Tragic

[LondonBristolian]

2 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Ah right so that opens it up for a free for all?.

Of course it doesn't.  I've amended my original comment but I don't think MPs can be blamed for perceiving something such as this as a political matter.  A democratically elected politician being murdered by someone with a grudge against them for whatever reason is inherently political.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

17 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Of course it doesn't.  I've amended my original comment but I don't think MPs can be blamed for perceiving something such as this as a political matter.  A democratically elected politician being murdered by someone with a grudge against them for whatever reason is inherently political.

So you can pre judge that on the scant evidence that you read or heard from the media? and discounted for instance that it might have something to do with with a historical failed meeting between the 2 of them at her surgery?.

[LondonBristolian]

3 hours ago, Tomarse said:

Which is wonderfully ironic given the likes of BF are first to lay the boot in on any attack that's related to Islam or Isis without any facts.  I hope it does prove to be an isolated incident completely unrelated to any organisation otherwise the media/press need a big wake up call and need to stop peddling hate and divide in this country. 

Indeed.  On the one hand, I applaud the desire not to rush to judgement.  On the other hand, had it been a brown-skinned killer and they'd been reported to have shouted "Allah Akbar" rather than "Britain First", I'm skeptical as to whether people would be so keen to reserve judgement until they have all the facts.

In reality, whilst random and motiveless attacks by people with mental health impairments do happen, they are extremely rare and, even then, only with people with certain mental health impairments (which we've currently no way of knowing if Thomas Mair had or not). The idea that a history of mental health impairments mean someone's mental health, in isolation, is the sole explanation for a murder is fairly unconvincing.  Mental health might might make someone more likely to act on a particularly motive but it is rarely a motive in and of itself.

There seems to be witness evidence from the scene that he shouted "Britain First" and evidence in the newspapers that he subscribed to far-right publications.  It's obviously important to reserve judgment until the facts come in but, at the same time, downplaying specific information (e.g. what he shouted and the subscription to far-right literature) and placing more significance on other information (e.g. his mental health) isn't actually reserving judgement.  It's making a choice as to which judgement you'd prefer and judging things on that basis.

To be absolutely crystal clear, I do not see any reason to believe this was anything other than a lone wolf attack and, repulsive an organisation though Britain First are, it seems unlikely in the extreme that they had any knowledge or involvement in this attack or any desire to see such an attack happen but I would say that, having far-right forums in this past for work related reasons, and having spent a fair amount of time working with vulnerable adults, that I do find it highly plausible that the language, bravado and intensity of those forums could influence vulnerable adults into carrying out the kind of actions that most of the members brag and mouth off about but would not actually do.

We don't know what happens.  But I do think the line between 'lone wolf' killers, people who participate in mass shootings and people who take part in terrorist attacks is far, far thinner than we tend to pretend and that there is some truth in the idea that as a society our first instinct is to blame mental health if the killer is white and religion or politics if the killer is non-white because it fits pre-conceived narratives whereas the truth is far more complex.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

17 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Of course it doesn't.  I've amended my original comment but I don't think MPs can be blamed for perceiving something such as this as a political matter.  A democratically elected politician being murdered by someone with a grudge against them for whatever reason is inherently political.

Was this political? an incident I remember very well.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-175258/MPs-relief-Samurai-attack-conviction.html

 

[LondonBristolian]

15 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

So you can pre judge that on the scant evidence that you read or heard from the media? and discounted for instance that it might have something to do with with a historical failed meeting between the 2 of them at her surgery?.

I've not discounted that but I might wait until there's evidence there was a historical failed meeting before seeing that as a potential motive. 

I think the other point I'd make is that I am not actually the judge, jury or investigator here.  You and I are allowed to draw initial conclusions on what appears to have happened on the face of it without using the sort of evidence you would need to convict in a court of law.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

3 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I've not discounted that but I might wait until there's evidence there was a historical failed meeting before seeing that as a potential motive. 

I think the other point I'd make is that I am not actually the judge, jury or investigator here.  You and I are allowed to draw initial conclusions on what appears to have happened on the face of it without using the sort of evidence you would need to convict in a court of law.

I haven't drawn any conclusions about his motives for this murder other than there are obvious contradictions in this man life, it seems that this man who seems although to have been very much a loner appeared popular amongst his neighbours whom he helped and doing volunteer work and they appear genuinely shocked, apparently mentally ill and obviously hiding some dark secret, I haven't seen anything that actually overtly (where his neighbours for instance were fully aware) of any links to the groups described.

My main conclusion would be mentally ill not politically motivated far right activist.

