Good result in the end but...

[Robbored]

11 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

You don't score 15 goals from centre half without footballing intelligence. Despite not being the most graceful player, I'd say Flint has pretty good reading of the game and it's an aspect he's really improved on.  

Like most season card holders I've seen Flint play many times and conclude that his strength lies in his build,height and power. He's a strong powerhouse of a CB and has scored a decent number of goals using those assets. 

However......until recently he tended to aimlessly hoof the ball up the pitch just as many other City CBs have done for as long as I can remember. The exceptions would be Mark Shail who was an average CB but excellent with distribution of the ball as was Caulker. Neither of them hoofed it.

I'm sure LJ has educated Flint about keeping possession which is why Flint now keeps his passing simple. Point being - if Flint had natural footballing intelligence he would have needed to be told just how crucial possession is. 

[reddoh]

32 minutes ago, Red_Wizard said:

 

Not true. We had James Milner for England.... and Rooney......Bothroyd.................Ricketts. Ok that's me done.

haven't laughed out loud so much since they went non league 

[Jack Dawe]

1 hour ago, Ivorguy said:

I think some fans overrate Flint. He had a brilliant final season in League 1 but this is the Championship.

Some have claimed he is the best centre half we've ever had at this level

Short memories I am afraid.  Wedlock, Alan Williams to name but two.  One a full international and the other an under 23 international, both for England.  Flint is nowhere near that standard.  This is certainly a position we need to look at, although we may already have signed his replacement, Ekstrand.

 

Couple of points, Ivor. Just for balance and context.

1. The game has been changed to favour attacking play and forwards (the offside law, the tackle from behind, the back pass law, video evidence deterring physical assaults, the perfect pitches etc etc) and there is nowhere to hide for defenders. No longer can a centre half "let the centre forward know he is there" early on and basically hack them until booked, a common way for defenders to "defend" years ago.

2. With only 20 top class clubs now, instead of 22, and only about 30% of the players at those 20 clubs English qualified, Flint is probably performing at a level equivalent to lower 1st Division in the 70s. Take away the imports and all the English players in the Championship would be employed higher up the pyramid, the top half of the Championship English lads would be playing at yer West Hams, Tottenhams, Southampton, Leicester, West Brom, Stoke. Even some at United, Liverpool, Arsenal. Flint would probably be playing for a team in the bottom third of the top league.

Remember, we are currently 9th in the second tier of English football, a game chock full of expensive imports from all over the world, unlike the 1970s, the 50s, or the 1900s.

 

If you are going to compare Flint to players from yesteryear then I think it's only right that the above is taken into consideration. 

 

[BS4 on Tour...]

4 hours ago, Drew Peacock said:

I agree. Comedy defending for both goals.

....and someone said on here he could play for England?!

[RedEyez]

A poor performance from Flint and the fickle fans start calling for him to be dropped. Hes human like the rest of us, give the guy a break. Hes been collosal for us more times than not. People have short memories! 

[RedEyez]

2 hours ago, Shtanley said:

Well I think I'd stick with the current formation. Reid is more than able to play out wide (more able than Freeman IMO) and I think Pack is very unlucky to not be playing in the midfield 2. I hope that Smith coming back won't result in Reid having to settle for the bench as I feel he's very able.

Not sure i agree but fair enough. Not gonna shoot you down for having an opinion like others do but IMO Reid isnt a winger/wide player. Square pegs round holes and all that. We already have plenty of options on that front. I think Reid should keep his place though, I rate him. Like many other have said, its a wonderful problem to have, similiar to other positions in the team. Its something we havent seen or been used to for a long time! Im just really pleased Bobby is firmly in Lee's thoughts as i think he is a cracking little player and can get even better under LJ.

[Shtanley]

6 minutes ago, LeeTomlin10 said:

Not sure i agree but fair enough. Not gonna shoot you down for having an opinion like others do but IMO Reid isnt a winger/wide player. Square pegs round holes and all that. We already have plenty of options on that front. I think Reid should keep his place though, I rate him. Like many other have said, its a wonderful problem to have, similiar to other positions in the team. Its something we havent seen or been used to for a long time! Im just really pleased Bobby is firmly in Lee's thoughts as i think he is a cracking little player and can get even better under LJ.

