by Barcelona, one of the best clubs in the world, hmm. Well they played well for most of the first leg, but were ultimately beaten, in the second leg arsenal played a very weakened team, so a defeat there was expected. Do you think any of the other English teams would have beaten Barca? I don't.

 On the other hand, Chelsea lost to a team that only ever has a difficult game when they play in europe, given how poor their league is, and who play a 34 year old as their main player. Man Utd went out in the group stage, but its arsenal who are the failures?

Utterly bizarre logic that losing to the best team in the world makes you a failure

I don't think the logic is bizarre: run through their results - home losses to Olympiakos, Swansea, Watford, a thumping at Munich and Southampton, draws with the likes of Norwich and Hull. This is indefensible for a team with their resources. They've finished higher than the other big sides, but that's no reason to gloss over a season where they have once again failed to deliver due to the same, old reasons. 

[JamesBCFC]

6 minutes ago, poland_exile said:

I don't think the logic is bizarre: run through their results - home losses to Olympiakos, Swansea, Watford, a thumping at Munich and Southampton, draws with the likes of Norwich and Hull. This is indefensible for a team with their resources. They've finished higher than the other big sides, but that's no reason to gloss over a season where they have once again failed to deliver due to the same, old reasons. 

all of the 'big clubs' have had results like that this season, only difference is arsenal have taken a step forward, the others, bar spurs have all done worse. don't see any criticism going to the other teams though

man city- draw at villa, hammered by spurs, hammered at home to Liverpool, everton, draws against Norwich and Newcastle, beaten by Southampton.

Chelsea- well, the season speaks or itself, but lost to everton twice, Swansea, sunderland, Bournemouth (at home), west ham, Southampton, and more

you get my drift, man utd, spurs, all teams have these results

[poland_exile]

3 minutes ago, City169 said:

all of the 'big clubs' have had results like that this season, only difference is arsenal have taken a step forward, the others, bar spurs have all done worse. don't see any criticism going to the other teams though

personally think they are doomed to be the bridesmaid so long as wenger is allowed to bury his head in the sand, but that's my opinion. As for the other teams not getting criticism, i would completely disagree with the exception of Man City whose failings this season have largely been allowed to slip under the radar. One thing I'm not going to do mind, is end up arguing any more about bloody Arsenal  

[And Its Smith]

1 hour ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Just a quickie guys n gals....anyone else reckon the plonkers amongst the Arsenal fans who tried to 'hound' Wenger out with lame demos may feel a bit sheepish now they have finished second? 

His record speaks for itself, incredible.....yes of course they should have won the league more recently than they have but the guy has delivered nearly two consecutive decades of champions league football...and the criticism of Giroud, especially on here, is just unfounded rubbish, he scored 24 goals in all competitions this season....and he only started 38 games...

We have discussed Giroud before and I have been slightly critical.

Giroud is a top striker but what I have said, and continue to believe, is that he is not world class and he is not good enough to be the number one striker of a team trying to win in league and Champions League.

You can give me his goal stats if you want but when it really matters he often doesn't produce,. Look at this season.  Before today (another irrelevant game he did well in) he scored 3 in 17 at the business end of the season.  He started ten of those games.  If he was as good as you believe he'd be starting more than that. 

Thierry Henry said that you cannot win the league with Giroud as your number one striker and I couldn't agree more with him on that.  

As for Arsenal, failing to win the league AGAIN and losing out to Leicester is a poor season.  

[And Its Smith]

18 minutes ago, City169 said:

all of the 'big clubs' have had results like that this season, only difference is arsenal have taken a step forward, the others, bar spurs have all done worse. don't see any criticism going to the other teams though

man city- draw at villa, hammered by spurs, hammered at home to Liverpool, everton, draws against Norwich and Newcastle, beaten by Southampton.

Chelsea- well, the season speaks or itself, but lost to everton twice, Swansea, sunderland, Bournemouth (at home), west ham, Southampton, and more

you get my drift, man utd, spurs, all teams have these results

So it's okay for Arsenal to fail as long as others do?  Why do people start talking about other clubs, it's irrelevant.  

[JamesBCFC]

1 minute ago, RedDave said:

So it's okay for Arsenal to fail as long as others do?  Why do people start talking about other clubs, it's irrelevant.  

