Tammy Abraham...do we need to take advantage?

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

Surely if Swansea can go up and make decent fist of it, then we have a chance too?

[Dr Balls]

Clearly promotion has to be the aim and Tammy's goals make it possible. As noted previously a solid team with a striker on form is often the recipe for success at any level. 

If promotion did happen then obviously we would reap the financial reward of parachute payments should we get relegated so it is a win-win situation. Plus our only chance of holding onto Tammy's for exit season is us playing in the Premier League. It is the obvious step up for him & it is what Chelsea will want to see. After that who knows... With Mourinho in charge we might have had a chance to buy him (if we had the money) but I think Conte will bring forward more youngsters if he thinks they are good enough. So don't get to carried away just yet...

At least it's better than struggling down the bottom like last season or a certain team in Wales this. Makes you wonder if Mr Tan has pocketed the parachute payments and is looking to make a quick exit stage left??? Thank god we have SL in for the long term!

[Andy082005]

2 hours ago, Robbored said:

There will be a slight chance that we might get Tammy on another season long loan next season. He's still very young of course and another season in the SBC will be more experience and toughen him up even more.

It depends on Chelsea and of course Tammy himself.

He will be loaned to a Premiership club next year. West Brom had a scout there yesterday already keeping tabs 

[mozo]

1 hour ago, samo II said:

Right now I think it is wise to keep taking it a game at a time regards the potential of this squad.

Next batch of league fixtures will for me give us a much better guide as to how we can fair, as we're playing a number of games where we struggled last season.

- 15/16 results of our Oct/Nov league fixtures 

Cardiff (A) 0-0

QPR (A) 0-1

Blackburn (H) 2-2

Barnsley (A) none - equivalent fixture Bolton (A) 0-0

Brighton (H) 0-4

Birmingham (A) 2-4

Reading (A) 0-1

So in the same fixtures last season (and I've counted as being Bolton away as they went down bottom last year while Barnsley won the 'third' promotion position via the playoffs) we got a total of just 3 points from 21 points.

I really hope we can improve on that, and I'd suggest that 10-12 points m from that group of matches would be phenomenal work, leaving us with 30-32 points from 18 matches, which I think is playoff form.

Realistically we may well fall short of that, and I don't think there would be much shame in that, but that might give us a clearer view of the potential of the side.

My only hope is the players off to represent their nations these two weeks stay fit, our injured/unfit players come back into contention by the time Cardiff away comes around, and we can kick off the busy period after the enforced pause (including that home cup match with Hull) with a victory against the Welsh.

I don't think last season's scores are particularly relevant. Squads and form have changed and Cardiff away and Blackburn home this season represent winnable fixtures. Another 6 or 7 points in the next 3 games would see us well placed in the league and full of belief. The November fixtures are the ones that will present a serious challenge.

[spudski]

I should imagine LJ and MA have a list of players that they would want, depending on what League we are in next season.

I think the most difficult job for any manager, is the right recruitment when you get Promoted to the Prem.

As Tippsy pointed out...Burnley have done the right thing when relegated again. It's got to be the toughest of decisions in football management.

As I've spoken about before...it's all about having the 'Infrastructure' in place to be able to succeed. The right people, knowing how to do their jobs and all pulling in the same direction.

We are still miles from the likes of some smaller teams in the Prem... have you seen the set up Bournemouth now have in place...remarkable.

If it did happen...it would be nice if Tammy could be loaned for another season.

However...there is still value abroad to be found. Which is much better than picking up players that do the rounds between Prem and Championship imo.

Finding the balance is crucial.

[GrahamC]

2 hours ago, ChippenhamRed said:

 

I've seen it said many times on here that we paid the price in 2008 for not strengthening in January.

Sorry, but this is such a myth.

That January we brought in an international midfielder (Nick Carle) and Dele Adebola, who scored as many goals in the second half of the season as our other strikers had managed in a whole one.

Hndsight is great of course but not too many were saying this as we lined up to face Hull..

[Robbored]

9 minutes ago, Andy082005 said:

He will be loaned to a Premiership club next year. West Brom had a scout there yesterday already keeping tabs 

You know that for sure? Scouts from several clubs are at every game and could have been looking at Flint or any other player yesterday.

