Tragic

[Portland Bill]

[screech]

22 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

The report is he shouted "Why don't you put Britain first?!" so that is probably why some people jumped to a conclusion.

I don't want to prejudge the inquiries, but this and Orlando seem yet more evidence of how mentally ill and unstable people can be influenced by what they read and hear.

The Spectator had a blog saying this more eloquently than I could:

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/a-day-of-infamy/

Just read that piece and I think It's a one eyed view of this Robbo, the rhetoric from both sides has been nasty. Little Englanders, closet racists, bigots, pulling up the drawbridge etc etc. Imagine being an old age pensioner and you see the chancellor threatening to pull your bus pass and TV license away if you don't vote how he wants you to vote.

 

[northsomersetred]

2 hours ago, RedDave said:

Keep trolling, trolling, trolling.

She had a very high rank position at Oxfam.  Apparently that's not a job though right....

I expect the Tories cuts to mental health might well be a big factor in this. Won't stop them winning the next election sadly in these 'I'm alright jack' times.

No troll here mate. Here's the real news from yesterday.

A muslim gang of 25 men jailed for up to 25yrs for raping young girls, not one mention in the national news yesterday. I wonder why?

Real news from yesterday

 

[BS2 Red]

 

[And Its Smith]

22 minutes ago, northsomersetred said:

No troll here mate. Here's the real news from yesterday.

A muslim gang of 25 men jailed for up to 25yrs for raping young girls, not one mention in the national news yesterday. I wonder why?

Real news from yesterday

 

No mention on the news but the link is from BBC News!!  

Thats a new level of agenda writing

[screech]

24 minutes ago, northsomersetred said:

No troll here mate. Here's the real news from yesterday.

A muslim gang of 25 men jailed for up to 25yrs for raping young girls, not one mention in the national news yesterday. I wonder why?

Real news from yesterday

 

On most days that would have been a big story, you must realise though that a cold blooded murder of a member of parliament is a massive story both here and abroad.

[marshy]

It's being reported in the Telegraph that Mair sought help for his mental condition the day before the attack but was told to come back the next day.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

18 minutes ago, marshy said:

It's being reported in the Telegraph that Mair sought help for his mental condition the day before the attack but was told to come back the next day.

indeed when you add everything up he hardly seems to fit the profile that you would expect of a 'political' terrorist that some on here are trying hard to claim, he sounds as though he is a very sick man.

[BS2 Red]

He might be mentally ill, but there's little doubt of the politics behind his motive. 

"Thomas Mair told Westminster Magistrates' Court, "Death to traitors, freedom for Britain", when asked to confirm his name."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36567005

[And Its Smith]

He is a terrorist but that doesn't fit the agenda.  Only Muslims can be terrorists it seems.  Nobody dismissed Lee Rigby's killers as sick men.  They were terrorists.  

[LondonBristolian]

14 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

indeed when you add everything up he hardly seems to fit the profile that you would expect of a 'political' terrorist that some on here are trying hard to claim, he sounds as though he is a very sick man.

From the sounds of things he fits it exactly. I think part of the issue is a misconception about terrorists. Poor social integration and poor emotional health are not uncommon amongst people who carry out terrorist attacks. The media tend to portray them as cool and calculated but you do any further reading and you find anything but.

Frankly the evidence at the moment stacks up as follows:

1. Witnesses saying he shouted "British first"

2. Him apparently being pictured at a Britain First March.

3. His collection of neo-nazi memorabilia he had in his home

4. Him being a member of a Soutj Africa Far-right organisation. 

5. Him buying neo-nazi literature from a far-right American website

6. What he said in court today

https://mobile.twitter.com/PA/status/744098240115671040

7. The police saying they are pursuing his far-right links as a priority line of enquiry

None of this is to say his mental health wasn't a factor too. It almost certainly was BUT there is no reason this needs to be an either/or situation. It's very possible that the attack happening when it did was triggered by a mental health crisis but the underlying motive was his political views. As I've said before, mental health in itself is very rarely a motive in and of itself. It might inhibit the self-control that prevents people acting on violent impulses but is unlikely to have created those violent impulses in the first place.

And I think the weight of evidence has now reached a point where it would take mental gymnastics worthy of an Olympic gold medallist to disagree that, on the face of it, Mair's political views were a factor in this attack.

[BS2 Red]

4 minutes ago, RedDave said:

He is a terrorist but that doesn't fit the agenda.  Only Muslims can be terrorists it seems.  Nobody dismissed Lee Rigby's killers as sick men.  They were terrorists.  

Pretty much. I think only one of Lee Rigby's murderers was pronounced mentally ill but you never hear that mentioned. Whereas as soon as this story broke certain people seem to be falling over themselves to pronounce this killer mentally ill.

