Guest Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 Anyone think it might kick off at weekend? Plenty of anger locally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 1 minute ago, Tomarse said: Anyone think it might kick off at weekend? Plenty of anger locally. No, but it won't be far off, we have had the police ask for more funding she accused them of crying wolf, i think and more security or bad incidents and you will start seeing mass protests Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Red Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 5 minutes ago, Tomarse said: Anyone think it might kick off at weekend? Plenty of anger locally. Wouldn't be surprised. There's a demo at the council offices now and one in Westminster later which could turn ugly. Warm weather this weekend too, which always seems to be a factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTone Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 17 minutes ago, Tomarse said: Anyone think it might kick off at weekend? Plenty of anger locally. Already started in Kensington Town Hall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bend it like brian Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 3 hours ago, Maesknoll Red said: I'm not a civil Engineer, but the original design must have met the existing standards, I can only speculate, but if you cover a building in a non fire retardant cladding, then it catches fire on a summers night, when most windows are open, no amount of internal fire breaks are going to stop it. Add to that, people leaving their flats (not criticising) maybe leaving fire doors open in their panic and you have a recipe for disaster, not envisaged by the original design and plan for fire. Has austerity actually got anything to do with this? The building has been refurbished at a substantial cost, no idea why sprinklers weren't fitted, maybe cost, maybe just because the regs didn't require it. it would have and been signed off at different stages of the job also somewhere along the line the fire brigades fire officer would have signed it of i dont think the fire rating of the cladding has much relevance as the fire seemed trapped in the void behind cladding hence why i said earlier horizontal and vertical fire breaks would have controlled the spread of the fire 3 hours ago, cheshire_red said: Surely fire doors should be self closing? they would have been .....but for some reason people think its ok to remove them as its a pain getting pushchairs in and out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 7 minutes ago, BigTone said: Already started in Kensington Town Hall. Yep... not helping the emergency services who are already stretched but its almost enviable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Maesknoll Red Posted June 16, 2017 Admin Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 3 minutes ago, bend it like brian said: it would have and been signed off at different stages of the job also somewhere along the line the fire brigades fire officer would have signed it of i dont think the fire rating of the cladding has much relevance as the fire seemed trapped in the void behind cladding hence why i said earlier horizontal and vertical fire breaks would have controlled the spread of the fire they would have been .....but for some reason people think its ok to remove them as its a pain getting pushchairs in and out I just don't get how fire breaks between apartments, whether vertical, horizontal or both, would stop a fire that travels on the outside of a building and enters through open windows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daored Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 2 minutes ago, Tomarse said: Yep... not helping the emergency services who are already stretched but its almost enviable. These people have every right to protect and make their point. The worry is that the rent a mob will turn up and this will have a negative impact on the message that needs to be sent out . On the news you can already see people masked up, unfortunately Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTone Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 1 minute ago, Maesknoll Red said: I just don't get how fire breaks between apartments, whether vertical, horizontal or both, would stop a fire that travels on the outside of a building and enters through open windows? A fire sock is normally used around all exterior openings also. Even a standard thermabate used in brick built construction has a fire rating Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 Just now, daored said: These people have every right to protect and make their point. The worry is that the rent a mob will turn up and this will have a negative impact on the message that needs to be sent out . On the news you can already see people masked up, unfortunately No I agree, but anything other than peaceful isn't really helping the situation. It's going off sooner or later, regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bend it like brian Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 5 minutes ago, Maesknoll Red said: I just don't get how fire breaks between apartments, whether vertical, horizontal or both, would stop a fire that travels on the outside of a building and enters through open windows? i will try and explain basically a firestop stops fire ,installed at window jambs and across floor and ceiling levels most of the materials are rated at 1 hour ...the fire was from the 4th to the top within 8 minutes...to put it in a nutshell without all this new insulation and cladding on the building i have no doubt the fire would have been contained over a few floors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhistleHappy Posted June 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 4 minutes ago, Maesknoll Red said: I just don't get how fire breaks between apartments, whether vertical, horizontal or both, would stop a fire that travels on the outside of a building and enters through open windows? Think the fire breaks being suggested are within the external cladding itself .. not internal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTone Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 Just now, bend it like brian said: i will try and explain basically a firestop stops fire ,installed at window jambs and across floor and ceiling levels most of the materials are rated at 1 hour ...the fire was from the 4th to the top within 8 minutes...to put it in a nutshell without all this new insulation and cladding on the building i have no doubt the fire would have been contained over a few floors Agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Maesknoll Red Posted June 16, 2017 Admin Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 Just now, WhistleHappy said: Think the fire breaks being suggested are within the external cladding itself .. not internal. Ah, that makes sense, I was