 

[LondonBristolian]

10 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Was this political? an incident I remember very well.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-175258/MPs-relief-Samurai-attack-conviction.html

 

It was an attack on an elected member of parliament by someone who did not like the political process. So of course it was. It was, of course, also based on a grudge with that political politician and also perhaps a mental health element too but my point is it is a bit simplistic to delineate all those things. People do things for complex combinations of reasons and it's a bit misguided to say "if he had a mental health impairment, it can't have been these other facts too." Mental health might exacerbate other motives but it very rarely a sole explanation and motive in and of itself.

[LondonBristolian]

3 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

I haven't drawn any conclusions about his motives for this murder other than there are obvious contradictions in this man life, it seems that this man who seems although to have been very much a loner appeared popular amongst his neighbours whom he helped and doing volunteer work and they appear genuinely shocked, apparently mentally ill and obviously hiding some dark secret, I haven't seen anything that actually overtly (where his neighbours for instance were fully aware) of any links to the groups described.

My main conclusion would be mentally ill not politically motivated far right activist.

 

Why should it be either/or?

[richwwtk]

No matter what the persons skin colour, nationality, religion or beliefs the very fact that they have gone so far as to kill somebody makes the politics absolutely irrelevant. They may as well have done it because they don't like brown shoes. This goes for all acts of terrorism. The politics of the perpetrators should be ignored completely, they don't deserve the publicity.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

8 minutes ago, richwwtk said:

No matter what the persons skin colour, nationality, religion or beliefs the very fact that they have gone so far as to kill somebody makes the politics absolutely irrelevant. They may as well have done it because they don't like brown shoes. This goes for all acts of terrorism. The politics of the perpetrators should be ignored completely, they don't deserve the publicity.

Spot on brother and the irony here is if the murder was politically motivated why are that group not claiming responsibility?, this has been politicised unnecessarily and is almost certainly more likely to be a mentally ill individual carrying out a horrific act because of that mental disorder and that is more likely societies problem not any group.

[PHILINFRANCE]

Even though they seem to disagree with each other, I tend to agree with both ES and LondonB.

Firstly, I think we all acknowledge that we should not rush to judgement: none of us were present, and any opinion we offer must, by extension, be based on media reports coupled with eye-witness accounts, although I believe it has been quite well documented that the alleged perpetrator suffered from 'mental issues'.

I would not be surprised if it transpires that he had an original, perhaps petty, grievance with the late Jo Cox, no doubt over some matter we might consider trivial but which was obviously important to him, and that he became frustrated his MP was not doing enough to help him, a frustration perhaps exacerbated by what he perceived as her excessive involvement in the Syrian migrant/refugee problem.

Perhaps his frustration just boiled over and, in desperation and in a rage, he sought his terrible vengeance, shouting (if indeed he did so) 'Britain First' or 'Put Britain First'.

 

[LondonBristolian]

31 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Spot on brother and the irony here is if the murder was politically motivated why are that group not claiming responsibility?, this has been politicised unnecessarily and is almost certainly more likely to be a mentally ill individual carrying out a horrific act because of that mental disorder and that is more likely societies problem not any group.

I don't think anyone's claiming any kind of group was involved.  I'm not entirely sure who you think would/might be claiming responsibility?  All the evidence suggested he acted alone.  That doesn't necessarily mean there was no political element though.  There's no evidence the San Bernardino killers, Omar Mateen or the guy who stabbed someone at Leytonstone tube whilst shouting "Allah Akbar" were acting on the orders or plans of any particular group but I think most would accept there was a political aspect to what they did regardless.

Once again I'm going to emphaise I've over a decade's experience of working with people with mental health impairments and the idea that "mental disorder" is a motive or a reason someone commits a crime in and of itself doesn't really hold water.  It might make people more likely to act on particular motives or grudges but people don't really kill because they have a mental health impairment.  There'd usually be some other motive and "mental health" itself might make him more likely to act but it isn't a reason.

Meanwhile more evidence seems to be emerging that he had an interest in far-right literature...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/17/jo-cox-suspect-thomas-mair-bought-gun-manuals-from-us-neo-nazis-group-claims

[LondonBristolian]

Whatever else I think about the Conservative Party, this a classy touch.  Fair play to them:

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jo-cox-conservatives-will-not-contest-batley-and-spen-byelection-after-murder-of-labour-mp-a3274721.html

 

[Esmond Million's Bung]

1 hour ago, LondonBristolian said:

I don't think anyone's claiming any kind of group was involved.  I'm not entirely sure who you think would/might be claiming responsibility?  All the evidence suggested he acted alone.  That doesn't necessarily mean there was no political element though.  There's no evidence the San Bernardino killers, Omar Mateen or the guy who stabbed someone at Leytonstone tube whilst shouting "Allah Akbar" were acting on the orders or plans of any particular group but I think most would accept there was a political aspect to what they did regardless.

Once again I'm going to emphaise I've over a decade's experience of working with people with mental health impairments and the idea that "mental disorder" is a motive or a reason someone commits a crime in and of itself doesn't really hold water.  It might make people more likely to act on particular motives or grudges but people don't really kill because they have a mental health impairment.  There'd usually be some other motive and "mental health" itself might make him more likely to act but it isn't a reason.