Although I think Reid is more able playing centrally (CM or number 10) than he is out wide I believe he is better out wide than Freeman, and Smith is definitely better than Reid at CM.

[RedEyez]

2 minutes ago, Shtanley said:

Although I think Reid is more able playing centrally (CM or number 10) than he is out wide I believe he is better out wide than Freeman, and Smith is definitely better than Reid at CM.

Ive never seen BR play wide so cant comment on whether he'd be better than LF out there! Absolutely 100% agree KS is better than BR in the middle though! I would be stupid not to!!

[ChippenhamRed]

3 hours ago, EnclosureSurge said:

What is it he gets away with? Being the most improved City player in the last 2 years? Currently being the best centre-back we've had since Carey (and quite a few before that)? Scoring goals for fun? Putting his body on the line and keeping us in games, like the last game but one, Villa? His incredible improvement in both reading the game (for a big bloke) and his distribution (for a big bloke)? 

I haven't seen him 'get away' with anything since SoD left.

 

3 hours ago, EnclosureSurge said:

I really would like you to name some of his mistakes. The last one I can remember is about this time last year at home to someone, getting skinned. Don't think he's put a foot wrong since. 

Blimey, who are you, his Dad?

Flint makes mistakes just like all Championship players make mistakes. I am not suggesting he is more error prone than anyone else. But during the course of a game he will make the odd mistake, just like any other player, and I am merely suggesting that he is not subjected to quite the same rigorous interrogation of his performance that some other players might be. At no point have I suggested he is a poor player or should be dropped. Quite the opposite in fact - as I've already said, he's one of the first names on the team sheet.

Frankly your inability to even allow anything even approaching criticism of Flint, despite me being at pains to point out how highly I rate the player, supports my argument.

[Son of Fred]

6 hours ago, ChippenhamRed said:

My assessment of the season so far is that we have played the two best sides in the division and lost both by the odd goal.

Take them out of the equation and we've claimed 10 points from 12. I'd say that sounds very promising indeed and suggests we are heading for at least a mid-table finish and could be outside contenders for a playoff spot.

That's hilarious..we will not make the playoffs....noit even 'could be'....take another look,

[Dynamite Red]

The general view I was given by one of the coaching staff at the club is that Flint's goals cover up for some of his defensive frailties, he went into more detail but got the feeling they thought he is a good player but replaceable.

For the type of defender he is I think he is very effective but not sure he fits long-term into the type of team LJ wants to build.

These comments have nothing to do with today. 

[Shtanley]

1 hour ago, LeeTomlin10 said:

Ive never seen BR play wide so cant comment on whether he'd be better than LF out there! Absolutely 100% agree KS is better than BR in the middle though! I would be stupid not to!!

A few times this season and (I think) end of last he's played wide left whilst Tomlin has been central. I think against Derby last season at home maybe. He's got the attributes to play there, (pace, dribbling and the final ball). But I think he's definitely best centrally. The good thing is that when Tomlin is in the 10 role he floats wide left a lot which allows Reid to go into the vacant space in the middle. 

[HoldenBall]

4 hours ago, Ivorguy said:

I think some fans overrate Flint. He had a brilliant final season in League 1 but this is the Championship.

Some have claimed he is the best centre half we've ever had at this level

Short memories I am afraid.  Wedlock, Alan Williams to name but two.  One a full international and the other an under 23 international, both for England.  Flint is nowhere near that standard.  This is certainly a position we need to look at, although we may already have signed his replacement, Ekstrand.

 

Yes I think we all remember the fantastic season Billy Wedlock had in 1906/07. He really adapted to the 2-2-3-1-1-1 formation quickly.

[ChippenhamRed]

47 minutes ago, Robert the bruce said:

That's hilarious..we will not make the playoffs....noit even 'could be'....take another look,

I've just taken another look. We are in 9th place, one point away from the play off places, despite having played the two best teams in the division, and we have assembled a half decent squad this summer. My comment that we will likely finish mid table and could be outside contenders for the play offs is hardly the most outrageous suggestion. Quite why you would find it so "hilarious" is frankly rather strange.

And why you are so keen to rule out even the possibility that we even "could be" contenders is again, very strange.

