LJ post match Adams Park

[Olé]

2 hours ago, The Horse With No Name said:

Basically if you play your reserve team, you get a reserve team performance. 

Not sure what you mean? Easy cliché but bears no relation to the actual facts. Give or take a player (i.e. Kodjia) it was the first team that finished last season, with the addition of Abraham. It could only be classed as a reserve team relative to a group of new signings we played on Saturday, but who themselves largely had no end product, and were improved upon by Reid and Freeman, two of the group last night who you're calling a "reserve team".

It wasn't a reserve team, it was a very capable first team, in line with our investments this season in real first team "depth" the like of which we've not had for years. But as stated by LJ and others, the group were poor tactically, naive, and made bad decisions: our attacking players with the ball didn't build creatively to make space, there was little interplay, just lots of individuals head down trying to take on Wycombe, most of whom got found out easily.

LJ is right to be angry - this group of players at least have either not understood his tactics going forward, or were not bothering to execute them. From various comments I believe LJ football in possession is high tempo short passing to build around the box and create shooting opportunities. Yesterday (and in a way, Saturday) was individuals charging towards the box, not knowing who to pass to, and losing all tempo as they regrouped and retreated.

Incidentally, as in other threads, Agard is evidently leaving (and well he might if he can't get in ahead of Garita). I sense that this news may be cheered by some who perpetually believe we can do better in some positions. But I look at the way LJ is trying to play and I really struggle to see anyone better than Agard after JK and TA - we're not crossing or aiming for a target man, we're looking to spring quick feet around the box. We now have no depth up front.

 

 

 

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

8 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Did LJ say he was 'shocked' that Garita 'needs loads more work'? I thought he just said he 'needs loads more work' which is constructive criticism. You can't say that isn't fair either, as it's pretty likely LJ has made it clear to Garita that he feels that is the case.

Garita was heading to Oldham on loan so we can assume that LJ does think Garita is very much 'work in progress' but there is no harm whatsoever in giving him some minutes in a League Cup game and then saying he needs loads more work - at least it shows a willingness to try and improve the player as well.

Doesn't 'loads more work" include playing a player in a competitive match?

[BCFC_Dan]

9 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

LJ sees him in training every day, he shouldn't be shocked that 'he needs loads of work'.

In fact, hardly fair to be critical of him like that - if he needs loads of work, put him through it, and see positive results, before plunging him into the first team.

If LJ only sees him as L1 or L2 level (at the moment) then get him a loan move lower down the leagues.

If he's decided L1/L2 is his probable limit - even with 'loads of work' - then move him on, because that's clearly no good to us.

 

It's worth bearing in mind that what a football manager thinks and what he says are not necessarily the same thing.

Perhaps Garita has been asking LJ to give him a chance in the first team and thinks he is ready even if LJ knows he isn't. By playing him, then saying what he did, he sends a message that "you're not as ready as you think you are". It doesn't necessarily mean that he doesn't believe he'll ever make it and it might convince the player to do the necessary work.

[Jack Dawe]

1 hour ago, Monkeh said:

he won the game how is that poor management? blame the players they are the ones who didn't perform

Who's the manager managing then?

[Monkeh]

7 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

Who's the manager managing then?

i'm surprised it took some one this long to pick up on contradiction

[Kid in the Riot]

33 minutes ago, Olé said:

Incidentally, as in other threads, Agard is evidently leaving (and well he might if he can't get in ahead of Garita). I sense that this news may be cheered by some who perpetually believe we can do better in some positions. But I look at the way LJ is trying to play and I really struggle to see anyone better than Agard after JK and TA - we're not crossing or aiming for a target man, we're looking to spring quick feet around the box. We now have no depth up front.

I think MA made it pretty clear on Radio Bristol on Monday night that we will be adding another striker to the ranks, which would tally with Agard departing.

Putting 2 + 2 together with something I heard about a month ago, that incoming striker could be one that will set us back a not insignificant amount of money, and would therefore be genuine first team competition for Abraham and Kodjia.

I should add that like you I think Agard is more than decent, but LJ will be the third manager (along with SC and Steve Evans) who isn't convinced Agard is up to regular first team football in the C'ship.

[redcherryberry]

55 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Did LJ say he was 'shocked' that Garita 'needs loads more work'? I thought he just said he 'needs loads more work' which is constructive criticism. You can't say that isn't fair either, as it's pretty likely LJ has made it clear to Garita that he feels that is the case.

Garita was heading to Oldham on loan so we can assume that LJ does think Garita is very much 'work in progress' but there is no harm whatsoever in giving him some minutes in a League Cup game and then saying he needs loads more work - at least it shows a willingness to try and improve the player as well.

Yep & including Garita yesterday was a chance to see how far away the lad is whilst also putting him on show to all the L1, 2 & Conference scouts that were at Adams Park last night. I'm sure I we were 2/3-0 up Diego may of come on as he's another who needs 'mens' football.

