spudski Posted September 21, 2016 Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 ... I often see posts on here regarding the Results of our Development squads. Often people saying 'they need to learn a winning mentality'. I was reading the attached link about the structure of Barcelona's academy...and one paragraph jumped out at me, which I thought I'd post on here, just so it can be understood, that in Development football, 'Results are not the end goal'. Perhaps a 'League structure should be taken away, so their are no points to play for or any league to win? Quote... 1250 hours of competitive partidillos (practice matches). These are competitive in the sense of perfecting the strategies and philosophical ideologies but games are not played for points or a place in a competition, therefore the result is not important. It is said that Iniesta and Xavi lost more matches than they won between the ages of eighteen and nineteen and won nothing at all from the ages of twelve and fourteen Link to article... http://inspire.football/2015/11/the-structure-of-barcelonas-youth-academy-hour-by-hour/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Skin Posted September 21, 2016 Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 Interesting and something I'd generally agree with. There is a potential conflict here with the desire to get young players out on loan to learn the man's game in a competitive environment. But maybe that comes later once the initial groundwork is done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted September 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 Another quote that will go some way to understanding how footballers in the likes of Spain are better all round footballers is down to the amount of education and coaching they get compared to the UK. quote... Somewhere between Felipe from Rocinha who will achieve 10,000 hours by the age of 13 and the average English footballer who won’t achieve 10,000 hours until his late twenties Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed Posted September 21, 2016 Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 Interesting detail. "We must be inspired by street football" and "Street football is gone and we have to work hard to make up for it". Kids entering La Masia at ten will have done 3000 - 5000 hours of training. In the England kids might get an hour and half training a week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Isewater Posted September 21, 2016 Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 6 minutes ago, spudski said: Another quote that will go some way to understanding how footballers in the likes of Spain are better all round footballers is down to the amount of education and coaching they get compared to the UK. quote... Somewhere between Felipe from Rocinha who will achieve 10,000 hours by the age of 13 and the average English footballer who won’t achieve 10,000 hours until his late twenties Although I forget the source there was an article quoting Roberto Martinez or maybe O'Driscoll, I think , who said that British players won't practice anywhere near as much as overseas players on the basics of the game and rebel against the coaching . Repeating the same movement until it's perfect and second nature on the field of play is too boring for our lads who are well known throughout the world for their ' technique' . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted September 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 @Cowshed and @Major Isewater There is a widely popular belief that approx. 10,000 hrs of 'practice will make you an 'expert' at something. Obviously the age you start, intelligence and other influences will make a difference, but 10,000 hrs is seen as the minimum you need to be 'excellent' at whatever you are trying to achieve. So by that theory...most of English footballers wouldn't be considered 'expert' at their profession until their late 20's. As part of the New Website being set up, It would be really beneficial for fans, if we could have a breakdown by hour of what a first team players 'normal' week was like and that of an Academy player too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed Posted September 21, 2016 Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 "Repeating the same movement until it's perfect and second nature on the field of play is too boring for our lads who are well known throughout the world for their ' technique" That should be practiced from an early age. It is not in England. Many kids will practice endlessly. The opportunity to do so in a environment that hones technique is not present in the UK. Kids do not have the opportunity here as they do in Spain. Have a look what is present in Bristol prior to ten for kids. Under seven eights nines sides (widely varying in standard of coaching) , first steps soccer (superb at what they do), Community trust (hardy technique based), it is directionless. According to Arsene Wenger if a lad has poor technique by fourteen he will never be a player!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted September 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 Indeed repetitive actions from an early age need to be ingrained into muscle memory...so that in the heat of battle it's instinctive rather than an action that's thought about. I had this drilled into me from an early age with Golf. Every one I played with at an early age was playing rounds of golf...I'd spend my time on the practice ground hitting thousands of balls instead. Using my imagination and making up games as I practiced. Saw the fruits of my labour come to fruition as my handicap tumbled down and I started winning comps. All my friends were still hacking it about. Getting to County level and the chance to turn pro came at an early age...because of the hours of practice. You just have to put the hours in regardless of how 'boring' it can seem. You just have to make it fun. Sadly...my only regret in life...not turning Pro. Went to Uni instead...Grrrrrrrrrr ;-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bs3 Posted September 21, 2016 Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 1 hour ago, spudski said: ... I often see posts on here regarding the Results of our Development squads. Often people saying 'they need to learn a winning mentality'. I was reading the attached link about the structure of Barcelona's academy...and one paragraph jumped out at me, which I thought I'd post on here, just so it can be understood, that in Development football, 'Results are not the end goal'. Perhaps a 'League structure should be taken away, so their are no points to play for or any league to win? Quote... 