Tragic

[The Gasbuster]

52 minutes ago, RedDave said:

Either you've purposely missed the point or you aren't bright enough to understand it.  I think we both know it's the former.

If the murderer had been Asian then he would be called a terrorist by one and all.  

Can't argue with that !

[Fiale]

1 hour ago, Super said:

Reading this Some of you should be embarrassed, obviously forgetting a 3 and 5 year old have lost a mum. Shameful.

 

Probably the best thing that can come out of her death, that would be a lasting legacy for Joe is for the Government to step up and deal with the deep divisions in the country, tackle mental health, stop people falling down the cracks. Discussions like this thread are important, your thoughts, prayers, wishes... sorry they are worthless and will change nothing - but recognising the problems and campaigning for change... that means something.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

3 hours ago, BS2 Red said:

I don't have a political position as such, I tend to judge issues on an issue by issue basis.

I am not a fan of any extreme position though. Far right or far left, extreme nationalist or extreme Islamist. They are mostly different sides of the same coin and all end up causing hatred and violence.

On this issue, I am genuinely bemused by the attempts by the right wing to have this classified as just a guy with mental illness. He probably is mentally ill, but that doesn't stop this being an act of political terrorism.

I am going to share something with you here, earlier in this thread LondonBristolian told us about his 10 year involvement in mental health and I bowed to his expertise in that particular sphere, well part of my expertise was on the other side of this argument 15 years out of my 30 year working life, I will say no more than that but here's my input from my specialist viewpoint.

The similarity between this weeks tragic events and the events surrounding Lee Rigby's murder will end up chillingly similar, Lee Rigby's killers were known not only to the police, but also special branch and the secret services, one was also known for his mental illness and pretty much left to his own devices to ensure that he took his medication, Mair will have been known to the same agencies and we are being told similarly being left to his own devices to deal with his mental health issues.

Here's what would have happened, Lee Rigby's killers and Mair would have definitely come to the attention of Special Branch initially, they would have done the background work and sent a file to the security services, who would have sent it back to the special branch almost certainly saying "of interest, but not a threat" and special branch would have sat on it, the only information the police on the ground would be privy to is from when they came to police attention for minor incidents.

So basically the special branch and security services and the mental health teams would have said basically the same thing "wait until he does something" and then we can act and sadly in both cases that happened.

The fallout from this on top of the Lee Rigby incident will be a Whitehall call for more resources because as we now know they cannot watch everybody and people like Lee Rigby's murderers and Mair end up on the bottom of the pile, whilst they wait for them to do something or come to their notice in surveillance on related matters, which might elevate them from the bottom of the pile, they may even call for more wide ranging powers and that's where labour in particular might encounter a problem.

The advice given to off duty soldiers about staying safe is one thing but how do you protect over 600 MP's many of whom are household names/faces and all well known within their constituencies.

Will this happen again?, yes of course it will Jill Dando, the vicar at Thornbury, John Lennon all killed obsessive mentally ill people, 4 years ago it was claimed that 3 people per fortnight are killed by mentally ill people in the UK.

and although probably not knowing about the literature Lee Rigby's killers and Mair were in possession of, the websites would certainly have been monitored, but still not flagged up as game changing.

So the bottom line is if we need to label any of these murderers remember in the eyes of special branch and the security services, all of them only became political terrorists the minute that they killed somebody, otherwise they would have been in custody, charged with conspiracy or caught in the act because of surveillance, the pile of known terrorists will be significantly smaller than the 'of interest, but not a threat, wait until they do something' variety and that is a chilling fact.

 

[Kid in the Riot]

5 hours ago, Big Brother said:

Really? You'd stoop so low as to post that image to make your point.  You're making this an issue of race.  It's foolish and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Assuming you're not on the wind-up; it's called satire. 

You accusing someone else of making anything 'an issue of race' on the other hand, is just pure comedy.

[BS2 Red]

2 hours ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

I am going to share something with you here, earlier in this thread LondonBristolian told us about his 10 year involvement in mental health and I bowed to his expertise in that particular sphere, well part of my expertise was on the other side of this argument 15 years out of my 30 year working life, I will say no more than that but here's my input from my specialist viewpoint.

The similarity between this weeks tragic events and the events surrounding Lee Rigby's murder will end up chillingly similar, Lee Rigby's killers were known not only to the police, but also special branch and the secret services, one was also known for his mental illness and pretty much left to his own devices to ensure that he took his medication, Mair will have been known to the same agencies and we are being told similarly being left to his own devices to deal with his mental health issues.

Here's what would have happened, Lee Rigby's killers and Mair would have definitely come to the attention of Special Branch initially, they would have done the background work and sent a file to the security services, who would have sent it back to the special branch almost certainly saying "of interest, but not a threat" and special branch would have sat on it, the only information the police on the ground would be privy to is from when they came to police attention for minor incidents.