[Bar BS3]

2 hours ago, Robbored said:

There will be a slight chance that we might get Tammy on another season long loan next season. He's still very young of course and another season in the SBC will be more experience and toughen him up even more.

It depends on Chelsea and of course Tammy himself.

Only if we get promoted. 

Chances are that he'll have a season on loan at a Premiership club next season. 

IF (obviously a massive "IF") but IF we were to get promoted, then why wouldn't that club be us..?! 

[samo II]

7 minutes ago, mozo said:

I don't think last season's scores are particularly relevant. Squads and form have changed and Cardiff away and Blackburn home this season represent winnable fixtures. Another 6 or 7 points in the next 3 games would see us well placed in the league and full of belief. The November fixtures are the ones that will present a serious challenge.

Sure; I don't disagree.

But what I feel looking at last season's equivalent figures does give us is the ability to give us some gage improvement, even with all the changes in both team.

And I'd argue that with the exception of Marshal, Fabio and Jones leaving Cardiff, they are broadly the same squad we faced last year anyway, albeit with perhaps a bit more depth now.  So a direct comparison isn't too far off the mark, at least in terms of how our additions may have made the difference.

But more than that, it goes to show how despite utterly terrible results against many sides last year, we still finished lower midtable and some distance from the playoffs, and even a minor improvement in points haul can make a big difference.

[Andy082005]

3 minutes ago, Robbored said:

You know that for sure? Scouts from several clubs are at every game and could have been looking at Flint or any other player yesterday.

Yeah 100%. 

To be fair...it's hardly suprising I guess. I would imagine a fair few lower Premiership clubs are keeping tabs 

[samo II]

18 minutes ago, Andy082005 said:

He will be loaned to a Premiership club next year. West Brom had a scout there yesterday already keeping tabs 

What a waste he'd be at West Brom; Pulis has managed to screw up (admittedly with the lad's own help) the career of at least one promising English forward in the shape of Berahino, I'd hope Tammy and his advisers would be wiser than letting him go there.

As much as I hope he stays here by some bizarre means (us getting promoted, SL finding £50mil down the back of the sofa), if he does go to a Prem club next year, let it be someone who plays football like Southampton - he'd be an excellent albeit one summer late replacement for Pelle.

[Ivorguy]

Clearly we shall all know more by the time we reach the January transfer window.

We shall know if play offs are a real possibility.

We shall also know if the club will go full steam ahead for promotion, or simply keep to original timetable of building up over a number of seasons

My guess is that whereas last season before summer transfer window the club had two sets of targets depending on which division we were in, they may have similar plans for January.  This is trickier because which division we will be in may well depend if the club tear up the plan and go the hell for it.  Difficult decisions to make.  For example Garita and Vyner may well be squad players next season if we are in the Championship but hardly if we are in Prem.. As for current team two or three quality additions could see us over the line, but if we fail a heavy financial cost before we start next season.  Rather them than me balancing all this, but a quality striker and a quality right back might be minimum requirements.

[Ivorguy]

Clearly we shall all know more by the time we reach the January transfer window.

We shall know if play offs are a real possibility.

We shall also know if the club will go full steam ahead for promotion, or simply keep to original timetable of building up over a number of seasons

My guess is that whereas last season before summer transfer window the club had two sets of targets depending on which division we were in, they may have similar plans for January.  This is trickier because which division we will be in may well depend if the club tear up the plan and go the hell for it.  Difficult decisions to make.  For example Garita and Vyner may well be squad players next season if we are in the Championship but hardly if we are in Prem.. As for current team two or three quality additions could see us over the line, but if we fail a heavy financial cost before we start next season.  Rather them than me balancing all this, but a quality striker and a quality right back might be minimum requirements.

[Ivorguy]

sorry posted twice in error!

[Cider_boy]

28 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

This is trickier because which division we will be in may well depend if the club tear up the plan and go the hell for it.

I doubt they will tear up the plan. Given that SL has stated how embarrassed he was at the amount spent last time we tried to go up, which has formed this new plan that we must become sustainable, I can't see him changing his mind at the very next opportunity to go up.