I fully accept that this arsehole was almost certainly mentally ill, but it doesn't change the fact that he was motivated by extreme right wing propaganda.

[LondonBristolian]

5 minutes ago, RedDave said:

He is a terrorist but that doesn't fit the agenda.  Only Muslims can be terrorists it seems.  Nobody dismissed Lee Rigby's killers as sick men.  They were terrorists.  

Exactly. And frankly I'd say Lee Rigby's killers clearly WERE very, very sick men. However that does not excuse them from culpability for their actions or diminish the obvious political motive for what they did. And neither should it for Mair, based on what we know so far.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

14 minutes ago, RedDave said:

He is a terrorist but that doesn't fit the agenda.  Only Muslims can be terrorists it seems.  Nobody dismissed Lee Rigby's killers as sick men.  They were terrorists.  

No agenda from me, the Lee Rigby trial indeed did prove what sick men they were and still the authorities instead just locking these clearly mentally ill men up they allowed the trial to be turned into a sickening show trial and the same thing will happen with this case, it will turn into a circus and in fact that circus has already started this morning.

 

[Fiale]

As soon as he walked in to see a counsellor the day before who thought he had ‘some sort of crisis’ and there appeared to be a ‘real problem  . Something should have been done, he should not have just been told, see you next week. People with Metal Health issues can be very insular, but in times of stress they do reach out and when they do, it needs to be recognised and acted on. If someone went in to see their GP and was in some sort of health crisis and appeared to be a real problem, nurse would come in, a ambulance called, they would be checked over in a hospital - the country continues to fail people in regards to this. Maybe if we were more serious about it we could also tackle the horrendous suicide rates. 

[TRL]

45 minutes ago, Fiale said:

As soon as he walked in to see a counsellor the day before who thought he had ‘some sort of crisis’ and there appeared to be a ‘real problem  . Something should have been done, he should not have just been told, see you next week. People with Metal Health issues can be very insular, but in times of stress they do reach out and when they do, it needs to be recognised and acted on. If someone went in to see their GP and was in some sort of health crisis and appeared to be a real problem, nurse would come in, a ambulance called, they would be checked over in a hospital - the country continues to fail people in regards to this. Maybe if we were more serious about it we could also tackle the horrendous suicide rates. 

Sums up the mental health service from all experiences I have had with them. Very much you're on your own and so are your family until something bad happens.  

 

I reckon their bins must be full to over flowing with lessons learned documents.

 

Hey Ho

[And Its Smith]

[Guest]

50 minutes ago, TRL said:

Sums up the mental health service from all experiences I have had with them. Very much you're on your own and so are your family until something bad happens.  

 

I reckon their bins must be full to over flowing with lessons learned documents.

 

Hey Ho

Another one of Thatchers masterclasses, although you could go back as far as Enoch Powell's water tower speach in 1961 which saw the run down of the asylums and finished off by Maggie with the 1982 act that put the sole emphasis on care in the community. For sure the victorian asylums were a thing of the past but they probably should have kept one in each county/region to help those who need help. All we have now is secure hospitals - mainly full of people who have committed a crime under disminished responsibility.

[Red-Robbo]

5 hours ago, screech said:

Just read that piece and I think It's a one eyed view of this Robbo, the rhetoric from both sides has been nasty. Little Englanders, closet racists, bigots, pulling up the drawbridge etc etc. Imagine being an old age pensioner and you see the chancellor threatening to pull your bus pass and TV license away if you don't vote how he wants you to vote.

 

I didn’t read the message that way, Screech. I saw it as calling for a calmer, kinder, more polite political discourse. Not just from politicians.

[LondonBristolian]

2 hours ago, Fiale said:

As soon as he walked in to see a counsellor the day before who thought he had ‘some sort of crisis’ and there appeared to be a ‘real problem  . Something should have been done, he should not have just been told, see you next week. People with Metal Health issues can be very insular, but in times of stress they do reach out and when they do, it needs to be recognised and acted on. If someone went in to see their GP and was in some sort of health crisis and appeared to be a real problem, nurse would come in, a ambulance called, they would be checked over in a hospital - the country continues to fail people in regards to this. Maybe if we were more serious about it we could also tackle the horrendous suicide rates. 

I'd certainly not disagree with anything you have written here. However none it changed the fact the evolve suggests there was very much a political motive to this attack, even if it were also perhaps true that that an appropriate mental health intervention could perhaps have prevented it.

[LondonBristolian]

1 hour ago, RedDave said:

Nail on head.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

11 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

I didn’t read the message that way, Screech. I saw it as calling for a calmer, kinder, more polite political discourse. Not just from politicians.