1250 hours of competitive partidillos (practice matches). These are competitive in the sense of perfecting the strategies and philosophical ideologies but games are not played for points or a place in a competition, therefore the result is not important. It is said that Iniesta and Xavi lost more matches than they won between the ages of eighteen and nineteen and won nothing at all from the ages of twelve and fourteen Link to article... http://inspire.football/2015/11/the-structure-of-barcelonas-youth-academy-hour-by-hour/ I agree the result don't matter when you are school boy, it's all about learning the game and practicing technical aspects of the game. However kids like competition and winning so an element of that still should be there. When we get to U23 I can't agree with you. We are now dealing with young men who should be capable of breaking into the 1st team at 20, 21 and 22. Part of there development at that age is also about their mental strength , their will to win and can they handle the pressure of being a professional footballer. So part of the U23 preparation is about playing competitive football and putting players under pressure. The EFL and EPL also take this point of view that's way U23 teams from the top sides were entered into the Football Leauge Trophey this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cidered abroad Posted September 21, 2016 Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 The attention to detail shown by the Barca model is incredible. Do any English clubs come anywhere near? With my extremely limited knowledge of this part of the English development of players, I would only list Arsenal and Man U as clubs that have consistently developed their own. But even this is flawed because Arsenal have bought a good number of sixteen and seventeen year olds who then are seen by many as their own yet they gained so much before joining them. So, maybe I should be nominating Southampton? With relevance to our own situation at City, it is clearly apparent that we have never had a clearly defined pathway from ten to twenty years, with constant changes of coaches who bring their own ideas in which may vary considerably from anyone else before or after them. The "Jobs for mates" system of running the Academy is the main reason for our failure to produce enough of our own. SO'D and maybe McInnes before him are the one's who have done something to give us a clearer focus, but since then SC brought in two "mates" who have since disappeared without trace or regret. With the management structure changes at City in the last twelve months with a Head Coach and a Chief Executive with a footballing background, are we now beginning to follow a more clearly defined path for our young talents to benefit from? We have a few Academy boys that are showing real signs of being able to make the grade. The true test that our academy is working consistently well, will be the numbers of graduates who come through on a regular basis after those we already know about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And Its Smith Posted September 21, 2016 Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 37 minutes ago, Cowshed said: "Repeating the same movement until it's perfect and second nature on the field of play is too boring for our lads who are well known throughout the world for their ' technique" That should be practiced from an early age. It is not in England. Many kids will practice endlessly. The opportunity to do so in a environment that hones technique is not present in the UK. Kids do not have the opportunity here as they do in Spain. Have a look what is present in Bristol prior to ten for kids. Under seven eights nines sides (widely varying in standard of coaching) , first steps soccer (superb at what they do), Community trust (hardy technique based), it is directionless. According to Arsene Wenger if a lad has poor technique by fourteen he will never be a player!! First Steps Soccer is good for 3-4 and 6+. I feel that they go from fun games with a football to dribbling and passing drills too early. It needs to be fun for 4/5 year olds instead of drill after drill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRaw Posted September 21, 2016 Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 51 minutes ago, Cowshed said: According to Arsene Wenger if a lad has poor technique by fourteen he will never be a player!! or get signed up by the gas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed Posted September 21, 2016 Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 A point about FSS is who else out there is attempting what they do? The options are seriously limited. Development centres run schools and training x matches for lads who meet their standards, but its all suffering from sparce facilities, underfunding and a national lack of joined up thinking. The opening post regarding City's under 23 highlights a anomaly from early ages onwards. Still hoping Bristol Sport will open their own facility at Ashton Vale, which could provide a venue for development centres, football schools, the Community trust, BCFC junior sides etc to use as a hub of quality coaching in Bristol. A forlorn hope perhaps, but it would assist those wanting to improve football at grass roots levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted September 21, 2016 Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 2 hours ago, spudski said: ... I often see posts on here regarding the Results of our Development squads. Often people saying 'they need to learn a winning mentality'. I was reading the attached link about the structure of Barcelona's academy...and one paragraph jumped out at me, which I thought I'd post on here, just so it can be understood, that in Development football, 'Results are not the end goal'. Perhaps a 'League structure should be taken away, so their are no points to play for or any league to win? Quote... 