Arsenal...

[spudski]

7 hours ago, RedDave said:

'If you aim to win something and don't achieve it then you have failed.  To repeat that failure for over 10 seasons is most definitely a poor return.  

You think Arsenal finishing below Leicester is not failure?  

 

Mate...seriously...I'm not going to acknowledge this with an answer...have a word with yourself....think about what you're implying.

This thread is like listening to this lot...

 

[downendcity]

From we are , as long suffering Bristol City supporters, what Arsenal have achieved in the last 10 years would be seen as tremendous success and something we can only dream of.

However, from where Arsenal were 10 years ago, I can understand why their fans see the last decade as one of continually falling short. While there was a financial impact by funding the new stadium, Wenger does now seem to cling on to the belief that he can continue to unearth gems in the transfer market without the need to spend much of massive pot of transfer money that has been available to him for some time. 

Arsenal's achèvements have to measured against their peer group - teams like Man U , Man City and Chelsea. Being brutal, they also have to measure themselves against continental rivals like Real Madrid, Barca and Bayern. Football is a different business at their level, with massive amounts of money involved both in player wages and transfer fees and also on the revenue side, with Tv money, shirt sales, sponsorship and expanding fan base abroad. Arsenal's problem is that compared to their major European rivals, not only have they not been winning trophies, they squeeze their fans financially till the pips are dry, with among the highest ticket prices in Europe. No wonder fans feel aggrieved.

Arsenal, and Wenger, seem to have become more concerned with the club as a business success, rather than giving fans the success they crave by actually winning things. Whilst not quite the right example, Newcastle could be a good example of this, as while fans are in despair at relegation to the championship, Ashley has made quite a business success of them in the process.

Guardiola will take over a club that has also finished in the top 4 in recent seasons ( albeit winning the league only a few season's ago) but as pointed out on MOTD last night, how many of the team that finished this season will start next? Gradual will do what is necessary to win trophies, not just to finish top 4. Will the same be true of Arsenal?

 

 

[JamesBCFC]

10 minutes ago, downendcity said:

From we are , as long suffering Bristol City supporters, what Arsenal have achieved in the last 10 years would be seen as tremendous success and something we can only dream of.

However, from where Arsenal were 10 years ago, I can understand why their fans see the last decade as one of continually falling short. While there was a financial impact by funding the new stadium, Wenger does now seem to cling on to the belief that he can continue to unearth gems in the transfer market without the need to spend much of massive pot of transfer money that has been available to him for some time. 

Arsenal's achèvements have to measured against their peer group - teams like Man U , Man City and Chelsea. Being brutal, they also have to measure themselves against continental rivals like Real Madrid, Barca and Bayern. Football is a different business at their level, with massive amounts of money involved both in player wages and transfer fees and also on the revenue side, with Tv money, shirt sales, sponsorship and expanding fan base abroad. Arsenal's problem is that compared to their major European rivals, not only have they not been winning trophies, they squeeze their fans financially till the pips are dry, with among the highest ticket prices in Europe. No wonder fans feel aggrieved.

Arsenal, and Wenger, seem to have become more concerned with the club as a business success, rather than giving fans the success they crave by actually winning things. Whilst not quite the right example, Newcastle could be a good example of this, as while fans are in despair at relegation to the championship, Ashley has made quite a business success of them in the process.

Guardiola will take over a club that has also finished in the top 4 in recent seasons ( albeit winning the league only a few season's ago) but as pointed out on MOTD last night, how many of the team that finished this season will start next? Gradual will do what is necessary to win trophies, not just to finish top 4. Will the same be true of Arsenal?

 

 

This is effectively what I have been saying on this thread, with the added part that Arsenal compare favourably to those sides this season.

2nd part isn't particularly true, with 4 trophies in the last 3 seasons (Fa Cup, Fa cup and charity shield, charity shield.)

 

[Murraysrightplum]

Slightly off topic but AVB got 2 more points than pochetino and then got sacked!

[And Its Smith]

24 minutes ago, downendcity said:

From we are , as long suffering Bristol City supporters, what Arsenal have achieved in the last 10 years would be seen as tremendous success and something we can only dream of.

However, from where Arsenal were 10 years ago, I can understand why their fans see the last decade as one of continually falling short. While there was a financial impact by funding the new stadium, Wenger does now seem to cling on to the belief that he can continue to unearth gems in the transfer market without the need to spend much of massive pot of transfer money that has been available to him for some time. 