[spudski]

One thing fans are going to have to get in their head, is that LJ will be giving chances to certain players to prove themselves.

It's these types of match's that it will happen in.

The whole ethos of the Club now, is to give players a chance. This is one of the reasons LJ was brought in.

SL recently spoke in an interview about 'managers saying one thing, but doing another'. It was in relation to managers only playing players, that they thought were proven, to basically 'safeguard' their jobs...as it's results driven. He spoke about the Academy and lesser squad players never getting the chance to improve, and that the problem often stemmed with the first team manager never giving these lads a chance. He wants the Academy to work, and see's the problem being first team managers not allowing the progress to happen. This was a major factor to why LJ was brought in.

LJ will also not be frightened to try things in games like this. The fact he changed the formation so many times, was down to the naivety of certain players knowledge of how certain tactics work. This type of match is a good test to see it happen first hand. Training is one thing...in the heat of a match, it's different and telling.

The fact he said, certain players need an experienced head playing with them, to guide them during a match, is also telling.

I'm glad we have this ethos now and a manager that is willing and wanting to do it that way. It will mean patience though, as we will have disappointing performances...but we won, so that is a bonus.

I have only one concern...and that is Tomlin. Imo, he is going to be a frustrating problem in the same way JET was. We all know he's a genius...but it's finding a midfield that will be able to cover for him when he goes wandering.

[RUSSEL85]

12 minutes ago, spudski said:

One thing fans are going to have to get in their head, is that LJ will be giving chances to certain players to prove themselves.

It's these types of match's that it will happen in.

The whole ethos of the Club now, is to give players a chance. This is one of the reasons LJ was brought in.

SL recently spoke in an interview about 'managers saying one thing, but doing another'. It was in relation to managers only playing players, that they thought were proven, to basically 'safeguard' their jobs...as it's results driven. He spoke about the Academy and lesser squad players never getting the chance to improve, and that the problem often stemmed with the first team manager never giving these lads a chance. He wants the Academy to work, and see's the problem being first team managers not allowing the progress to happen. This was a major factor to why LJ was brought in.

LJ will also not be frightened to try things in games like this. The fact he changed the formation so many times, was down to the naivety of certain players knowledge of how certain tactics work. This type of match is a good test to see it happen first hand. Training is one thing...in the heat of a match, it's different and telling.

The fact he said, certain players need an experienced head playing with them, to guide them during a match, is also telling.

I'm glad we have this ethos now and a manager that is willing and wanting to do it that way. It will mean patience though, as we will have disappointing performances...but we won, so that is a bonus.

I have only one concern...and that is Tomlin. Imo, he is going to be a frustrating problem in the same way JET was. We all know he's a genius...but it's finding a midfield that will be able to cover for him when he goes wandering.

Well said, I think this time last season we would have lost our opening game to Wigan and went out the cup last night. There has been progress and I firmly believe we will get better and better. On to Burton who will no doubt be geared up for the game, dont think a draw would be a bad result to be honest but another 3 points would be most welcome :-)

[Drew Peacock]

1 hour ago, Jack Dawe said:

Who's the manager managing then?

Yes, but who is managing the manager?

[Nogbad the Bad]

8 hours ago, Robin1988 said:

I thought Freeman was quite decent without making too much clear-cut. He at least looks sharper than last season.

Garita was a gamble when Cotterill signed him, he's still a gamble in that he might never be the finished product. Oh well, he cost £50k.

It was him or Jimmy tonight, he's been in good form in pre-season and JK was understandably rested ahead of Saturday.

Maybe it didn't turn out to be the best decision in the world, but **** me what an overreaction from @Nogbad the Bad and @billywedlock to a 25-minute cameo I doubt they even saw.

Not at all, my comments are based on Robbored's original post where Garita was the only player named by the manager in what seems to have been a tirade of disappointment. The implication was LJ was surprised at just how raw Garita was, and imo. he shouldn't have been.

I also note the extremely disparaging comments from a number of fans concerning Garita - Ole's 'awful' in the comment I was replying to being typical of many. Iron Man's 'nowhere near good enough for the first team', and billy's 'it's clear he's not ready' being others just on this thread, There have been numerous similar comments on other threads and there's even an underlying current, imo, that he seems to be getting written off by many as something of a joke figure.

It's not fair, imo, to expect much from Garita when you yourself (LJ) have stated he may score goals at L1/L2 - i.e. not at Champ level - and to leave him open to this sort of criticism from fans at the start of his City career when you don't rate him ready yourself ('needs loads of work') is hardly helpful in developing the player.

He should be sent out on loan to L2 without delay, and let's see if there's a FL player in there at all. There's a real danger that chucking him in at the deep end here when he's clearly so raw, and hoping for a prowess not witnessed in numerous training sessions, could extinguish whatever potential he may have.