[Son of Fred]

4 hours ago, ChippenhamRed said:

I've just taken another look. We are in 9th place, one point away from the play off places, despite having played the two best teams in the division, and we have assembled a half decent squad this summer. My comment that we will likely finish mid table and could be outside contenders for the play offs is hardly the most outrageous suggestion. Quite why you would find it so "hilarious" is frankly rather strange.

And why you are so keen to rule out even the possibility that we even "could be" contenders is again, very strange.

We then shall see,Dr....

[Robbored]

2 hours ago, billywedlock said:

What is footballing intelligence ?

GoN and Joe Bryan have it.

Making full use of the ball by making the right decisions with your distribution. Instinctively knowing what to do when in possession by running with ball or when to pass it.

Flint until recently used to hoof it in the same way as numerous City CBs have done over decades of lower league football which of course is where Fint came from. It's common to see lower down but higher up its simply unacceptable to give the ball away in such an unesseccary fashion.

 

 

[ChippenhamRed]

2 hours ago, Robert the bruce said:

We then shall see,Dr....

Rather than just dismiss other people's posts as "hilarious", why don't you try actually offering something constructive and interesting that adds to the debate? Or give some reasons for your opinion? Starting with why you think the suggestion that we will probably finish mid table but could possibly push for a play off spot is apparently so funny.

[Garland-sweden]

Think that every player cant be perfect every game. Ok, Flint was no good yesterday, shit happens. Good that we also have competition in back four..

[Fodbarmyarmy]

Ok, it was comical defending for both goals.... down to communication and poor decision making between defender and keeper....why today?, ...only those two players know.....expect flinty to have blinder at Sheffield on Tues. ...

The thing that worries me is we should have had a few in the bag ourselves by then....and the reason we didn't is possibly playing just the one upfront.... having said that , taking one out of midfield would have reduced our dominance as that is where we over ran them...

Tomlin was at times in the first half playing so deep he was almost back line ...which means his threat is neutralised, and I reckon this sometimes contributes to his frustration and results in his bookings.......2nd he was much further forward and had defenders panicking on the edge of their box every time he was on the ball......

One stand out for me is Freeman poor shooting...he doesn't get many toffees if the saying is to be believed....

Make no bones, this was points dropped, ...not sure but I think it was something like 37 shots....but only something like 8 on target.....If we are to persist with one up front then the midfield shooting has to be improved.....finishing off moves are great but we need them to start picking out the corner of the net ala Pack at Fulham last term...

[EnclosureSurge]

7 hours ago, ChippenhamRed said:

 

Blimey, who are you, his Dad?

Flint makes mistakes just like all Championship players make mistakes. I am not suggesting he is more error prone than anyone else. But during the course of a game he will make the odd mistake, just like any other player, and I am merely suggesting that he is not subjected to quite the same rigorous interrogation of his performance that some other players might be. At no point have I suggested he is a poor player or should be dropped. Quite the opposite in fact - as I've already said, he's one of the first names on the team sheet.

Frankly your inability to even allow anything even approaching criticism of Flint, despite me being at pains to point out how highly I rate the player, supports my argument.

You went on about how he gets away with stuff, but haven't pointed out what. Flint probably makes fewer mistakes than anyone - how many free-kicks does he concede? How many headers does he lose? How many tackles does he lose? How many times is he skinned? How many times is he caught out of his position? How many times does he fail to read a situation? How many times is he found the wrong side of his man? He gives the ball away with some longer passes, but that is not his primary function and can't really be deemed mistakes.

Put simply, I don't buy the argument that his "cult status" has anything to do with your perception he "gets away" with more than others. He just makes far less mistakes than most of the rest of the squad and deserves less criticism, therefore gets less.

Frankly, your inability to even allow anything even approaching a different opinion to yours, despite me being at pains to point out in another post how this is a forum and we are allowed these differing views, supports my argument.

[ChippenhamRed]

4 minutes ago, Fodbarmyarmy said:

Ok, it was comical defending for both goals.... down to communication and poor decision making between defender and keeper....why today?, ...only those two players know.....expect flinty to have blinder at Sheffield on Tues. ...

The thing that worries me is we should have had a few in the bag ourselves by then....and the reason we didn't is possibly playing just the one upfront.... having said that , taking one out of midfield would have reduced our dominance as that is where we over ran them...