Arsenal's achèvements have to measured against their peer group - teams like Man U , Man City and Chelsea. Being brutal, they also have to measure themselves against continental rivals like Real Madrid, Barca and Bayern. Football is a different business at their level, with massive amounts of money involved both in player wages and transfer fees and also on the revenue side, with Tv money, shirt sales, sponsorship and expanding fan base abroad. Arsenal's problem is that compared to their major European rivals, not only have they not been winning trophies, they squeeze their fans financially till the pips are dry, with among the highest ticket prices in Europe. No wonder fans feel aggrieved.

Arsenal, and Wenger, seem to have become more concerned with the club as a business success, rather than giving fans the success they crave by actually winning things. Whilst not quite the right example, Newcastle could be a good example of this, as while fans are in despair at relegation to the championship, Ashley has made quite a business success of them in the process.

Guardiola will take over a club that has also finished in the top 4 in recent seasons ( albeit winning the league only a few season's ago) but as pointed out on MOTD last night, how many of the team that finished this season will start next? Gradual will do what is necessary to win trophies, not just to finish top 4. Will the same be true of Arsenal?

 

 

Fine, compare them to other teams and they are behind all of them over the last 10 years.  A long way behind.  

I don't know why @City169 is just looking at this season.  

@spudski hasn't got a reply which must be a first!

[JamesBCFC]

1 minute ago, RedDave said:

Fine, compare them to other teams and they are behind all of them over the last 10 years.  A long way behind.  

I don't know why @City169 is just looking at this season.  

@spudski hasn't got a reply which must be a first!

because the thread was about this season?

I also looked back to before Wenger, when arsenal lurched from 4th/5th to mid table. conveniently ignored though

[ashton_fan]

11 hours ago, simon uk said:

    Wenger has had a great record, but for anyone to say they have had a great season by finishing ahead of spurs, but second, is a fallacy. They were again a mile away from winning the league, and failed to recruit sufficient quality to threaten, when the league was theirs to win. When you see teams like athletico madrid not spending really massive money but still amongst the best teams in europe, it just shows that arsenal are some way off that, and if arsenal fans arent happy with that they have the right to make their feelings known imho.

Man U and Chelsea can only dream of coming second. Also Arsenal always make a profit, other teams will have ups and downs as their financial position changes but Arsenal are consistent as they live within their means.

[And Its Smith]

13 minutes ago, City169 said:

because the thread was about this season?

I also looked back to before Wenger, when arsenal lurched from 4th/5th to mid table. conveniently ignored though

Why did we sack Steve Cotterill then as we were higher than when he came here?

 

[HoldenBall]

21 minutes ago, Murraysrightplum said:

Slightly off topic but AVB got 2 more points than pochetino and then got sacked!

Yeah but AVB had a ready made world class talent in Gareth Bale winning him game after game. Pochettino has had to build a side that came 6th the season before he took over.

[And Its Smith]

5 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

Man U and Chelsea can only dream of coming second. Also Arsenal always make a profit, other teams will have ups and downs as their financial position changes but Arsenal are consistent as they live within their means.

Chelsea won the league 12 months ago.  United won the league 3 years ago.  Both have won the Champions League in recent history.  

They don't have to dream as their success is reality.  

[JamesBCFC]

1 minute ago, RedDave said:

Why did we sack Steve Cotterill then as we were higher than when he came here?

 

Because we were heading down. All clubs want to make progress, we progressed under cotterill, but were regressing.

Seeing as arsenal just improved on their previous finish, that's a non starter.

You could say arsenal had regressed for a while under wenger, but again, he still provided them with top 4, and for a good while of that he wasn't spending so the club would be able to fund the new stadium build, and now, arsenal are progressing again.

[HoldenBall]

And on Arsenal, 2 Fa cups in 11 years.. If I was an Arsenal fan I'd be crying out for a change, the clubs gone completely stale.. I know the Wenger fans also say he qualifies for the champions league.. great, there's more chance of City winning the Fa cup then Arsenal winning the champions league. If you think about it Arsene has only won 3 premier league titles in 20 years.. is that really a great achievement?

What's the worst that can happen if he leaves? Seriously? A season without champions league maybe? They're not going to get relegated are they..