Not what I have said at all. Ive said arsenal aren't alone in this, but they are bearing the brunt of the criticism (for showing loyalty to a manager?!) despite the fact that they have actually progressed this season, while the other clubs have taken a step back.

[And Its Smith]

1 minute ago, City169 said:

Not what I have said at all. Ive said arsenal aren't alone in this, but they are bearing the brunt of the criticism (for showing loyalty to a manager?!) despite the fact that they have actually progressed this season, while the other clubs have taken a step back.

 Man City have been criticised and changed their manager.  Man Utd have been criticised and may well replace their manager.  Chelsea have been criticised and replaced their manager. 

I don't really understand your point.  

[JamesBCFC]

1 minute ago, RedDave said:

 Man City have been criticised and changed their manager.  Man Utd have been criticised and may well replace their manager.  Chelsea have been criticised and replaced their manager. 

I don't really understand your point.  

We have 1 thread here, its about arsenal and whether the fools trying to hound out their clubs most successful manager are having a rethink, we have quite a few on this thread criticising Arsenal for this season, I'm offering the fact that they have outperformed the other 'big' clubs, while spending less, but those people aren't criticising the other teams. 

Point clear enough now?

 

[And Its Smith]

7 minutes ago, City169 said:

We have 1 thread here, its about arsenal and whether the fools trying to hound out their clubs most successful manager are having a rethink, we have quite a few on this thread criticising Arsenal for this season, I'm offering the fact that they have outperformed the other 'big' clubs, while spending less, but those people aren't criticising the other teams. 

Point clear enough now?

 

But they HAVE criticised the other teams as I pointed out.  Those teams have changed their manager because they failed.  Wenger has failed again but will he be sacked ?  No

It's Wenger's choice to spend less.  The fact that he does that shouldn't then be used as a defence when he fails

[spudski]

Kinnel...some of the reasoning on this thread is completely bonkers.

Finishing second this season, and having been in the top 4 for pretty much all Wenger's Tenure...and people think that's failure!!!

Some of you need a check up from the neck up....seriously.

[JamesBCFC]

4 minutes ago, RedDave said:

But they HAVE criticised the other teams as I pointed out.  Those teams have changed their manager because they failed.  Wenger has failed again but will he be sacked ?  No

It's Wenger's choice to spend less.  The fact that he does that shouldn't then be used as a defence when he fails

Please highlight the criticism of other clubs in this thread for me then...

Wenger has made progress this season, a trophy and highest finish for 11 years, personally I think the fact arsenal don't spend £100 mil every season like chelsea, man city, man utd and liverpool, but manage to compete with them is bloody commendable.

Lets put it this way, either Wenger has picked fantastic players for the fraction of the money other clubs do, but they fail because of him, or he has a poor team and through his good management they are over achieving. You can't have it both ways.

[MigratedRobin]

Top four finish EVERY season that Wenger has been at the club! Silverware, new stadium, excitement every Saturday and some fans want him to leave? It's a funny old game.

[And Its Smith]

3 minutes ago, City169 said:

Please highlight the criticism of other clubs in this thread for me then...

Wenger has made progress this season, a trophy and highest finish for 11 years, personally I think the fact arsenal don't spend £100 mil every season like chelsea, man city, man utd and liverpool, but manage to compete with them is bloody commendable.

Lets put it this way, either Wenger has picked fantastic players for the fraction of the money other clubs do, but they fail because of him, or he has a poor team and through his good management they are over achieving. You can't have it both ways.

Sorry I thought you meant criticism in general rather than this specific thread.  

Wenger has failed slightly less this season than his previous failure seasons.  He aims to win the league every season so if he doesn't do that he is failing by definition.  He chooses to manage the club his way I.e spend a fraction of the budget available.  It might be commendable but it doesn't get away from the fact he has failed again.  

Your last paragraph is odd.  If he has poor players then that is his fault as he signed them.  If he has good players then well done on him for signing them but he is proving he cannot coach and manage them to the league.  So I can have it both ways.

 

[JamesBCFC]

10 minutes ago, RedDave said:

Sorry I thought you meant criticism in general rather than this specific thread.  

Wenger has failed slightly less this season than his previous failure seasons.  He aims to win the league every season so if he doesn't do that he is failing by definition.  He chooses to manage the club his way I.e spend a fraction of the budget available.  It might be commendable but it doesn't get away from the fact he has failed again.  