That said, LJ may have the Kodjia and Bolasie money to spend

[chinapig]

34 minutes ago, samo II said:

What a waste he'd be at West Brom; Pulis has managed to screw up (admittedly with the lad's own help) the career of at least one promising English forward in the shape of Berahino, I'd hope Tammy and his advisers would be wiser than letting him go there.

As much as I hope he stays here by some bizarre means (us getting promoted, SL finding £50mil down the back of the sofa), if he does go to a Prem club next year, let it be someone who plays football like Southampton - he'd be an excellent albeit one summer late replacement for Pelle.

Berahino's problem seems to be his own attitude, not a problem anybody is going to get with Tammy I think.

Nevertheless I agree that Southampton is a good shout as I can't see any chance of Tammy ousting Costa, though Conti may switch to his preferred 3-5-2 I suppose if he can sign some decent defenders.

I just hope Tammy doesn't allow himself to rot in the stiffs. I can't help thinking that if he was at Spurs he would already be in the first team squad for instance.

[robin_unreliant]

2 hours ago, Kingswoodactor said:

We probably need another forward? We spent over 2 million on Gustav! We've not seen what he can do at all yet. Really hope he get's fully fit soon, as I'm sure we're all keen to see him in action in the Championship. 

I presume he must be fit enough to play as he has been on the bench. It does leave me wondering if LJ just hasn't seen anything in training to convince him to play him. Who would have thought a year or two ago that we would spend that on a striker and not even play him! Not sure if I feel this is good (wow look at the quality of our squad) or bad (wow we've wasted a lot on a player who isn't good enough to get in the team).

[JamesBCFC]

I think the public expectations set for the season was top half. Going from the interview with SL.

However I think the aim the players and manager were given was top 6.

A reason for the difference between the 2 is to manage the expectations of fans. 

[JamesBCFC]

15 minutes ago, robin_unreliant said:

I presume he must be fit enough to play as he has been on the bench. It does leave me wondering if LJ just hasn't seen anything in training to convince him to play him. Who would have thought a year or two ago that we would spend that on a striker and not even play him! Not sure if I feel this is good (wow look at the quality of our squad) or bad (wow we've wasted a lot on a player who isn't good enough to get in the team).

Don't think Gustav is 100% fit for this league yet. He played 90 mins in a friendly against Forest Green, but a huge difference between being ready for that and playing against Leeds or Forest. I'd imagine he will be good to go shortly after this international break.

Hat trick on his league debut against Cardiff perhaps

[Lanterne Rouge]

1 minute ago, JamesBCFC said:

Don't think Gustav is 100% fit for this league yet. He played 90 mins in a friendly against Forest Green, but a huge difference between being ready for that and playing against Leeds or Forest. I'd imagine he will be good to go shortly after this international break.

I think we would have liked to be in the position where we were three up with twenty to go and bring him on but we just haven`t been yet.

[robin_unreliant]

3 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

Don't think Gustav is 100% fit for this league yet. He played 90 mins in a friendly against Forest Green, but a huge difference between being ready for that and playing against Leeds or Forest. I'd imagine he will be good to go shortly after this international break.

Didn't we lose 0-3 in that game? Even if he isn't fit enough for this league you would hope he would stand out at that level. Just a touch concerned that he isn't showing what was expected when they bought him. I accept that it is too early to know yet. Probably the pessimist in me looking for something to be down about as everything is going so well.

[Wolf Island]

4 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Still not quite sure what you're asking? Surely you take advantage of any player you have on loan simply by having them

I think what he's saying is that having Tammy on loan is a bit different to having  Simon Cox on loan and we should make the most of it while we have him.

[JamesBCFC]

6 minutes ago, Red Right Hand said:

I think we would have liked to be in the position where we were three up with twenty to go and bring him on but we just haven`t been yet.

I was about to say its just a matter of time until we stuff someone.

 

Then I remember Fulham.

[REDOXO]

4 hours ago, The hand of RO'D said:

This is basically the point I was trying to make thanks ChippenhamRed!

Ive been a part of many forums and this seems to be my problem, I waffle a lot but don't actually put what I'm getting at in my posts, so thanks for your help 

You are way to nice ROD most of us knew what you were getting at. 