1250 hours of competitive partidillos (practice matches). These are competitive in the sense of perfecting the strategies and philosophical ideologies but games are not played for points or a place in a competition, therefore the result is not important. It is said that Iniesta and Xavi lost more matches than they won between the ages of eighteen and nineteen and won nothing at all from the ages of twelve and fourteen Link to article... http://inspire.football/2015/11/the-structure-of-barcelonas-youth-academy-hour-by-hour/ I know what you're saying, and there's much to recommend it. However other development squads presumably practise the same philosophy and a balance must surely be struck between trying out strategies and training ground routines and instilling confidence and self-belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted September 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 Confidence and self belief are instilled...plus they encourage 'creativity' hence the 'Street football' quote. This country has developed from a very early age a win at all costs system. When you are young, they find the biggest and most developed lads for their age and pretty much lump it. You still see skilful players ignored because of their size. OK...it is slightly improving...but that Win at all costs still happens. You only have to watch parents on the side of the pitch to see it. In this Country many of them are trying to live their failings a s a footballer through their kids and want them to win. I've watched development football in spain, Italy, france and Germany...and it's far more common to see and hear parents talking about football in technical terms with knowledge. Praising a pass, or right decision being made in a build up of play ....much more over the result. As at that age it doesn't matter. It means nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted September 21, 2016 Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 Just now, spudski said: Confidence and self belief are instilled...plus they encourage 'creativity' hence the 'Street football' quote. This country has developed from a very early age a win at all costs system. When you are young, they find the biggest and most developed lads for their age and pretty much lump it. You still see skilful players ignored because of their size. OK...it is slightly improving...but that Win at all costs still happens. You only have to watch parents on the side of the pitch to see it. In this Country many of them are trying to live their failings a s a footballer through their kids and want them to win. I've watched development football in spain, Italy, france and Germany...and it's far more common to see and hear parents talking about football in technical terms with knowledge. Praising a pass, or right decision being made in a build up of play ....much more over the result. As at that age it doesn't matter. It means nothing. Yes, I agree Spud. But there is a balance. As all development squads will operate in the same way, someone has to "win" games at that level. So while winning is not the ultimate goal it is for the senior squad, a few victories would be welcomed to give confidence that they are as good as equivalent players at other clubs. When I played the game, I'd have jacked it in if I was on a losing side every week. As I understand it, our youth players habitually face opponents who are much older than them, so perhaps what appears to be poor results can be explained away - and of course heavily caveated (is that a word?) with the explanation you've elegantly stated of what youth football is all about. However I'd not go as far as to say results "mean nothing", merely that results are a secondary consideration. After all, developing good playing technique and the right mentality should lead inexorably to good results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted September 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 @Red-Robbo I see your points fella...however I think things have moved on now, since we played football. Development football is about developing individual footballers not a team. Those Individuals have to work for the team at senior level when it counts for points...not at development level. Hence why they will try different things out during those development games. It's about learning...not winning at that level. They may set up the team to struggle...to make a point....showing how ineffective something is. Then adjust it, to show how it should be done. It's all part of the education. Something that wouldn't be done at League level. Personally I would make all development games 'friendly's...not in a 'League system'. As soon as you have a League to win, then you create an unnecessary pressure on the coaching staff. They start to get judged on where they finish in the league and how many wins they achieve. You are far better off finishing bottom of the development league with no wins, but getting at least half a dozen lads into the first team....than you are winning the development league and not developing one player into the Senior team. That's where the judgement should come....a few years down the line....imo ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Isewater Posted September 21, 2016 Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 12 minutes ago, spudski said: @Red-Robbo I see your points fella...however I think things have moved on now, since we played football. Development football is about developing individual footballers not a team. Those Individuals have to work for the team at senior level when it counts for points...not at development level. Hence why they will try different things out during those development games. It's about learning...not winning at that level. They may set up the team to struggle...to make a point....showing how ineffective something is. Then adjust it, to show how it should be done. It's all part of the education. Something that wouldn't be done at League level. Personally I would make all development games 'friendly's...not in a 'League system'. As soon as you have a League to win, then you create an unnecessary pressure on the coaching staff. They start to get judged on where they finish in the league and how many wins they achieve. You are far better off finishing bottom of the development league with no wins, but getting at least half a dozen lads into the first team....than you are winning the development league and not developing one player into the Senior team. That's where the judgement should come....a few years down the line....imo ;-) To right for the ' pressure ' bit . It's ludicrous that McAllistair is stressed after a loss where half his team are out on loan and the replacements are from Kindergarten ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRock Posted September 21, 2016 Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 ........'they need to learn a winning mentality' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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