[Robin1988]

Just now, Nogbad the Bad said:

Not at all, my comments are based on Robbored's original post where Garita was the only player named by the manager in what seems to have been a tirade of disappointment. The implication was LJ was surprised at just how raw Garita was, and imo. he shouldn't have been.

I also note the extremely disparaging comments from a number of fans concerning Garita - Ole's 'awful' in the comment I was replying to being typical of many. Iron Man's 'nowhere near good enough for the first team', and billy's 'it's clear he's not ready' being others just on this thread, There have been numerous similar comments on other threads and there's even an underlying current, imo, that he seems to be getting written off by many as something of a joke figure.

It's not fair, imo, to expect much from Garita when you yourself (LJ) have stated he may score goals at L1/L2 - i.e. not at Champ level - and to leave him open to this sort of criticism from fans at the start of his City career when you don't rate him ready yourself ('needs loads of work') is hardly helpful in developing the player.

He should be sent out on loan to L2 without delay, and let's see if there's a FL player in there at all. There's a real danger that chucking him in at the deep end here when he's clearly so raw, and hoping for a prowess not witnessed in numerous training sessions, could extinguish whatever potential he may have.

He was the only player mentioned as he was singled out in both the Player and BBC interviews for questioning - naturally, as it was his debut. LJ said he did "ok" on the BBC.

Also, when someone's in form, you give them a chance. All the comments you're quoting is with the benefit of hindsight! Perhaps we should send them back to LJ yesterday so he doesn't "plunge him into the first team" (which was a 25 minute cameo in a League Cup tie, btw).

Far better players than Garita were dreadful last night. Abraham, O'Donnell and Flint aside, we were garbage.

[Phileas Fogg]

3 minutes ago, Robin1988 said:

He was the only player mentioned as he was singled out in both the Player and BBC interviews for questioning - naturally, as it was his debut. LJ said he did "ok" on the BBC.

Also, when someone's in form, you give them a chance. All the comments you're quoting is with the benefit of hindsight! Perhaps we should send them back to LJ yesterday so he doesn't "plunge him into the first team" (which was a 25 minute cameo in a League Cup tie, btw).

Far better players than Garita were dreadful last night. Abraham, O'Donnell and Flint aside, we were garbage.

How did Williams get on? I guess he'll be competing with Magnusson, how did he compare?

[Nogbad the Bad]

15 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

How did Williams get on? I guess he'll be competing with Magnusson, how did he compare?

Robin's already answered that below PF.

18 minutes ago, Robin1988 said:

 

 Abraham, O'Donnell and Flint aside, we were garbage.

 

[Robin1988]

18 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

How did Williams get on? I guess he'll be competing with Magnusson, how did he compare?

Must admit he passed me by somewhat, especially as when they were on top in the second half it was all down the other end, so maybe a bit harsh on him. I think Magnusson's position is safe thoughh. Him being in number 5 is wrong on so many levels.

[spudski]

8 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Not at all, my comments are based on Robbored's original post where Garita was the only player named by the manager in what seems to have been a tirade of disappointment. The implication was LJ was surprised at just how raw Garita was, and imo. he shouldn't have been.

I also note the extremely disparaging comments from a number of fans concerning Garita - Ole's 'awful' in the comment I was replying to being typical of many. Iron Man's 'nowhere near good enough for the first team', and billy's 'it's clear he's not ready' being others just on this thread, There have been numerous similar comments on other threads and there's even an underlying current, imo, that he seems to be getting written off by many as something of a joke figure.

It's not fair, imo, to expect much from Garita when you yourself (LJ) have stated he may score goals at L1/L2 - i.e. not at Champ level - and to leave him open to this sort of criticism from fans at the start of his City career when you don't rate him ready yourself ('needs loads of work') is hardly helpful in developing the player.

He should be sent out on loan to L2 without delay, and let's see if there's a FL player in there at all. There's a real danger that chucking him in at the deep end here when he's clearly so raw, and hoping for a prowess not witnessed in numerous training sessions, could extinguish whatever potential he may have.

Sorry fella...Can't agree with any of this.

LJ has not implied he was Surprised at how raw Garita is at all. Listen to and read his comments again.

He's said on various occasions before that Garrta is work in progress and needs to learn tactical awareness. He was also put on a strict fitness regime and to lose weight.

What's the point of putting a raw player, who's tactically naïve, loaned out with a L2 club? What's he going to learn there? He's built like a brick shit house...so no worries about 'men's football'. He needs more and more guidance under LJ to become tactically more proficient, especially in the way's we are playing. If he does get loaned out, it will be for other reasons.

As for being opened up for criticism from fans...so what? Coach's and footballers laugh at it, because most know **** all about football and it's workings and just judge on 90 mins they see on match day.