Tomlin was at times in the first half playing so deep he was almost back line ...which means his threat is neutralised, and I reckon this sometimes contributes to his frustration and results in his bookings.......2nd he was much further forward and had defenders panicking on the edge of their box every time he was on the ball......

One stand out for me is Freeman poor shooting...he doesn't get many toffees if the saying is to be believed....

Make no bones, this was points dropped, ...not sure but I think it was something like 37 shots....but only something like 8 on target.....If we are to persist with one up front then the midfield shooting has to be improved.....finishing off moves are great but we need them to start picking out the corner of the net ala Pack at Fulham last term...

If playing one up front produces a dominant performance and 37 shots on goal then I certainly wouldn't be changing the formation or the tactics. That suggests the setup is right and after than it's down to individuals, which is something the manager has less control over. That sort of dominance will produce a win more often than not.

[Robbored]

12 minutes ago, Fodbarmyarmy said:

Ok, it was comical defending for both goals.... down to communication and poor decision making between defender and keeper

Make no bones, this was points dropped, ...not sure but I think it was something like 37 shots....but only something like 8 on target.....If we are to persist with one up front then the midfield shooting has to be improved.....finishing off moves are great but we need them to start picking out the corner of the net ala Pack at Fulham last term...

I don't anyone is arguing that yesterday wasn't two dropped points. It's frustrating but it happens.

Time to move on and hope that Flint and RoD can get their communication sorted.......

[samo II]

Was busy post match (curry and cider doesn't eat/drink itself...) but having attended and now slept on it, I thought I'd give my thoughts.

Yes; Flint did not have his best match in a City shirt, and in all honesty he looked a little off the pace even beyond the two mistakes that led to goals (first half got beaten to a couple of loose balls by Rotherham players when he looked most likely).

BUT!  As we have come to expect from Flint over the years, he didn't shy away, and was on the end of everything we threw into their box when putting the pressure on, and I'd argue his distribution was pretty solid all game too.  Let's not forget it was he tangling with the Rothetham defence when the ball broke for Tammy to ram home the first.  He'll feel the pressure with our new lad in, but I expect him to improve because of it; he's risen to these challenges before.

On our oppositon; was utterly disgusting watching them time waste and try and break up play, and I question how any player can take professional pride in their work when they are so clearly trying to disrupt the match.  There is 'gamesmanship' and cheating, and I'm happy to say they are firmly practitioners of the latter.  Seems it takes more than Warnock leaving a club to take the Warnock out of a club, if you get my drift.  Saw nothing about them that made me think they'll stay up, or deserve to - I rarely say it, but based on that shambles of a showing, I hope they get relegated and take that playground nonsense back to the lower leagues.

From our perspective; felt we played really well in patches, though the early goal understandably took the wind out of our sails a bit.  We absolutely deserved something from it, and I don't think anyone watching could argue we were not the better team.  We really should have got a third, and thought their keeper kept them in it (and possibly a late pen call not given from the appalling officials helping Rotherham too; I'd like to see that again).

Impressed with Paterson; both him and O'Dowda came on and added a directness to our attacking play that was lacking.  Paterson is very aware, and found space where others were not before, as well as intelligently linking with Tomlin and Reid.  He also likes to go wide right, which was refreshing (we seems determined to cut inside all the time usually).  Bryan gives us width on the left, but often we struggled on the opposite side.

Freeman in comparison was not bad, but drifts in too much, and he seemingly cannot help but do a step over whenever he has the ball; unfortunately, defenders seem very aware and just let him do it - adds very little to his game. But he moved well and at least tried to be dynamic, and I actually wonder if he might be better playing central, perhaps as a sub for Tomlin, as at least there his tricks can buy space, as wide he's not doing enough to for me.

Conncected to this is the nod I wanted to give to Little; often maligned on here, but for the majority of the first half he was literally our only player on the right hand side, often versus two or three oppositon players.  The lack of cover from whoever is meant to be there (including O'Neil, who seems on brief to cover for our marauding Icelander) means he's often out numbered, but thankfully not completely outgunned - he made one notable error when caught for pace first half, but this was outweighed but several moments of excellent defensive cover and even being our only natural width in an attacking sense on the right.  Two great crosses, one at the end of the first half and one at the start of the second, were like those he'd ping in during the promotion season.  Top game from him yesterday; credit where it is due.