 

[Super]

2 minutes ago, Iron Man said:

And on Arsenal, 2 Fa cups in 11 years.. If I was an Arsenal fan I'd be crying out for a change, the clubs gone completely stale.. I know the Wenger fans also say he qualifies for the champions league.. great, there's more chance of City winning the Fa cup then Arsenal winning the champions league.

What's the worst that can happen if he leaves? Seriously? A season without champions league maybe? They're not going to get relegated are they.

 

They have probably seen what a joke United have become since Ferguson left.

[glynriley]

For all those lauding the progress made by Arsenal this season, their points total in the last 4 season are as follows

71,75,79,73

They've done worse than the the last 3 seasons., so little progress on that score. Of course the bean counters won't care, it's a football club run as a business,something I thought our fans hated from posts on here.

The fans however aren't happy with the occasional FA Cup and Charity Shield. 11 years without a title is the problem for Wenger.

 

 

[HoldenBall]

4 minutes ago, Super said:

They have probably seen what a joke United have become since Ferguson left.

Well they got champions league last year. Which seems to be Arsenals ambitions.

[And Its Smith]

8 minutes ago, City169 said:

Because we were heading down. All clubs want to make progress, we progressed under cotterill, but were regressing.

Seeing as arsenal just improved on their previous finish, that's a non starter.

You could say arsenal had regressed for a while under wenger, but again, he still provided them with top 4, and for a good while of that he wasn't spending so the club would be able to fund the new stadium build, and now, arsenal are progressing again.

They progressed because Tottenham bottled the last four games?  Good old Wenger progressing them to further away from the title than two years ago.  

Wenger said finishing top four is like winning a trophy.  That shows his non winning mentality 

[spudski]

14 minutes ago, RedDave said:

Fine, compare them to other teams and they are behind all of them over the last 10 years.  A long way behind.  

I don't know why @City169 is just looking at this season.  

@spudski hasn't got a reply which must be a first!

I'll bite...I do have a reply, but feel it will be wasted on you...with respect, do a bit of research on their stats compared to other clubs in that Division.

They are consistently in the top 4 and Champions league...better than any team in the history of the Prem.

It's about being consistently good. No point winning it and tailing off the next season.

Every season is different and teams are getting stronger.

Success can be measured in many ways...

Many people in business and sport, would prefer to be consistently good at what they do, in the top %'s...rather than be number 1 one year, then tail off again.

Arsenal are a stable Club with a great manager....consistently good.

It's only the joke fans like on that video who can't see it.

Ask any Club owner, footballer or people who work in the game, and say to them 'I can guarantee you the seasons Wenger has given Arsenal' and they'd snap your hand off.

[And Its Smith]

2 minutes ago, spudski said:

I'll bite...I do have a reply, but feel it will be wasted on you...with respect, do a bit of research on their stats compared to other clubs in that Division.

They are consistently in the top 4 and Champions league...better than any team in the history of the Prem.

It's about being consistently good. No point winning it and tailing off the next season.

Every season is different and teams are getting stronger.

Success can be measured in many ways...

Many people in business and sport, would prefer to be consistently good at what they do, in the top %'s...rather than be number 1 one year, then tail off again.

Arsenal are a stable Club with a great manager....consistently good.

It's only the joke fans like on that video who can't see it.

Ask any Club owner, footballer or people who work in the game, and say to them 'I can guarantee you the seasons Wenger has given Arsenal' and they'd snap your hand off.

Would you rather our club finished 3rd, 4th, 3rd, 4th, 2nd etc or would you rather be up and down like Chelsea but those ups included League titles and Champions Leagues?

I would be very surprised if anyone chose the former.

[JamesBCFC]

2 minutes ago, RedDave said:

They progressed because Tottenham bottled the last four games?  Good old Wenger progressing them to further away from the title than two years ago.  

Wenger said finishing top four is like winning a trophy.  That shows his non winning mentality 

and just how old is that quote? I believe that's from when they were funding the emirates.

So spurs bottled it, but that didn't hand it over to arsenal, they still needed to do their part which was to win their remaining game. Maybe they had an easy game against villa, but spurs had an easy game against Newcastle and were demolished by 10 men.

[Super]

5 minutes ago, Iron Man said:

Well they got champions league last year. Which seems to be Arsenals ambitions.