So basically the special branch and security services and the mental health teams would have said basically the same thing "wait until he does something" and then we can act and sadly in both cases that happened.

The fallout from this on top of the Lee Rigby incident will be a Whitehall call for more resources because as we now know they cannot watch everybody and people like Lee Rigby's murderers and Mair end up on the bottom of the pile, whilst they wait for them to do something or come to their notice in surveillance on related matters, which might elevate them from the bottom of the pile, they may even call for more wide ranging powers and that's where labour in particular might encounter a problem.

The advice given to off duty soldiers about staying safe is one thing but how do you protect over 600 MP's many of whom are household names/faces and all well known within their constituencies.

Will this happen again?, yes of course it will Jill Dando, the vicar at Thornbury, John Lennon all killed obsessive mentally ill people, 4 years ago it was claimed that 3 people per fortnight are killed by mentally ill people in the UK.

and although probably not knowing about the literature Lee Rigby's killers and Mair were in possession of, the websites would certainly have been monitored, but still not flagged up as game changing.

So the bottom line is if we need to label any of these murderers remember in the eyes of special branch and the security services, all of them only became political terrorists the minute that they killed somebody, otherwise they would have been in custody, charged with conspiracy or caught in the act because of surveillance, the pile of known terrorists will be significantly smaller than the 'of interest, but not a threat, wait until they do something' variety and that is a chilling fact.

 

Good post and I agree, it's next to impossible to protect 600 odd MPs unless they have next to zero access to the public.

Maybe this event in a very strange way though shows us how safe our country is, the last MP killed was back in the early 90s. This murder has been so shocking because she was a young mother but also because it's such a rare event.

Hopefully it remains extremely rare and this doesn't spark copycats.

[Moloch]

4 minutes ago, Big Brother said:

See above post.

There is an obvious reason why, had he been Asian, people would have jumped to the conclusion that he was a terrorist - people of 'Asian' descent are involved in 99% of the murder, rape and general mayhem that is currently happening in Europe and elsewhere.  What on earth do you expect?

Care to show how you got to 99%?

Is it hyperbole for effect?

[BS2 Red]

10 minutes ago, Big Brother said:

See above post.

There is an obvious reason why, had he been Asian, people would have jumped to the conclusion that he was a terrorist - people of 'Asian' descent are involved in 99% of the murder, rape and general mayhem that is currently happening in Europe and elsewhere.  What on earth do you expect?

99%?

Are you still claiming that you're not a racist? 

[RedRock]

Was it not the Conservative party who went into one recent election saying they wanted to reduce the amount of CCTV? Labour and other leftie organisations constantly oppose any proposed legislation to increase computer/telephone monitoring.

While you have naive mugs like these parties/pressure groups ruling us, no great wonder that terrorists have the upper hand. 

 

[BS2 Red]

25 minutes ago, Big Brother said:

Yes 99% is obviously not an exact figure. However if you think Europeans have committed as many terrorist attacks in Europe as 'Asians' (specifically Muslims) then, well, I wish you well.

You think there have been more Muslim terrorist attacks in Europe than the combined total of the IRA and ETA?

And that's just two of the "European" groups.

[BS2 Red]

26 minutes ago, Big Brother said:

Your problem is that you don't know what 'racist' means.

It's probably somebody that makes up crime figures to try and score points against one ethnic group.

[Moloch]

33 minutes ago, Big Brother said:

Yes 99% is obviously not an exact figure. However if you think Europeans have committed as many terrorist attacks in Europe as 'Asians' (specifically Muslims) then, well, I wish you well.

You didn't say terrorist attacks.

Your line was murder, rape and general mayhem.

And I'm sure you are aware that Asian and Muslim are not interchangeable.

[Moloch]

36 minutes ago, Big Brother said:

Your problem is that you don't know what 'racist' means.

 

Quote

 

Racist or religious crime

This is an offence where the prosecutor has to prove a racial or religious element as part of the offence itself, or where the law allows the prosecutor to put that evidence to the court when an offender is being sentenced.

There is no single criminal offence of racist crime or religious crime. There are a number of different offences where we have to prove a racial or religious element before the accused person can be found guilty. An example of this is racist chanting at a football match.

Apart from the offences where we have to be able to prove a racial or religious element, the criminal courts have a duty to treat any offence as being more serious where there is evidence that the accused person demonstrated hostility, or was motivated by hostility towards the victim because of the victim's membership of a racial or religious group.

Racial group – this means any group of people who are defined by reference to their race, colour, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origin. This could include Gypsies and Travellers, refugees, or asylum seekers or others from less visible minorities. There has been a legal ruling that Jews and Sikhs are included in the definition of racial group.