confusing it with interior fire breaks put in during initial build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bend it like brian Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 Just now, WhistleHappy said: Think the fire breaks being suggested are within the external cladding itself .. not internal. thats correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bend it like brian Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 Just now, Maesknoll Red said: Ah, that makes sense, I was confusing it with interior fire breaks put in during initial build. mind you internally where pipes /ducting construction joints breach the floors there has to be fire stops installed there to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTone Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 6 minutes ago, WhistleHappy said: Think the fire breaks being suggested are within the external cladding itself .. not internal. Every apartment should have a fire barrier both internal and external. Each apartment should be a sealed compartment from all others to prevent rapid spread of fire. I've read reports suggesting that this was not shown on planning drawings. Point one is that drawings for planning are much different than those for construction. Point two is that it is common building practice to install fire barriers and there is no excuse not to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northsomersetred Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 This is the French tower block that caught fire with similar cladding panels, doesn't take long to take hold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTone Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 2 minutes ago, bend it like brian said: mind you internally where pipes /ducting construction joints breach the floors there has to be fire stops installed there to correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northsomersetred Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 2 minutes ago, BigTone said: Every apartment should have a fire barrier both internal and external. Each apartment should be a sealed compartment from all others to prevent spread of fire. That's not really feasible, with openable windows and balconies (don't think Grenfell had them) there's no way this can be guaranteed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Maesknoll Red Posted June 16, 2017 Admin Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 5 minutes ago, bend it like brian said: mind you internally where pipes /ducting construction joints breach the floors there has to be fire stops installed there to Possibly why a sprinkler system wasn't installed- I have heard various 'experts' say it would be easy and about £1200 per flat, others say it would be a huge job, especially ensuring the fire integrity after drilling all the walls and floors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTone Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 Just now, northsomersetred said: That's not really feasible, with openable windows and balconies (don't think Grenfell had them) there's no way this can be guaranteed. Yes it is. They say the cavity acted as a chimney causing the fire to spread. Fire barriers would prevent this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bend it like brian Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 Just now, BigTone said: Yes it is. They say the cavity acted as a chimney causing the fire to spread. Fire barriers would prevent this. spot on and because of the venting system in the void thats why it took hold so quick fire stops would have definitely held it back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTone Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 4 minutes ago, Maesknoll Red said: Possibly why a sprinkler system wasn't installed- I have heard various 'experts' say it would be easy and about £1200 per flat, others say it would be a huge job, especially ensuring the fire integrity after drilling all the walls and floors. Cost I think is ballpark without knowing the exact footprint of the building. Ensuring that holes drilled are fire proofed is a simple and easy job with a the relevant expanding filler. Simple job that my Granny could do. Anybody who says otherwise is not an expert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTone Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 Just now, bend it like brian said: spot on and because of the venting system in the void thats why it took hold so quick fire stops would have definitely held it back agreed 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bend it like brian Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 2 minutes ago, Maesknoll Red said: Possibly why a sprinkler system wasn't installed- I have heard various 'experts' say it would be easy and about £1200 per flat, others say it would be a huge job, especially ensuring the fire integrity after drilling all the walls and floors. not really sure on that as ive only been involved in a sprinkler system once...i think a system on all the exit routes not necessarily in the flats would of definitely helped Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northsomersetred Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 Just now, BigTone said: Yes it is. They say the cavity acted as a chimney causing the fire to spread. Fire barriers would prevent this. If you put a barrier in as you suggest it then becomes sealed and prevents airflow and therefore negates the point of having the gap which is to prevent moisture build up. There are other EWI systems around where you don't need this, again probably down to cost. Tragically something like this will now prove to ALMO's TMO's social housing providers that the cheapest quote isn't always the right one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northsomersetred Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 3 minutes ago, bend it like brian said: spot on and because of the venting system in the void thats why it took hold so quick fire stops would have definitely held it back The gap is there for a reason see my post above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bend it like brian Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 i no why the gap is there....and what it dose but in this situation it really hasnt helped....has it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTone Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 4 minutes ago, northsomersetred said: The gap is there for a reason see my post above All external openings in every building are sealed using either a thermabate / fire sock or both. It is common building practice. All external cavities have both a vertical and horizontal fire barrier between neighbouring apartments / house or what ever. Again it is common building practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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