There's a thought, that piece and the Guardian Polly Toynbee piece have hit the nail on the head for me, you can see why people other than dyed in the wool voters and people on the extremes of the tories and labour vote, don't bother anymore.

it would be fitting if this tragedy was perhaps the line in the sand that UK politics need and has seen our politicians descend from the gutter into the sewers where the truth has been totally lost and abused by both sides, in fact it might be a good idea to suspend the referendum for a year and start again.

I think everybody in the EU knows that changes have to be made regardless of Thursdays vote and it would give the EU time to properly reflect on those changes that do need to be made and bring them into being before a new referendum and if there is the will for referendums in France or Germany or other EU countries they can coincide, over 60% want that referendum in France for instance.

[BS2 Red]

From September 2015:

In a post on their Facebook page, deputy leader, Jayda Fransen, admonishes their “pro-EU, Islamist-loving opponents” for “ruining our country”.

She adds: “They think they can get away with ruining our country, turning us into a Third World country, giving away our homes, jobs and heritage, but they will face the wrath of the Britain First movement, make no mistake about it!

“We will not rest until every traitor is punished for their crimes against our country.

“And by punished, I mean good old fashioned British justice at the end of a rope!”

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/8203000.html?edition=uk

[BS2 Red]

21 minutes ago, Big Brother said:

I've read your posts.  What is your point of view about things in general?  Do you have a political position you'd care to share here?  I've always been 100% open and honest about mine.  How about you doing the same.

I don't have a political position as such, I tend to judge issues on an issue by issue basis.

I am not a fan of any extreme position though. Far right or far left, extreme nationalist or extreme Islamist. They are mostly different sides of the same coin and all end up causing hatred and violence.

On this issue, I am genuinely bemused by the attempts by the right wing to have this classified as just a guy with mental illness. He probably is mentally ill, but that doesn't stop this being an act of political terrorism.

[Bat Fastard]

5 minutes ago, BS2 Red said:

I don't have a political position as such, I tend to judge issues on an issue by issue basis.

I am not a fan of any extreme position though. Far right or far left, extreme nationalist or extreme Islamist. They are mostly different sides of the same coin and all end up causing hatred and violence.

On this issue, I am genuinely bemused by the attempts by the right wing to have this classified as just a guy with mental illness. He probably is mentally ill, but that doesn't stop this being an act of political terrorism.

I think that he was mentally ill by virtue of the fact that he had been involved with the mental health services for many years.  Killing someone in this terrible manner is more of a sign of extreme mental illness - it is a long way from being normal.  As for the political links that you mentioned in a previous post, these have nothing to do with mainstream opinion in this country and Brexit supporters are as likely to be from the left of politics as well as from the centre or right.  It is clear that the Remain campaign are trying to make political capital out of this tragic outrage and that just shows their complete lack of moral purpose.  Are they really saying that the likes of Frank Field are extreme right wing hate merchants?  There are some very ugly people in our country and sadly they are all entitled to their opinions - and that is fine until they start to kill people.  There was not much of the political makeup of Jo Cox that I agreed with - but this whole affair is awful beyond words and I hope that she rests in peace and my deepest sympathies are with her family and loved ones.  The murderer is clearly a sick man and will spend the rest of his miserable life in a place where he can hopefully get the treatment he needs and not be able to harm another human being ever again.

[cityexile]

1 hour ago, Big Brother said:

Really? You'd stoop so low as to post that image to make your point.  You're making this an issue of race.  It's foolish and you should be ashamed of yourself.

I think the cartoon makes a fair point.

Article that sums up my view best

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/orlando-jo-cox-and-the-deadly-ideas-that-shape-our-world/2016/06/17/574b9122-3488-11e6-8ff7-7b6c1998b7a0_story.html?hpid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-f%3Ahomepage%2Fstory

[Super]

Reading this Some of you should be embarrassed, obviously forgetting a 3 and 5 year old have lost a mum. Shameful.

[And Its Smith]

3 minutes ago, Super said:

Reading this Some of you should be embarrassed, obviously forgetting a 3 and 5 year old have lost a mum. Shameful.

What on earth on you on about? Are the children or husband going to read this ? No.  Get over yourself.  This is a forum where things are debated and views shared.  

[And Its Smith]

1 hour ago, Big Brother said:

Really? You'd stoop so low as to post that image to make your point.  You're making this an issue of race.  It's foolish and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Either you've purposely missed the point or you aren't bright enough to understand it.  I think we both know it's the former.

If the murderer had been Asian then he would be called a terrorist by one and all.  

[screech]

22 minutes ago, RedDave said:

What on earth on you on about? Are the children or husband going to read this ? No.  Get over yourself.  This is a forum where things are debated and views shared.  

Agree with that, there are lots of different points of view on this, for me this is a terrorist act, but I can understand why some might see it differently. This is a massive news story, there is speculation everywhere, it's healthy to have an outlet where differing views are expressed.