Religious group - this means any group of people defined by reference to their religious belief or lack of religious belief. For example, this includes Muslims, Hindus and Christians, and different denominations and branches within those religions. It would also include people with no religious belief at all.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/prosecution/rrpbcrbook.html#a03

 

 

A hate crime is still a hate crime. Saying it isn't racist because "a religion isn't a race" is surely nothing but sophistry.

[BS2 Red]

14 minutes ago, Moloch said:

 

 

A hate crime is still a hate crime. Saying it isn't racist because "a religion isn't a race" is surely nothing but sophistry.

And as he said Asian he doesn't even have that get out clause.

[cityexile]

1 hour ago, Big Brother said:

Of course I understand the message, but this image totally misses a deeper point and therefore attempts to keep the debate at the level of skin colour, which is exactly where socialists want it.

My opinions about culture etc are not part of this thread, but as I've said on a number of occasions, if any of you want to start a thread on race, bring it on.

Missing the satire entirely here I fear. It is not socialists trying to make it an issue of skin colour here, rather complaining that the 'nationalist' side constantly do.

Anyhow, on a more positive note. I see a conservative MP has asked the Speaker of the House of Commons whether back benchers on Monday can break with tradition, and basically inter mingle rather than have to sit on their side of the commons, when they discuss the tragic events leading to an MP losing their life.

Symbolism of course, but in this case good symbolism. Politics is I fear becoming much more filled with hate, and any message that we disagree of course on policies, sometimes strongly, but that ultimately we come togther as democrats, seems an idea worth supporting.

[PHILINFRANCE]

2 hours ago, Big Brother said:

Yes 99% is obviously not an exact figure. However if you think Europeans have committed as many terrorist attacks in Europe as 'Asians' (specifically Muslims) then, well, I wish you well.

....but I thought I would quote it as fact, anyway, to try and strengthen my argument, just hoping nobody would notice. 

[northsomersetred]

20 hours ago, screech said:

On most days that would have been a big story, you must realise though that a cold blooded murder of a member of parliament is a massive story both here and abroad.

People killed in cold blood every week in this country, I haven't seen one with this much hysteria since the death of the Queen Mother.

it wouldn't surprise me if this was a false flag attack, with her death being politicised the way it has. With the remain going behind in the polls those behind that want us to stay within the EU are getting absolutely desperate.

[northsomersetred]

21 hours ago, RedDave said:

No mention on the news but the link is from BBC News!!  

Thats a new level of agenda writing

Absolutely no mention of it on any national BBC or Sky broadcast that I saw, unless you can enlighten me?

[LondonBristolian]

8 hours ago, Big Brother said:

Yes 99% is obviously not an exact figure. However if you think Europeans have committed as many terrorist attacks in Europe as 'Asians' (specifically Muslims) then, well, I wish you well.

99% is indeed not an exact figure. Assuming "general mayhem" refers to any instance of criminal behaviour, I believe you'll find the most recent "exact figure" is that 4.5% of people in the criminal justice system are Asian. So, not only is not an exact figure, it's simply completely wrong.

[LondonBristolian]

8 hours ago, Big Brother said:

Your problem is that you don't know what 'racist' means.

I think you'll find it definitely means people who conflate 'Asians' and 'Muslims' and that it also means people who invent fake crime stats that inaccurately suggest 99 out of 100 offences of "murder, rape and general mayhem" are committed by Asian people.

If you don't want to be labelled as a racist, perhaps a good strategy would be to stop posting racist things?

[LondonBristolian]

36 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

99% is indeed not an exact figure. Assuming "general mayhem" refers to any instance of criminal behaviour, I believe you'll find the most recent "exact figure" is that 4.5% of people in the criminal justice system are Asian. So, not only is not an exact figure, it's simply completely wrong.

I should have added that, if you take terrorism alone, Islamists have killed around 470 people in Europe. Anders Breivik killed more than a third of the total people killed by Islamic terrorism in one single incident. ETA and the troubles on Ireland were responsible for 3000 deaths. Anyone who looks at any list of terrorist incidents in Europe will find way more have been committed by European individuals and terrorist groups than Islamists.

[BS2 Red]

1 hour ago, northsomersetred said:

 

it wouldn't surprise me if this was a false flag attack, with her death being politicised the way it has. With the remain going behind in the polls those behind that want us to stay within the EU are getting absolutely desperate.

I can see it now....

10 Downing Street:

David Cameron: George old chap, the polls are showing we will keep the Poles, what can we do?

George Osborne: Don't worry Dave, meet my bestest ever assassin, Thomas has been pretending to garden for years but we ensured he also has easy to find links with extreme nationalist groups.

