WTFiGO!?! Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 1 hour ago, LondonBristolian said: The problem with stepping up treatment and care of people with mental health impairments, vital though it is, is that it costs money. It's really hard to achieve results on a shoestring and anyone who works in mental health will tell you how appalling under-resourced mental health care is in this country and that it is getting worse and worse. Until we accept that this is something we need to spend money on, and that this might well take spending public money to do so, it will be hard to achieve change. Another issue, of course, is the intangibility of mental health care outcomes and the transient nature of it's treatment. Our understanding of mental health is still relatively primitive with research continually changing our approach. The funding of physical care is a much surer investment, we know what we're paying for. Mental health is a whole, more complex, field. Anyhoo, what a shattering event all around. Rest in Peace Jo Cox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC Jimmer Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 1 hour ago, Fiale said: No respect in your post, so why even pretend - your entitled to your prejudices but this is not the thread to do it. I actually apologise for that reply. I have been drinking all day for the football and when i saw the news emotions were running high. Sorry again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiale Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 15 minutes ago, Collis1 said: I actually apologise for that reply. I have been drinking all day for the football and when i saw the news emotions were running high. Sorry again. No problem, I am not unknown to fall foul after a few drinks myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sheene Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 A young mum who dedicated her working life to making the world a better place and who stood up for what she believed in. Whatever your political beliefs we should all take a moment to think about her young family and hope that they can one day they find the strength to be proud of their Mum. Rip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 12 hours ago, Southstandoriginal said: You can't assume any such thing yet. He might be a random nutter who didn't know her from Adam, or it may have been political. We just don't know yet. Which is wonderfully ironic given the likes of BF are first to lay the boot in on any attack that's related to Islam or Isis without any facts. I hope it does prove to be an isolated incident completely unrelated to any organisation otherwise the media/press need a big wake up call and need to stop peddling hate and divide in this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 5 minutes ago, Big Brother said: Perhaps it would be more appropriate to discuss such issues in a separate thread? Sure, Ill make sure to split any topic laying the boot into Islam straight after an attack with no clear facts to hand then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted June 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 16 minutes ago, Tomarse said: Which is wonderfully ironic given the likes of BF are first to lay the boot in on any attack that's related to Islam or Isis without any facts. I hope it does prove to be an isolated incident completely unrelated to any organisation otherwise the media/press need a big wake up call and need to stop peddling hate and divide in this country. Some MP's don't help mind you, probably been drinking all day for the football. http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/london-labour-mp-criticised-for-politicising-death-of-jo-cox-a3274136.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 3 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said: Some MP's don't help mind you, probably been drinking all day for the football. http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/london-labour-mp-criticised-for-politicising-death-of-jo-cox-a3274136.html MPs are definitely part of the problem. This is as BB says perhaps a different topic. It's certainly not helping a country divided to almost hateful levels with differing views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screech Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 Reports suggest that the Britain first link is not true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 1 hour ago, screech said: Reports suggest that the Britain first link is not true The report is he shouted "Why don't you put Britain first?!" so that is probably why some people jumped to a conclusion. I don't want to prejudge the inquiries, but this and Orlando seem yet more evidence of how mentally ill and unstable people can be influenced by what they read and hear. The Spectator had a blog saying this more eloquently than I could: http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/a-day-of-infamy/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS2 Red Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 1 hour ago, screech said: Reports suggest that the Britain first link is not true Not according to the actual witnesses. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3646408/Gas-fitter-insists-Jo-Cox-killer-DID-shout-Britain-shot-MP-Testimony-closest-witness-murder-provides-compelling-account-death.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted June 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 19 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said: The report is he shouted "Why don't you put Britain first?!" so that is probably why some people jumped to a conclusion. I don't want to prejudge the inquiries, but this and Orlando seem yet more evidence of how mentally ill and unstable people can be influenced by what they read and hear. The Spectator had a blog saying this more eloquently than I could: http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/a-day-of-infamy/ Exactly this RR, the bigger question needs to be in the case of Orlando how such an obviously dangerous man was allowed access to such powerful weapons 50 people dead and only needed to reload once FFS and in the case of yesterday how this man got hold of a firearm. And on a wider issue the UK needs to return to one of it's seemingly long forgotten traditions of 'investigate without fear or favour'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted June 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 15 minutes ago, BS2 Red said: Not according to the actual witnesses. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3646408/Gas-fitter-insists-Jo-Cox-killer-DID-shout-Britain-shot-MP-Testimony-closest-witness-murder-provides-compelling-account-death.html re read this, the witness added an or, as in, Said he heard MP's attacker shout 'Britain first', or 'put Britain first' . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS2 Red Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 2 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said: re read this, the witness added an or, as in, Said he heard MP's attacker shout 'Britain first', or 'put Britain first' . Seems pretty clear what the murderer was supporting. He might not have been a member of Britain First itself, but he certainly supported the same aims as that vile group. I'm not blaming Britain First personally, I don't think even they would go so far as to send out murderers, this guy must be severely mentally ill, but the rhetoric from BF style groups has obviously contributed to his mindset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted June 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 4 minutes ago, BS2 Red said: Seems pretty clear what the murderer was supporting. He might not have been a member of Britain First itself, but he certainly supported the same aims as that vile group. I'm not blaming Britain First personally, I don't think even they would go so far as to send out murderers, this guy must be severely mentally ill, but the rhetoric from BF style groups has obviously contributed to his mindset. in the same way that some muslims are radicalised at mosques, so what is your answer to this?