Meanwhile more evidence seems to be emerging that he had an interest in far-right literature...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/17/jo-cox-suspect-thomas-mair-bought-gun-manuals-from-us-neo-nazis-group-claims

I don't agree at all with the highlighted portion and never will.

I will bow to your experience in the mental health field, but I am still at a loss to understand that a seriously mentally ill, clearly delusional person, apparently working alone can be claimed to be doing it for political reasons, because it would seem to me that those beliefs are a clear part of those delusions, if it's proved that he was working with others within a far right organisation, I may well change my view.

But hey we will agree to disagree

[Fordy62]

I think there have been some links to the far right, but only as far as magazine subscriptions go. 

Sadly it appears that a mix of mental health and far right beliefs have proven a very tragic mix. 

I just hope there aren't any others involved. 

[Moloch]

3 hours ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

I don't agree at all with the highlighted portion and never will.

I will bow to your experience in the mental health field, but I am still at a loss to understand that a seriously mentally ill, clearly delusional person, apparently working alone can be claimed to be doing it for political reasons, because it would seem to me that those beliefs are a clear part of those delusions, if it's proved that he was working with others within a far right organisation, I may well change my view.

But hey we will agree to disagree

Isn't it possible that Omar Mateen was mentally ill?

His ex-wife suggests he was.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3637857/My-parents-saved-life-Orlando-gunman-s-ex-wife-reveals-beat-not-doing-household-chores-survived-mother-father-intervened.html

3 hours ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

I don't agree at all with the highlighted portion and never will.

I will bow to your experience in the mental health field, but I am still at a loss to understand that a seriously mentally ill, clearly delusional person, apparently working alone can be claimed to be doing it for political reasons, because it would seem to me that those beliefs are a clear part of those delusions, if it's proved that he was working with others within an islamist organisation, I may well change my view.

But hey we will agree to disagree

Just wondering....

[Esmond Million's Bung]

1 hour ago, Moloch said:

Isn't it possible that Omar Mateen was mentally ill?

His ex-wife suggests he was.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3637857/My-parents-saved-life-Orlando-gunman-s-ex-wife-reveals-beat-not-doing-household-chores-survived-mother-father-intervened.html

Just wondering....

i'm just wondering as well, i'm sorry but you've completely lost me here, I am saying that he was probably were mentally ill and have alluded to that on this thread and on the Orlando thread and I have alluded to same about the arrested person subject of this thread, so I don't know or understand what you are talking about.

[Moloch]

6 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

i'm just wondering as well, i'm sorry but you've completely lost me here, I am saying that he was probably were mentally ill and have alluded to that on this thread and on the Orlando thread and I have alluded to same about the arrested person subject of this thread, so I don't know or understand what you are talking about.

OK.

So we agree!

 

[Esmond Million's Bung]

9 minutes ago, Moloch said:

OK.

So we agree!

 

i'm interested to know what you actually think it is that you read in my post that brought you to asking your question.

Just wondering, i'd like to know what we might be agreeing about before I commit.

[Moloch]

22 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

i'm interested to know what you actually think it is that you read in my post that brought you to asking your question.

Just wondering, i'd like to know what we might be agreeing about before I commit.

We agree that it is likely that Omar Mateen was mentally ill.

Your post in the Orlando thread wasn't really clear. It's the line where you say "oh yes he's muslim" which could be read as suggesting other motives for his actions.

Quote

Well, his father (allegedly a supporter of the Taliban and a presidential candidate in Afghanistan) said he hated gays, but his ex wife claims he was gay and spent a lot of time in gay clubs.

So, i'm no expert but obsessed gay but gay hating man couldn't handle the paradox and oh yes he's muslim, i'm sure you can fill in any blanks.

And someone who didn't know better might draw conclusions from this, too.

Quote

Typical America really, this guy had been in contact with IS on various websites, on the radar of security services...

However, it seems (in context) that you were commenting on US gun law. To be honest, I wondered if you were saying that Tommy Mair was mentally ill with no agenda, but that Mateen was different.

Given how much I know about both men, I am in no position to comment.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

2 minutes ago, Moloch said:

We agree that it is likely that Omar Mateen was mentally ill.

Your post in the Orlando thread wasn't really clear. It's the line where you say "oh yes he's muslim" which could be read as suggesting other motives for his actions.

And someone who didn't know better might draw conclusions from this, too.

I wondered if you were saying that Tommy Mair was mentally ill with no agenda, but that Mateen was different.

Given how much I know about both men, I am in no position to comment.

Bit of a jump, but I would have thought that you are intelligent enough to know from the tone of my Orlando post, I was being flippant mainly because of my frustration about USA gun laws but also the media frenzy reference his religion and his father.