I agree with that. Trouble is now there doesn't seem many top managers are available.

[spudski]

4 minutes ago, RedDave said:

Would you rather our club finished 3rd, 4th, 3rd, 4th, 2nd etc or would you rather be up and down like Chelsea but those ups included League titles and Champions Leagues?

I would be very surprised if anyone chose the former.

The former...I'd want stability, with measured success...you know under Wenger, you are not going to struggle, will see European football, be Entertained and watch good football.

[JamesBCFC]

2 minutes ago, RedDave said:

Would you rather our club finished 3rd, 4th, 3rd, 4th, 2nd etc or would you rather be up and down like Chelsea but those ups included League titles and Champions Leagues?

I would be very surprised if anyone chose the former.

on the other hand, would you like to be like Wigan and win the fa cup, but be in league 1 2 years later? or Portsmouth, or Bolton who went all out for Europe and came bloody close to folding, Newcastle spending 80 million to be relegated, or Birmingham, winning the league cup and relegated

what about Everton, under Moyes they were consistent and gradually moved up the league, now under Martinez they had a good season followed by a really poor one. Stability at a club is a huge thing.

[Super]

8 minutes ago, spudski said:

I'll bite...I do have a reply, but feel it will be wasted on you...with respect, do a bit of research on their stats compared to other clubs in that Division.

They are consistently in the top 4 and Champions league...better than any team in the history of the Prem.

It's about being consistently good. No point winning it and tailing off the next season.

Every season is different and teams are getting stronger.

Success can be measured in many ways...

Many people in business and sport, would prefer to be consistently good at what they do, in the top %'s...rather than be number 1 one year, then tail off again.

Arsenal are a stable Club with a great manager....consistently good.

It's only the joke fans like on that video who can't see it.

Ask any Club owner, footballer or people who work in the game, and say to them 'I can guarantee you the seasons Wenger has given Arsenal' and they'd snap your hand off.

Or you could say they consistently win nothing. Finishing in the top 4 every season should not be classed as success. I mean it's not as if they are getting close to winning the Champions League.

[And Its Smith]

Serial winner Arsene Wenger.

[BS4 on Tour...]

2 hours ago, Libertine1 said:

That is not completely true btw. Giroud  was top scorer in Ligue 1 before he signed for Arsenal.

I don't think Wenger has been as successful in finding players in recent seasons. I guess most leagues, especially France, are scouted extensively by other clubs too. Perhaps 10 years ago the likes of Kante etc.. would've been signing for Arsenal.

 

You're right, thanks for pointing it out.

I'd forgotten he went from Grenoble to Montpellier - but he was top scorer in both those divisions with those clubs...

[JamesBCFC]

9 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

You're right, thanks for pointing it out.

I'd forgotten he went from Grenoble to Montpellier - but he was top scorer in both those divisions with those clubs...

I think the fact that gets used is he was the last top scorer in ligue 2 to be brought to the English leagues before kodjia, though a couple of others that have been player of the year in ligue 2 (I think Sakho off the top of my head, but could be wrong). incidentally, both Giroud and Kodjia won the player of the season in ligue 2 as well

perhaps following on from that we should look at famara diedfiou who got 21 goals (8 penalties!)

[HoldenBall]

11 minutes ago, Super said:

I agree with that. Trouble is now there doesn't seem many top managers are available.

They should of done everything in their power to get Guardiola, he's perfect for Arsenal in terms of the way they play. Simeone isn't suited to Arsenal imo so it looks like they're stuck with Wenger forever.

[cider-manc]

12 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Fair comment, but this season he has delivered what Chelsea, Liverpool, Man City, Man Utd and Spurs would have regarded as a fantastic season...

I can tell you that Manchester United and Manchester City fans do not consider coming second a great season any more.

Coming second for clubs such as these is a failure. Coming first is all that matters.

 

[BS4 on Tour...]

4 hours ago, cider-manc said:

I can tell you that Manchester United and Manchester City fans do not consider coming second a great season any more.

Coming second for clubs such as these is a failure. Coming first is all that matters.

 

Fair enough, I get that totally, but compared to the seasons they've had, coming second would surely be considered fantastic...

[BigTone]

4 hours ago, cider-manc said:

. Coming first is all that matters.

 

Tell that to your Mrs