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS2 Red Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 3 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said: in the same way that some muslims are radicalised at mosques, so what is your answer to this?. What's this got to do with Muslims? A guy murders an MP while shouting "Britain first" or "put Britain first" and somehow the dialogue gets shifted to Muslims? To answer you, we either have to allow every group to spout their hatred or we allow none of them to. I don't care if it's a Muslim guy preaching hate against the West or a white guy preaching hate against immigrants. Both are equally vile and both lead to tragedy. I'm more in the stop all hate speech camp, but I can see why people are concerned by freedom of speech issues. It's hard to judge exactly where to draw the line between free speech and hate speech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted June 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 3 minutes ago, BS2 Red said: What's this got to do with Muslims? A guy murders an MP while shouting "Britain first" or "put Britain first" and somehow the dialogue gets shifted to Muslims? To answer you, we either have to allow every group to spout their hatred or we allow none of them to. I don't care if it's a Muslim guy preaching hate against the West or a white guy preaching hate against immigrants. Both are equally vile and both lead to tragedy. I'm more in the stop all hate speech camp, but I can see why people are concerned by freedom of speech issues. It's hard to judge exactly where to draw the line between free speech and hate speech. and so am I and in the spirit of freedom of speech I sought to make the analogy that you take issue with in your first sentence. Let us not forget your statement in reply to Screech, which is clearly not what the report says, although from it's headline I can understand why people might assume that view. 2 hours ago, screech said: Reports suggest that the Britain first link is not true Not according to the actual witnesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screech Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 36 minutes ago, BS2 Red said: Not according to the actual witnesses. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3646408/Gas-fitter-insists-Jo-Cox-killer-DID-shout-Britain-shot-MP-Testimony-closest-witness-murder-provides-compelling-account-death.html I was listening to LBC this morning and they interviewed a guy who I think owned a launderette in the area, he said he made it clear that he never tackled the person nor heard the guy shout this. Unfortunately the media on this occasion decided they had what was a better story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS2 Red Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 10 minutes ago, screech said: I was listening to LBC this morning and they interviewed a guy who I think owned a launderette in the area, he said he made it clear that he never tackled the person nor heard the guy shout this. Unfortunately the media on this occasion decided they had what was a better story. That link I posted literally has a video of a witness who heard the murderer say it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS2 Red Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 13 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said: and so am I and in the spirit of freedom of speech I sought to make the analogy that you take issue with in your first sentence. Let us not forget your statement in reply to Screech, which is clearly not what the report says, although from it's headline I can understand why people might assume that view. Not according to the actual witnesses. Whether it's "Britain first" or "put Britain first" it's pretty clear what the sentiment of the guy who carried out killing was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screech Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 6 minutes ago, BS2 Red said: That link I posted literally has a video of a witness who heard the murderer say it. That's fair enough, I heard that on the radio this morning that's all. The guy was pretty miffed that he had been quoted, when he never said such a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted June 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 11 minutes ago, BS2 Red said: Whether it's "Britain first" or "put Britain first" it's pretty clear what the sentiment of the guy who carried out killing was. Well if you say so, I would rather wait to hear the full truth and that might be a long wait until the trial and the media will still need stories to feed such sensationalism, me I have no idea what his motives are or whether any one organisation influenced him. As I speculated yesterday most of these cases of politicians being attacked are not normally random and often surround a failed complaint to said politician and a build up of hatred of feeling betrayed, do I know this is case? absolutely not but by the same thought process I do not know whether your speculation is correct either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC Jimmer Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 17 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said: Well if you say so, I would rather wait to hear the full truth and that might be a long wait until the trial and the media will still need stories to feed such sensationalism, me I have no idea what his motives are or whether any one organisation influenced him. As I speculated yesterday most of these cases of politicians being attacked are not normally random and often surround a failed complaint to said politician and a build up of hatred of feeling betrayed, do I know this is case? absolutely not but by the same thought process I do not know whether your speculation is correct either. Errr there is already evidence out there that this guy is far right/neo nazi. Given Jo's opinion on wanting to allow migrants and refugess into the UK it doesn't take Sherlock to speculate at the motivation of the attack? Of course, we dont know for sure but I think its fair for people to assume! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted June 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 3 minutes ago, Collis1 said: Errr there is already evidence out there that this guy is far right/neo nazi. Given Jo's opinion on wanting to allow migrants and refugess into the UK it doesn't take Sherlock to speculate at the motivation of the attack? Of course, we dont know for sure but I think its fair for people to assume! Show us then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC Jimmer Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 11 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said: Show us then. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jo-cox-shooting-suspect-quiet-8212246 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screech Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 12 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said: Show us then. This will be interesting.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted June 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 3 minutes ago, Collis1 said: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jo-cox-shooting-suspect-quiet-8212246 A piece in the Mirror pretty lifted from the Daily Mail, must be true then. 2 minutes ago, screech said: This will be interesting.... incredible how all of the UK media is trashed by this guy but he then uses them to prove his point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonBristolian Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 3 hours ago, Esmond Million's Bung said: Some MP's don't help mind you, probably been drinking all day for the football. http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/london-labour-mp-criticised-for-politicising-death-of-jo-cox-a3274136.html Pretty sure the person who shot and stabbed someone whilst, according to eyewitnesses, shouting "Britain First" was the one who politicised her death. A politician being killed is, by its nature, political and, whilst one hopes most people will allow time to air grief before starting that discussion choose their words carefully so as not to blame people who are in no way responsible, it is impossible to get past a political element here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted June 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 3 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said: Pretty sure the person who shot and stabbed someone whilst, according to eyewitnesses, shouting "Britain First" was the one who politicised it. Ah right so that opens it up for a free for all?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted June 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 I very rarely agree with Polly Toynbee but she is right with this piece, my only addition would be that both sides of the argument are too blame for the toxic tone of the Brexit debate it has been a national disgrace. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/16/mood-ugly-mp-dead-jo-cox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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