Your last paragraph is odd.  If he has poor players then that is his fault as he signed them.  If he has good players then well done on him for signing them but he is proving he cannot coach and manage them to the league.  So I can have it both ways.

 

but if he has the poor players then his good management is making them overachieve, so no you cant.

 

edit- to add on to the spending, wenger has shown he will spend the money on quality with the purchases of sanchez and ozil. part of the issue for clubs is there are now a lot of weak league where there is 1 or 2 clubs with all the money, which is why teams like PSG (and before the owner got bored Anzhi) can hoover up quality players. by signing there you are pretty much guaranteed 3 trophies a season, plus £250k a week, whereas joining arsenal you would actually have competition

[And Its Smith]

9 minutes ago, City169 said:

but if he has the poor players then his good management is making them overachieve, so no you cant.

Haha he signed every player at that club.  Why is he signing poor players??!  Lost his eye for a player.  

His team are better than Leicester...on paper.  Ranieri is a better manager I guess.

 

[JamesBCFC]

5 minutes ago, RedDave said:

Haha he signed every player at that club.  Why is he signing poor players??!  Lost his eye for a player.  

His team are better than Leicester...on paper.  Ranieri is a better manager I guess.

 

well the signing of players would be a mix of him and his scouting team, both for the good and bad signings. even so, there are a limited number of world class players, and many of them are signing for teams in less competitive league. but once again, Arsenal came second this year, but do they have the second best squad? I'd say no, Man City and Chelsea definitely have stronger squads, Man Utd, Liverpool and spurs are all arguable roughly the same, slightly stronger or slightly weaker, so going on squad strength arsenal should be 3rd-6th/7th. Must be that Wenger is a better manager than Pellegrini, Mourinho, van Gaal, Guus Hiddink, Klopp, Rodgers then using your logic.

And for what its worth, Ranieri is a top manager, couldn't believe it when he went to Leciester

[And Its Smith]

4 minutes ago, City169 said:

well the signing of players would be a mix of him and his scouting team, both for the good and bad signings. even so, there are a limited number of world class players, and many of them are signing for teams in less competitive league. but once again, Arsenal came second this year, but do they have the second best squad? I'd say no, Man City and Chelsea definitely have stronger squads, Man Utd, Liverpool and spurs are all arguable roughly the same, slightly stronger or slightly weaker, so going on squad strength arsenal should be 3rd-6th/7th. Must be that Wenger is a better manager than Pellegrini, Mourinho, van Gaal, Guus Hiddink, Klopp, Rodgers then using your logic.

And for what its worth, Ranieri is a top manager, couldn't believe it when he went to Leciester

They didn't win the league again and little Leicester did. If you don't think that's a failure then I can't help you!! 

Why do Wenger defenders always bring the other 'big' teams into it?  Will Wenger EVER win the league again?  

[poland_exile]

I can’t resist getting involved again. The problem with Arsenal is that once again their season has been defined by Wenger’s parsimony, his insistence on not filling gaping weaknesses in the squad, another disastrous run of injuries (surely, this is more than bad luck?), a lack of fight and backbone in the squad, poor results when they’ve had to step up and grind out, meek cup exits, a lack of penetration, and a grim loyalty to players who clearly fall below the world class standard.

This is not acceptable from a club that charge among the highest ticket prices in Europe (and possibly the world?). Neither is it a one-off. It has been the story of their season time and time again. I loved Roy Keane’s quote about this being a side more interested in their six packs and selfies, and I think that’s more than just a deft one-liner.

For the record, I think Arsene Wenger is a fantastic manager, and one that has completely transformed the English game. But I think he needs to move on. Being pedantic, yes Arsenal have progressed on paper, but have they progressed in terms of eradicating the faults that have repeatedly cost them the title. The answer to that is no, and I would be surprised if they rectify them with Wenger in charge. 

I'd love to see Wenger do a Ranieri and return to England one day to win the title with an outsider, but right now it's pretty hard to imagine him ever winning the prem again with Arsenal.     

[And Its Smith]

I've got a performance review tomorrow.  If my boss isn't happy with me then I might start talking about my colleagues who have been worse than me.  The sign of a winner that is!  