And word to the old Rotherham gent who felt the need to tell me and my dad while leaving that both teams were poor; no, mate, I think you'll find your team were poor, we were unlucky.  Big difference.

We'll player far worse and likely win, and I almost think the nature of this game will gee the lads up for Wednesday - think that will be a facinating contest, and having seen the second half of the Derby game last night and watched them  before this season, I honestly think we should be aiming for three points against them.

[ChippenhamRed]

4 minutes ago, EnclosureSurge said:

You went on about how he gets away with stuff, but haven't pointed out what. Flint probably makes fewer mistakes than anyone - how many free-kicks does he concede? How many headers does he lose? How many tackles does he lose? How many times is he skinned? How many times is he caught out of his position? How many times does he fail to read a situation? How many times is he found the wrong side of his man? He gives the ball away with some longer passes, but that is not his primary function and can't really be deemed mistakes.

Put simply, I don't buy the argument that his "cult status" has anything to do with your perception he "gets away" with more than others. He just makes far less mistakes than most of the rest of the squad and deserves less criticism, therefore gets less.

Frankly, your inability to even allow anything even approaching a different opinion to yours, despite me being at pains to point out in another post how this is a forum and we are allowed these differing views, supports my argument.

Who said anything about not being allowed a different opinion? Just because I defend my own viewpoint doesn't mean I don't respect your right to your own.

You seem to have latched on to my "gets away" comment. This was not a suggestion that he is making countless errors that we ought to be picking up on. But equally I'm not convinced that he does make less errors than the rest of the side, I suspect it's about the same.

If you are insisting on particular examples I do recall he was caught out for West Brom's goal at Ashton Gate last season, when he jumped for a header and missed it, and his man got in behind him.

[exAtyeoMax]

8 minutes ago, samo II said:

Was busy post match (curry and cider doesn't eat/drink itself...) but having attended and now slept on it, I thought I'd give my thoughts.

Yes; Flint did not have his best match in a City shirt, and in all honesty he looked a little off the pace even beyond the two mistakes that led to goals (first half got beaten to a couple of loose balls by Rotherham players when he looked most likely).

BUT!  As we have come to expect from Flint over the years, he didn't shy away, and was on the end of everything we threw into their box when putting the pressure on, and I'd argue his distribution was pretty solid all game too.  Let's not forget it was he tangling with the Rothetham defence when the ball broke for Tammy to ram home the first.  He'll feel the pressure with our new lad in, but I expect him to improve because of it; he's risen to these challenges before.

On our oppositon; was utterly disgusting watching them time waste and try and break up play, and I question how any player can take professional pride in their work when they are so clearly trying to disrupt the match.  There is 'gamesmanship' and cheating, and I'm happy to say they are firmly practitioners of the latter.  Seems it takes more than Warnock leaving a club to take the Warnock out of a club, if you get my drift.  Saw nothing about them that made me think they'll stay up, or deserve to - I rarely say it, but based on that shambles of a showing, I hope they get relegated and take that playground nonsense back to the lower leagues.

From our perspective; felt we played really well in patches, though the early goal understandably took the wind out of our sails a bit.  We absolutely deserved something from it, and I don't think anyone watching could argue we were not the better team.  We really should have got a third, and thought their keeper kept them in it (and possibly a late pen call not given from the appalling officials helping Rotherham too; I'd like to see that again).

Impressed with Paterson; both him and O'Dowda came on and added a directness to our attacking play that was lacking.  Paterson is very aware, and found space where others were not before, as well as intelligently linking with Tomlin and Reid.  He also likes to go wide right, which was refreshing (we seems determined to cut inside all the time usually).  Bryan gives us width on the left, but often we struggled on the opposite side.

Freeman in comparison was not bad, but drifts in too much, and he seemingly cannot help but do a step over whenever he has the ball; unfortunately, defenders seem very aware and just let him do it - adds very little to his game. But he moved well and at least tried to be dynamic, and I actually wonder if he might be better playing central, perhaps as a sub for Tomlin, as at least there his tricks can buy space, as wide he's not doing enough to for me.