As for the events of yesterday I am yet again frustrated about the media frenzy surrounding such a tragedy and speed at which some people (some on here) are claiming a political link, I say let's wait and see what happens if this does get to court (bearing in mind he may be unfit to plead) and suggesting that serious mental illness whatever the circumstances might just Trump (no pun intended) the political angle on both of these horrendous acts. I personally don't see the link with single perpetrators like these two.

[Moloch]

17 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Bit of a jump, but I would have thought that you are intelligent enough to know from the tone of my Orlando post, I was being flippant mainly because of my frustration about USA gun laws but also the media frenzy reference his religion and his father.

As for the events of yesterday I am yet again frustrated about the media frenzy surrounding such a tragedy and speed at which some people (some on here) are claiming a political link, I say let's wait and see what happens if this does get to court (bearing in mind he may be unfit to plead) and suggesting that serious mental illness whatever the circumstances might just Trump (no pun intended) the political angle on both of these horrendous acts. I personally don't see the link with single perpetrators like these two.

I wasn't sure, so I thought I'd ask.

I have to admit, I do struggle to be certain when someone is joking when there are no facial and visual cues. I suggest you put some clues in your next post. Maybe a smiley ... or a punchline.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

20 minutes ago, Moloch said:

I wasn't sure, so I thought I'd ask.

I have to admit, I do struggle to be certain when someone is joking when there are no facial and visual cues. I suggest you put some clues in your next post. Maybe a smiley ... or a punchline.

I thought it was pretty obvious, ironic to be sure.

Don't do smileys, I leave that to Mr Facepalm.

 

[BS2 Red]

Reports suggesting Mair is the guy in the middle of this photo.

https://m.facebook.com/OfficialBritainFirst/photos/a.346633882148546.1073741826.300455573433044/890870914391504/?type=3&theater

[Esmond Million's Bung]

11 minutes ago, BS2 Red said:

Reports suggesting Mair is the guy in the middle of this photo.

https://m.facebook.com/OfficialBritainFirst/photos/a.346633882148546.1073741826.300455573433044/890870914391504/?type=3&theater

There are also reports suggesting he taught migrants English, if true I haven't so far seen any reports that he attacked any of them.

 

[Fiale]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3647461/Loner-suspected-murdering-MP-Jo-Cox-crisis-sought-help-health-counsellor-just-24-hours-attack.html

 

The loner suspected of killing Jo Cox appeared deeply disturbed just 24 hours before the attack, a health counsellor said last night.

Thomas Mair said after stumbling into a ‘well-being centre’ on Wednesday night that he was depressed and had been on medication for a long time.

 

Mair’s psychiatric history is at the heart of the police inquiry into the attack – and officers are also said to be investigating links to far-Right groups.

 

The counsellor who spoke to him for about 15 minutes on Wednesday said she realised he was in ‘some sort of crisis’ and there appeared to be a ‘real problem’.

The next day, the unemployed gardener was arrested after allegedly shooting and stabbing the Labour MP to death outside her constituency surgery in West Yorkshire.

Neighbours said the obsessive recluse was often seen wandering around the town and had not received any formal mental health treatment for five years. 

 

 

 

 

[And Its Smith]

Funny that Britain First are moaning about condemning the group due to the actions of one of its members.  The irony is completely lost on them.

[northsomersetred]

Couldn't care less about her.

She is the optimum of what is wrong with today's politics and politicians, went to Oxbridge (and for once an MP without a PPE but did a politics degree nonetheless) never done a days work in her life and claims to 'represent the people'.

I expect the real reason will come to light over the next few months why this guy killed her and i'd put serious money that he has mental health issues and has been let down by the NHS due to lack of funding.

The w**kfest the press have got themselves into over this is scary. 

 

 

[And Its Smith]

4 minutes ago, northsomersetred said:

Couldn't care less about her.

She is the optimum of what is wrong with today's politics and politicians, went to Oxbridge (and for once an MP without a PPE but did a politics degree nonetheless) never done a days work in her life and claims to 'represent the people'.

I expect the real reason will come to light over the next few months why this guy killed her and i'd put serious money that he has mental health issues and has been let down by the NHS due to lack of funding.

The w**kfest the press have got themselves into over this is scary. 

 

 

Keep trolling, trolling, trolling.

She had a very high rank position at Oxfam.  Apparently that's not a job though right....

I expect the Tories cuts to mental health might well be a big factor in this. Won't stop them winning the next election sadly in these 'I'm alright jack' times.

[Barrs Court Red]

24 minutes ago, RedDave said:

 

I expect the Tories cuts to mental health might well be a big factor in this. Won't stop them winning the next election sadly in these 'I'm alright jack' times.

I doubt it. These things happened before "austerity" and will no doubt happen after.

We don't even know if mental health issues were the main factor is this attack, or something far more sinister.