[JamesBCFC]

6 minutes ago, RedDave said:

They didn't win the league again and little Leicester did. If you don't think that's a failure then I can't help you!! 

Why do Wenger defenders always bring the other 'big' teams into it?  Will Wenger EVER win the league again?  

is making progress a good thing or not? if you don't think a best finish in 11 years and a trophy isprogress then I cant help you!!

in the 2 seasons before wenger got the job, arsenal were 12th and 5th. Even in his worst season they have beaten that!

Why do wenger bashers always ignore the fact that they let off other clubs for the same criticisms they make of arsenal and wenger?

 

[And Its Smith]

1 minute ago, City169 said:

is making progress a good thing or not? if you don't think a best finish in 11 years and a trophy is good then I cant help you!!

in the 2 seasons before wenger got the job, arsenal were 12th and 5th. Even in his worst season they have beaten that!

Why do wenger bashers always ignore the fact that they let off other clubs for the same criticisms they make of arsenal and wenger?

 

They finished ten points off the lead.  Two seasons ago they finished seven points alway.  Quality progress being made!!!

I've criticised all the other teams as well just so you know.  

[JamesBCFC]

3 minutes ago, RedDave said:

They finished ten points off the lead.  Two seasons ago they finished seven points alway.  Quality progress being made!!!

I've criticised all the other teams as well just so you know.  

but they were still closer to Leicester than anyone else, and were one of only 2 teams to beat Leicester, being the source of 2 of their 3 defeats.  So surely out of the top clubs getting criticism, they should get the least, given that they 'failed' least?

Once again, Wengers WORST season was better than the 2 years previous, and match the BEST of the 5 years before he got the job. Arsenal fans wanting him out are probably forgetting the turgid football, largely without success for the half decade beforehand.

[And Its Smith]

2 minutes ago, City169 said:

but they were still closer to Leicester than anyone else, and were one of only 2 teams to beat Leicester, being the source of 2 of their 3 defeats.  So surely out of the top clubs getting criticism, they should get the least, given that they 'failed' least?

Once again, Wengers WORST season was better than the 2 years previous, and match the BEST of the 5 years before he got the job. Arsenal fans wanting him out are probably forgetting the turgid football, largely without success for the half decade beforehand.

Still talking about other teams?!

winner!!

[poland_exile]

one of the reasons why people are focusing on Wenger's and Arsenal's failings rather than, say, Chelsea or Man City, is because this thread has the title 'Arsenal' and is indeed about Arsenal. 

[And Its Smith]

50 minutes ago, spudski said:

Kinnel...some of the reasoning on this thread is completely bonkers.

Finishing second this season, and having been in the top 4 for pretty much all Wenger's Tenure...and people think that's failure!!!

Some of you need a check up from the neck up....seriously.

If you aim to win something and don't achieve it then you have failed.  To repeat that failure for over 10 seasons is most definitely a poor return.  

You think Arsenal finishing below Leicester is not failure?  

 

[simon uk]

6 hours ago, RedDave said:

If you aim to win something and don't achieve it then you have failed.  To repeat that failure for over 10 seasons is most definitely a poor return.  

You think Arsenal finishing below Leicester is not failure?  

 

It is failure, i cant believe arsenal fans are so happy with finishing above spurs who will be back next season, and did actually progress.

The one excuse i will offer though is that for arsenal to really progress they need to be looking at a few really top players, who arsenal just arent going to attract. If they sign 3, say hummels, pogba and lewandowski, that would make the difference, but they  just arent going to get those players, regardless of if they could afford the transfer fee, and neither is anyone else in england.

[Major Isewater]

Arsenal, is n't it ? Would n't they ? Marvelous.

[David Brent]

8 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

I agree he can be seen as stubborn at times but his record at unearthing players nobody has heard of and then turning them into world class players is admirable ....... eg Thierry Henry and Cesc Fabegas....and he plucked Giroud from the same level at which we found Kodjia...

That is not completely true btw. Giroud  was top scorer in Ligue 1 before he signed for Arsenal.

I don't think Wenger has been as successful in finding players in recent seasons. I guess most leagues, especially France, are scouted extensively by other clubs too. Perhaps 10 years ago the likes of Kante etc.. would've been signing for Arsenal.