Conncected to this is the nod I wanted to give to Little; often maligned on here, but for the majority of the first half he was literally our only player on the right hand side, often versus two or three oppositon players.  The lack of cover from whoever is meant to be there (including O'Neil, who seems on brief to cover for our marauding Icelander) means he's often out numbered, but thankfully not completely outgunned - he made one notable error when caught for pace first half, but this was outweighed but several moments of excellent defensive cover and even being our only natural width in an attacking sense on the right.  Two great crosses, one at the end of the first half and one at the start of the second, were like those he'd ping in during the promotion season.  Top game from him yesterday; credit where it is due.

And word to the old Rotherham gent who felt the need to tell me and my dad while leaving that both teams were poor; no, mate, I think you'll find your team were poor, we were unlucky.  Big difference.

We'll player far worse and likely win, and I almost think the nature of this game will gee the lads up for Wednesday - think that will be a facinating contest, and having seen the second half of the Derby game last night and watched them  before this season, I honestly think we should be aiming for three points against them.

it was his back heel/pass to Tammy, that allowed him to score! 

[samo II]

2 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

it was his back heel/pass to Tammy, that allowed him to score! 

Exactly.  

Flint may have had a couple of ones for the blooper reel earlier on, but so often shows up when we need him.

Think he'll bounce back no problem. 

[Drew Peacock]

10 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

....and someone said on here he could play for England?!

With defending like that he would fit right in.......  

[EnclosureSurge]

32 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Who said anything about not being allowed a different opinion? Just because I defend my own viewpoint doesn't mean I don't respect your right to your own.

You seem to have latched on to my "gets away" comment. This was not a suggestion that he is making countless errors that we ought to be picking up on. But equally I'm not convinced that he does make less errors than the rest of the side, I suspect it's about the same.

If you are insisting on particular examples I do recall he was caught out for West Brom's goal at Ashton Gate last season, when he jumped for a header and missed it, and his man got in behind him.

Fair enough.

[samo II]

1 minute ago, NeilS said:

We came out sloppy, and that is very poor, a early gifted goal was a real bonus to them they deserved nothing from the game but shared the points, Lee needs to get the c/b pairing sorted, I don't care what combination, even if Flint is dropped.

I do agree; we need a little work on the central two, but I'd not say immediately dropping Flint if the answer.

Currently we rely heavily on O'Neil dropping in to cover for Magnússon, who very much likes a trot up field; we can't do that against teams who press high (which Rotherham didn't) so we'll need a solution.

That said; add Pack or Smith into the midfield and I don't see that as a problem, as you've the 'pivot' in front of O'Neil, who can give them the out ball and cover further up.

I'd also say that a back three should certainly be on the cards; we know Little can play in that system (arguably better than as a right back), and wager Golbourne would not look out of place.  It certainly isn't something I'd rule out with the personel we have now.

[redfieldred]

11 hours ago, EnclosureSurge said:

No, the over-reaction is to start questioning whether Flint should be dropped, and after half a mistake in today's game - because, let's be honest the first goal was both his and O'Donnell's fault (for me, more the keeper in that situation, but Flint could have dealt with it more quickly as he was nearer). The second, nine times out of ten Flint puts that in row Z and is applauded; today, bad luck, he put it through his own net but was doing the right thing, especially given the indecision of his GK in the first half.

If I'm over-reacting, it's to the over-reaction of those considering whether he should be picked/dropped. He's an absolute shoe-in, one of the first, if not THE first, name on the team sheet. 

And I am entirely in my own right to go OTT if I wish, it's a forum. Likewise you or anyone else can have your reaction, understated or OTT. It's a forum, it's what forums are for; it's either that or fisticuffs in a pub. Don't see anything whatsoever bizarre about what I've put here. Do you read this forum? If my reaction is bizarre, what adjective are you using for others' reactions?

The problem with Flint yesterday was poor communication with his keeper x 2. I think the 2nd goal was a result of the first. SOD would have called for the first goal which is why Flint didn't deal with it. Poor decision by SOD to come for the ball. Flint had it covered. So the second goal, SOD calls again I reckon. This time Flint thinks. No I'm dealing with this! Poor decision by Flint this time.

do you drop a player of undoubted strength and ability for one poor decision, or poor communication?  Remember port vale when his poor back pass cost us 2 points. Had we dropped him after that he wouldn't even be at the club now I reckon,