As for LJ 'not rating him'....how do you know that from a comment of 'needs loads of work'? He said JK had the 'tactical awareness of a 16 year old' not so long ago...but it doesn't mean he doesn't rate him.

You can have all the natural ability in the world, but if you are tactically raw, then you'll look stupid in a Professional game.

It's tactical knowledge these guys need...and games to try them out in.

[cidered abroad]

Lee Johnson said “There was tactical naivety – I had to change the formation five times, which is not ideal, but it teaches me a little bit about a couple of the players who need an experienced head in with them and need to be controlled from within the game.
 

The real question is, who are the couple that he is referring to?

Any ideas?

[Kid in the Riot]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

One thing fans are going to have to get in their head, is that LJ will be giving chances to certain players to prove themselves.

SL recently spoke in an interview about 'managers saying one thing, but doing another'. It was in relation to managers only playing players, that they thought were proven, to basically 'safeguard' their jobs...as it's results driven. He spoke about the Academy and lesser squad players never getting the chance to improve, and that the problem often stemmed with the first team manager never giving these lads a chance. He wants the Academy to work, and see's the problem being first team managers not allowing the progress to happen. This was a major factor to why LJ was brought in.

I have only one concern...and that is Tomlin. Imo, he is going to be a frustrating problem in the same way JET was. We all know he's a genius...but it's finding a midfield that will be able to cover for him when he goes wandering.

I wonder who on earth SL could have been referring to?? 

Agree on LT, he's a classic no. 10 and it's difficult to see how he'll work effectively in a team with two of Kodjia/Abraham/Wilbraham playing. More likely away from home he'll start just behind Kodjia but at home it seems LJ is likely to start with two up top.

Guess Tomlin could play as part of a front 3 perhaps as he did at times last season?

[Nogbad the Bad]

17 minutes ago, spudski said:

Sorry fella...Can't agree with any of this.

LJ has not implied he was Surprised at how raw Garita is at all. Listen to and read his comments again.

He's said on various occasions before that Garrta is work in progress and needs to learn tactical awareness. He was also put on a strict fitness regime and to lose weight.

What's the point of putting a raw player, who's tactically naïve, loaned out with a L2 club? What's he going to learn there? He's built like a brick shit house...so no worries about 'men's football'. He needs more and more guidance under LJ to become tactically more proficient, especially in the way's we are playing. If he does get loaned out, it will be for other reasons.

As for being opened up for criticism from fans...so what? Coach's and footballers laugh at it, because most know **** all about football and it's workings and just judge on 90 mins they see on match day.

As for LJ 'not rating him'....how do you know that from a comment of 'needs loads of work'? He said JK had the 'tactical awareness of a 16 year old' not so long ago...but it doesn't mean he doesn't rate him.

You can have all the natural ability in the world, but if you are tactically raw, then you'll look stupid in a Professional game.

It's tactical knowledge these guys need...and games to try them out in.

OK, Spud, that's your opinion, happy to disagree.

BTW, I didn't say LJ didn't rate him, I said 'LJ didn't rate him ready'.

A big difference.

[Malago]

Re Tomlin, MA talked about the forethought that went into signing him.  In the end they decided his ability to change a game was worth the downside of fitting him into a team structure.

i believe the plan is to play two holding midfielders, two wide and one up top and let him play where he wants within that structure.

[Major Isewater]

2 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Did LJ say he was 'shocked' that Garita 'needs loads more work'? I thought he just said he 'needs loads more work' which is constructive criticism. You can't say that isn't fair either, as it's pretty likely LJ has made it clear to Garita that he feels that is the case.

Garita was heading to Oldham on loan so we can assume that LJ does think Garita is very much 'work in progress' but there is no harm whatsoever in giving him some minutes in a League Cup game and then saying he needs loads more work - at least it shows a willingness to try and improve the player as well.

LJ gave Garita a chance after his hat trick in the U21's that , to me , is fine man management. That Garita did n't take his chance is unfortunate but he know nows that he has work to do .

 

[Alex_BCFC]

Garita is not good enough - simple as.

Terrible performance from City but we are through and Abraham looked good.

Hopefully at Burton we can't get a proper team back out there and play like we did 2nd half against Wigan.

[xerox6060]

Excellent interview, always find LJ's interviews very honest and educational.. top man.

[JamesBCFC]

In regards to Garita, even if you've been told you got a lot of work to do before you're ready to start in the first team, it's a huge morale boost if you get given some playing time here and there, even if that's a league cup game against league 2 opposition. 

So if anything, that's good management form LJ right there.

[Son of Fred]

On 10/08/2016 at 07:33, Monkeh said:

he won the game how is that poor management? blame the players they are the ones who didn't perform

We got away with it/out of jail....both matches so far.need to be so much tighter.go to Norwich this disjointed and make no mistake,we will be put to the sword ..