For my tuppence, you only have to look at what's in front of you to think everyone inside the club thinks this is as good a chance as we are going to get. A very good squad and the best striker since Andy Cole. LT is a class act and we have that throughout the squad! This is our best chance in eight years and no one wants to play us. 

The players believe We can do this just watch them and that's enough for me to believe they can too!

 

[ChippenhamRed]

4 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Sorry, but this is such a myth.

That January we brought in an international midfielder (Nick Carle) and Dele Adebola, who scored as many goals in the second half of the season as our other strikers had managed in a whole one.

Hndsight is great of course but not too many were saying this as we lined up to face Hull..

Didn't say I agreed with that view, but it's undeniable that it has been stated many times on here since.

Although I would say I'm not sure Adebola was the quite the goal scoring machine you suggest, or indeed the quality of player that we needed to get us over the line that year. If you look at how Hull have been able to hover between the PL and the top end of the Championship ever since, more investment at the time would very likely have paid dividends in the longer term. Although it must be acknowledged that spending never guarantees more success.

Edit - just checked, Adebola scored 16 in 56 for City. 6 goals during season 07/08.  Not exactly Ronaldo...

[Phileas Fogg]

2 hours ago, robin_unreliant said:

Didn't we lose 0-3 in that game? Even if he isn't fit enough for this league you would hope he would stand out at that level. Just a touch concerned that he isn't showing what was expected when they bought him. I accept that it is too early to know yet. Probably the pessimist in me looking for something to be down about as everything is going so well.

None of us have watched him for any length of time, he was injured when he arrived.. I think our recruitment have earned the right to be given the benefit of the doubt. 

A friendly vs Forest Green is pretty meaningless.. it's a chance to experiment and for players to gain fitness.

By the same token - Taylor Moore has barely played since he's arrived. Is he not showing the promise that we expected then?

Young players take time, especially those bought from abroad. Not all will take to the league as quickly as Abraham. Think how long it took Bobby Reid to be consistently effective at this level. 

[BS3rich]

I agree with what the original poster and most are saying about Tammy, it's obvious we're not getting him back on loan unless we go up. 

Another question I have if we finish outside the play offs say 8-10th (which would still be very good and a huge improvement!) is that what other players do we think we will lose? 

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, JamesBCFC said:

I think the public expectations set for the season was top half. Going from the interview with SL.

However I think the aim the players and manager were given was top 6.

A reason for the difference between the 2 is to manage the expectations of fans. 

Sounds about right.  This season has already been mixed.  Two watersheds for me, if that's possible:

1) two decent wins to start off followed by two defeats, then we come to Villa.  Defeat probably puts us bottom half and 3 losses on the spin, confidence possibly dwindling.  But we passed the test.

2) after the Wednesday defeat, crushing defeat having been 2-0 up, we go to Fulham.  We were buoyed by the cup win but 3-2-3 (w-d-l) is middle table stuff.  Again defeat, pushes us bottom half, Fulham going to playing a full strength eleven, like us.  This time we pass the test with flying colours, and back this up with two more wins to take us to 20 points from 11 games (6-2-3) and 5th in the division.

this squad has courage and 3 players that could (more than likely) improve us overall - Smith, Engvall and Matthews have barely kicked a ball for us yet.  Not getting carried away but I expect us to sit around the play-off area for another month or two...and possibly longer.  Ominous! 

[chinapig]

5 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Sorry, but this is such a myth.

That January we brought in an international midfielder (Nick Carle) and Dele Adebola, who scored as many goals in the second half of the season as our other strikers had managed in a whole one.

Hndsight is great of course but not too many were saying this as we lined up to face Hull..

I have repeatedly pointed out that of the strikers signed that window only one scored more than Adebola - Lita, ironically enough - so we couldn't have done much better with the resources we had. But once something becomes received wisdom you can't dislodge it.

As to Hull, Campbell was in a hotel in Bristol when they came in for him. Not a lot we could do about that.

[Lrrr]

If we are in a position to challenge for top 6 still come January I expect the decision of whether to invest will be purely LJ's, I'm sure Lansdown would be happy to provide the money, it would be more a question of whether LJ feels we would need it and where we would need strengthening.