David Cameron: So Thomas, you understand the mission?

Thomas Mair: Yes sir, I carry out the attack and shout "Britain!"

David Cameron: No! You shout "Britain First" you know the same name as the Facebook group!

Thomas Mair: Right you are sir, I'll shout "keep Britain first"

David Cameron: FFS, are you sure about this guy George?

George Osborne: He's our only hope Dave, we are desperate now.

[WTFiGO!?!]

6 minutes ago, BS2 Red said:

I can see it now....

10 Downing Street:

David Cameron: George old chap, the polls are showing we will keep the Poles, what can we do?

George Osborne: Don't worry Dave, meet my bestest ever assassin, Thomas has been pretending to garden for years but we ensured he also has easy to find links with extreme nationalist groups.

David Cameron: So Thomas, you understand the mission?

Thomas Mair: Yes sir, I carry out the attack and shout "Britain!"

David Cameron: No! You shout "Britain First" you know the same name as the Facebook group!

Thomas Mair: Right you are sir, I'll shout "keep Britain first"

David Cameron: FFS, are you sure about this guy George?

George Osborne: He's our only hope Dave, we are desperate now.

It sounds quite desperate to propose it as a possibility, doesn't it?  Paranoid even.

Added to this that the polls are less reliable than the weather and they were swinging back to remain anyway, the last I heard.

[And Its Smith]

3 hours ago, northsomersetred said:

People killed in cold blood every week in this country, I haven't seen one with this much hysteria since the death of the Queen Mother.

it wouldn't surprise me if this was a false flag attack, with her death being politicised the way it has. With the remain going behind in the polls those behind that want us to stay within the EU are getting absolutely desperate.

Okay.  I didn't know you had insane views like that.  I make it a personal mission not to engage with people like you as I would waste a lot of time.  Expect Sandy Hook, 9/11 and most other U.S tragedies are false flags and the moon is a hologram.  All widely held conspiracy theories.

[Red-Robbo]

4 hours ago, northsomersetred said:

People killed in cold blood every week in this country, I haven't seen one with this much hysteria since the death of the Queen Mother.

it wouldn't surprise me if this was a false flag attack, with her death being politicised the way it has. With the remain going behind in the polls those behind that want us to stay within the EU are getting absolutely desperate.

Crickey.  I hope you haven't a gun license. That last paragraph is as crazy as Tommy Mair.

On the point made by @RedDave

I know what you're getting at, but I'd class Mair as a lone assassin.  Terrorists tend to belong to groups - even informally - that advocate lethal force violence against multiple targets. The aim is to use "terror" to influence government policy.

[Lanterne Rouge]

21 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Crickey.  I hope you haven't a gun license. That last paragraph is as crazy as Tommy Mair.

On the point made by @RedDave

I know what you're getting at, but I'd class Mair as a lone assassin.  Terrorists tend to belong to groups - even informally - that advocate lethal force violence against multiple targets. The aim is to use "terror" to influence government policy.

That`s pretty much my view on it. I would class him along with those American nutjobs who take it upon themselves to firebomb abortion clinics and things like that. They are influenced by the literature etc. that is out there but just use it to reinforce and justify their own crazy view of the world.

[And Its Smith]

My point is that a lone Asian man is quickly called a terrorist.  A lone white man is called a loner.  Language is extremely important.  Consistency needed.

[BS2 Red]

The Orlando shooter wasn't part of a group as such, he pledged allegiance to ISIS but wasn't part of them.

Mair was part of or wanted to be part of Britain First and carried out a political assassination in their name or at least by quoting their aims and ideas.

The only real difference is that ISIS are happy to accept their killer, whereas BF don't want people to think of this guy as one of theirs.

If the definition of terrorism is violence and/or killing in the name of a group/political ideology/religion then Mair is a terrorist.

[BCFC Jimmer]

On 6/18/2016 at 07:25, northsomersetred said:

Couldn't care less about her.

She is the optimum of what is wrong with today's politics and politicians, went to Oxbridge (and for once an MP without a PPE but did a politics degree nonetheless) never done a days work in her life and claims to 'represent the people'.

I expect the real reason will come to light over the next few months why this guy killed her and i'd put serious money that he has mental health issues and has been let down by the NHS due to lack of funding.

The w**kfest the press have got themselves into over this is scary. 

 

 

One of the most divisive and disgusting posts I have ever read on Otib.  Whatever you think of her, she was democratically elected into government - if her constituents all shared the same opinion of her they could vote her out.  All reports said she was hard working and did a lot for charity.  Her principles were not questionable because she believed in increasing equality.  She was ultimately sticking up for the working class a lot more than most politicans!

Sorry, but if you are being serious you are an utter moron. Awful and stupid comments.